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Notes on the Decline of a Great Nation


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#31    DieChecker

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:50 PM

View PostKazoo, on 09 November 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

People since the beginning of civilization have said that about the younger generation.
And now and then it is true. Like now. The US is falling further behind other industrial nations. The percentage of university students studying math, science and engineering has fallen off to a third what it was 20 to 30 years ago. That is why any tech company you were to go look into will have large numbers of foreign born, foreign educated engineers and scientists. I work at Intel, and I've read the reports that Intel can not find enough qualified college graduates to meet its growth goals. And thus hires lots of people out of India,China and other nations.

The students that do graduate many times can not find work. We are training generations of well educated office workers and low level managers. Look at Spain, Italy and France... even before the Recession, the youth there had 25 to 30% unemployment. Is that what we want for the US?

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Your grandfather thought your mothers generation was terrible. Your great grand father thought your grandfathers generation was terrible.  Its just the way things work. People will always be stupid. Get over it. Its not the fault of a culture. Its just a mob mentality and the way people work.
My grandfather was a Coal Miner and died at 40. My dad was a Custodian. I am in Engineering at Intel. My hope for my Son is that he does not have to be a coal miner... because he is so badly educated, that he can't get a job counting the till in a supermarket. I'd like to see the US be respected for its general education once again, rather then Mocked publically by other nations and by our own Policitians for policial gain.

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Culture is always stupid. And it will stay stupid. It won't be the downfall of civilization.
Yeah. You say that till your being tossed into a collosium. Or till you are living under Muslim law. Or till you have no legal rights because there is no US anymore, just a bunch of dictatorships.

It is those who are lazy and decide that what ever happens is OK, that are the ones that allow Empires to Fall. And cultures to disappear. Or, for history to repeat itself.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#32    joc

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:06 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 09 November 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

And now and then it is true. Like now. The US is falling further behind other industrial nations. The percentage of university students studying math, science and engineering has fallen off to a third what it was 20 to 30 years ago. That is why any tech company you were to go look into will have large numbers of foreign born, foreign educated engineers and scientists. I work at Intel, and I've read the reports that Intel can not find enough qualified college graduates to meet its growth goals. And thus hires lots of people out of India,China and other nations.

The students that do graduate many times can not find work. We are training generations of well educated office workers and low level managers. Look at Spain, Italy and France... even before the Recession, the youth there had 25 to 30% unemployment. Is that what we want for the US?


My grandfather was a Coal Miner and died at 40. My dad was a Custodian. I am in Engineering at Intel. My hope for my Son is that he does not have to be a coal miner... because he is so badly educated, that he can't get a job counting the till in a supermarket. I'd like to see the US be respected for its general education once again, rather then Mocked publically by other nations and by our own Policitians for policial gain.


Yeah. You say that till your being tossed into a collosium. Or till you are living under Muslim law. Or till you have no legal rights because there is no US anymore, just a bunch of dictatorships.

It is those who are lazy and decide that what ever happens is OK, that are the ones that allow Empires to Fall. And cultures to disappear. Or, for history to repeat itself.


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#33    me-wonders

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:45 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 09 November 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

And now and then it is true. Like now. The US is falling further behind other industrial nations. The percentage of university students studying math, science and engineering has fallen off to a third what it was 20 to 30 years ago. That is why any tech company you were to go look into will have large numbers of foreign born, foreign educated engineers and scientists. I work at Intel, and I've read the reports that Intel can not find enough qualified college graduates to meet its growth goals. And thus hires lots of people out of India,China and other nations.

The students that do graduate many times can not find work. We are training generations of well educated office workers and low level managers. Look at Spain, Italy and France... even before the Recession, the youth there had 25 to 30% unemployment. Is that what we want for the US?


My grandfather was a Coal Miner and died at 40. My dad was a Custodian. I am in Engineering at Intel. My hope for my Son is that he does not have to be a coal miner... because he is so badly educated, that he can't get a job counting the till in a supermarket. I'd like to see the US be respected for its general education once again, rather then Mocked publically by other nations and by our own Policitians for policial gain.


Yeah. You say that till your being tossed into a collosium. Or till you are living under Muslim law. Or till you have no legal rights because there is no US anymore, just a bunch of dictatorships.

It is those who are lazy and decide that what ever happens is OK, that are the ones that allow Empires to Fall. And cultures to disappear. Or, for history to repeat itself.

