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Thoughts and neurons


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#1    FlyingAngel

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

So human's brain has a limited number of neurons. Thoughts are electric-chemical that run through neurons to neurons. Is it possible to have an unlimited different thoughts? It seems not because we have a limited number of set of possible possible. But what if our neurons is created and destroyed continuously in time? That make the set of possible path always change.

Another question. Is it possible to think about something, some action or some decision that you never done, never thought about; that it never existed in a book, a film or that no one, no animal have every thought about? If yes, what's the method to achieve it.


#2    Resh

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:17 AM

Carl Sagan in his book the dragons of eden and in his series cosmos explains this using bits. Im currently holding the book in my hand but it is too much of a drag to write the information I am refering, if you look for it in pdf format it is on pages 24 and 25 on chapter 2.

Edit: Sorry, in that case he talks specifically about dna, but the book is all about the human brain so if your interested

Edited by Palmy-Ra, 22 March 2013 - 03:19 AM.

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#3    himalyanmystic

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:45 AM

The neurons are too many different figures are quoted by experts,
But connections can have several patterns ,permutations and combinations,
The unconcious captures information continuously, We are only semiaware of the concious mind,
The ability to watch our thoughts till the awareness increases can help ,i say that on my own experience,If we can
watch our thoughts we can have greater creative power,Energy gets wasted in random thoughts,
clear mind has greater power to create original ideas ,retful minds can achieve more,

the strong desire to explore the mind can unravel hidden potential..................... Just my opinion

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#4    StarMountainKid

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:43 AM

FlyingAngel said:

Another question. Is it possible to think about something, some action or some decision that you never done, never thought about; that it never existed in a book, a film or that no one, no animal have every thought about? If yes, what's the method to achieve it.

I'm not sure that this is possible. Our minds are full of what we have learned and observed. In the arts we can create something original, but but it will always be familiar in some way. In science we can discover something new, but all discoveries have antecedents from which their are extensions of.

There have always been some new form of music being created that had not been heard before. Jazz, Big Band, Rock and Roll, new genres of music being developed, but all of these are an evolution of something that had come before.

If there were a method to create something totally new I'd like to learn what it is. I think even if we met some aliens from another star system, their culture would not be totally unique.

I think the problem with today's culture is everything has already been done. All we have now are variations of what we have accomplished in the past. I've not seen any new revolutions in the arts or in society in general in the past 30 years or so. I think the last Big Thing culturally was the music of the late '60's and '70's.

I've been waiting for the next Big Thing to happen but now I think it's no longer possible. Unless someone comes up with a method, of course.

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A mind untouched by thought...the end of knowledge.
To see reality loose your opinions.

#5    Alekx

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:59 AM

If we look at it the same way as StarMountainKid, which I agree with to a certain point, then everything already has an antecedent which will begin with nature, all ideas are evolution of other ideas and this goes on and on until we get to the point where an idea started with something related to nature.

Himalyanmistic is right, there are different types of neurons, each with their own purpose, the information that we get and that is stored in our brains is thanks to their interconnections with each other and the synapses along with different flow of chemicals in different parts of the brain. Creativity can be considered a cognitive function and at the same time it would be a result of other mixed cognitive functions if we take these to the biological point of view

Edited by Alekx, 05 April 2013 - 08:33 AM.


#6    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 21 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

So human's brain has a limited number of neurons. Thoughts are electric-chemical that run through neurons to neurons. Is it possible to have an unlimited different thoughts? It seems not because we have a limited number of set of possible possible. But what if our neurons is created and destroyed continuously in time? That make the set of possible path always change.
How different? Many thoughts are related or related to things you have experienced.
How would you have unlimited thoughts within a limited amount of time?


#7    goodconversations

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:19 PM

flyingangel, unlimited or countless?

On the second question,


Quote

We believe that infants are born with expectations about the objects around them, even though that knowledge is a skill that's never been taught. As the child develops, this knowledge is refined and eventually leads to the abilities we use as adults.
http://www.scienceda...20124113051.htm

There's also this theory that babies are born with infinite knowledge but fall out of it when they start to talk. Not sure where i read about it but i'm sure i watched a movie based on it.

Edited by goodconversations, 05 April 2013 - 03:51 PM.

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#8    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:36 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 05 April 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

There's also this theory that babies are born with infinite knowledge but fall out of it when they start to talk. Not sure where i read about it but i'm sure i watched a movie based on it.
As ridiculous as that sounds wouldn't infinite knowledge include knowledge of how to communicate?


#9    goodconversations

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 05 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

As ridiculous as that sounds wouldn't infinite knowledge include knowledge of how to communicate?
Indeed! And they do.

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#10    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:39 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 05 April 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

Indeed! And they do.
And yet they can't communicate this infinite knowledge. How convenient.
If babies possess infinite knowledge, learning is rather redundant.

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 April 2013 - 05:39 PM.


#11    FlyingAngel

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 05 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

How different? Many thoughts are related or related to things you have experienced.
How would you have unlimited thoughts within a limited amount of time?
Different as it never existed before. For example we have computers today, but 100 years ago, no one know what the heck it is. In term of neurons and atoms, it's different because it's not the same set of neurons. Within a set of neurons, there is a limited path for electricity to run from point A and B, and probably in circle.

Like with the set of neurons (A,B):
(A,B) => AAABBABABBAAB.... (infinity)

If you cut down into different pieces:
AA, BB, AB, BA is a set of 2 characters that keep on repeating. Analogically, call it the number of possible combination or the number of different thoughts possible.
But, AAA, BBB, AAB, ... is another set but with 3 characters. They may look similar because of A and B (is what you called "related to things you have experienced") but the outcome is a different thought.

It's a completely different thought if you inject another character C in the set.

Time is limited yes because we can die, but within our lifetime, neurons are created and destroyed constantly, thus the set. Imagine if you inject a millions of different characters into the set like above, how much different thoughts would you have?

I think this is the power of the brain that we are unable to unlock. The electricity of our brain keep running from point A to point Z without searching for another new path.

View Postgoodconversations, on 05 April 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

flyingangel, unlimited or countless?
Seems unlimited to me, and it's also countless by humans

Edited by FlyingAngel, 05 April 2013 - 06:12 PM.


#12    Alekx

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:21 PM

Agree with RIyeh, plus babys brains are known to still be in development process after birth, are you referring this infinite knowledge as literally to know everything about anything?

It is actually more important the interconnections between neurons than the number of neurons itself because of synapses, that's how electrical information is transmitted. The regeneration of neurons is not even a well known fact yet, if you look at various books about neurocience you will most likely find they do not regenerate but you look at update sourced you'll find that they really do regenerate

Edited by Alekx, 05 April 2013 - 06:40 PM.


#13    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 05 April 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

Different as it never existed before. For example we have computers today, but 100 years ago, no one know what the heck it is. In term of neurons and atoms, it's different because it's not the same set of neurons. Within a set of neurons, there is a limited path for electricity to run from point A and B, and probably in circle.
You realise computers are based on concepts that existed centuries before? Kind of the whole mathematics thing.


#14    goodconversations

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:29 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 05 April 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

And yet they can't communicate this infinite knowledge. How convenient.
If babies possess infinite knowledge, learning is rather redundant.


View PostAlekx, on 05 April 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Agree with RIyeh, plus babys brains are known to still be in development process after birth, are you referring this infinite knowledge as literally to know everything about anything?
In that sense i suppose you're right. However, here are some links that discuss other senses:

http://www.psycholog...1/brainy-babies
http://www.ted.com/c...t_memories.html
http://www.abovetops...hread544315/pg1

http://www.godlikepr...ssage516208/pg1
http://www.yougabspo...Babies/blog.htm
http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

And here's the opposite:
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Tabula_rasa


Edited by goodconversations, 07 April 2013 - 04:32 AM.

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#15    Alekx

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Postgoodconversations, on 07 April 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

In that sense i suppose you're right. However, here are some links that discuss other senses

(first time quoting, hope I did it right lol)

You got that right goodconversations, even if they are still in development, there are still theories and investigations going on about a baby's memories, which you are some that you listed there. I'd like to focus specially on the first and last link that supports the theories about babies knowing things.

The articles tell us about babies knowing basic things such as the inability for solid objects to go through walls, corporal and sign language, some social interactions and such. Though it's true that they seem to know these things, I think they are due to intelligence. All cognitive abilities together is what forms intelligence, so I think is valid to say that babies use intelligence because they are using natural cognitive abilities to know these things, being this said, I dont think it's knowledge, I think its because of natural capacities using enviornment to produce the first knowledge.
Remember, knowledge is only a small part of intelligence, the rest is brain development, which is the most likely reason why people are naturally more good on certain subjects than others. UM has featured news articles about IQ not determining actual intelligence. Here is the latest one: http://www.independe...ds-8425911.html

I'd also like to add that primitive reflexes are a related example of what I'm saying. Thanks for the links :)





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