How did you know to go into engineering?  I am so frustrated with my family, because my grandchildren do not value education and really screwed up.  I mean, get the loans for college, screw around, and having to drop out with loans they can not repay, no jobs, and just going deeper in the hole.  On the other hand, we have no industry around us to motivate anyone to get a degree in engineering.   For the kind of jobs you are talking about, they would have to move.   I am saying, the high tech jobs, just are not part of our reality, so no one prepares for them.   Expecting our young to prepare for the jobs you are talking about, is like expecting an Eskimo to want all the things we have, and to be movie stars, with absolutely no contact with our culture, and no idea how different our lives from living in ice huts and hunting.  It is a reality too far out of their experience of life.   They can not imagine it and therefore do not prepare for it.

Not long after the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we experience the social upheaval of the 1960 tys.  A decade later we announce a national youth crisis, and shift funding from our elderly population into programs for troubled youth.  If we are aware of anything, it is social problems, not the high tech reality you are living.  In part, those social problems are caused by no longer transmitting our culture, and preparing youth for a high tech society with unknown values.  We stopped preparing them for critically thinking and began programming their brains to function like computers, something is right or wrong, true of false, but this thinking is far to simplistic for real life, so are young a smart (?), but not wise.  They do not know the reality that is being created, and are not in control of anything.  We are doing something wrong, and I would not lay the blame the kids.   We are not being good leaders.


#34    Gromdor

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

The rewards for being an engineer do not match that of wall street.  Someone with the intelligence to do well as an engineer would also do well on wall street.  Which path do you think they should choose?
There is a reason we have a generation of office workers and low level management instead of researchers and engineers.


#35    DieChecker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:54 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 10 November 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

How did you know to go into engineering?  I am so frustrated with my family, because my grandchildren do not value education and really screwed up.  I mean, get the loans for college, screw around, and having to drop out with loans they can not repay, no jobs, and just going deeper in the hole.
I didn't know to go into engineering. But I did like drawing, and building a lot I also tested very high in the traits needed for engineering in Junior High. I suppose they don't do Aptitude testing anymore, since it would show some kids as having no aptitude. Thus all are probably denighed these insights equally... just to be Fair.

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They do not know the reality that is being created, and are not in control of anything.  We are doing something wrong, and I would not lay the blame the kids.   We are not being good leaders.
I suppose that is true. But, I don't really blame the kids. It is the Hands-Off parents and the Go-Into-The-Arts idiot teachers that I would blame. Our modern schools don't steer kids into math and engineering anymore. They are just trying to get them through the system and out of school, to be someone elses problem.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#36    DieChecker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 04:58 AM

View PostGromdor, on 10 November 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

The rewards for being an engineer do not match that of wall street.  Someone with the intelligence to do well as an engineer would also do well on wall street.  Which path do you think they should choose?
There is a reason we have a generation of office workers and low level management instead of researchers and engineers.
There wasn't any shortage of engineers and thinkers in previous decades. Very few actually do uber well at being a doctor or a lawyer. Sure, they might get into the $200k+ paycheck but, as many, many Republicans have noted this election cycle, that is only 2% of the population.

Are you proposing that the new generations of students in the USA are somehow Stupider then those in Japan and India? India has ten times the percentage of students going into engineering that the US does. Not because engineering pays poorly, but because there is no GLAMOUR to being an engineer. Kids today mainly care about the fame and "Likes" a career might get them.

Kids are not any stupider, it is simply that they are mainly concerned with other Cultural factors that will not help them succeed financially.

Edited by DieChecker, 11 November 2012 - 04:59 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#37    coolguy

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

Both partys are to blame.


#38    Gromdor

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 05:17 AM

No, they are not stupid. The intelligent choice is to go where the money is.  Our culture promotes management over engineering/science.  America accepts being a CEO as good qualification for being President of the United States, but turns its nose on a scientist or engineer.  I work around alot of engineers.  They are responsible for multi-million dollar projects.  But, they always have management above them, who get more respect, more say so,  and more importantly, more money.  Kids want to be like Romney not like Stephen Hawking.

Edited by Gromdor, 11 November 2012 - 05:17 AM.


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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 11 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

I didn't know to go into engineering. But I did like drawing, and building a lot I also tested very high in the traits needed for engineering in Junior High. I suppose they don't do Aptitude testing anymore, since it would show some kids as having no aptitude. Thus all are probably denighed these insights equally... just to be Fair.


I suppose that is true. But, I don't really blame the kids. It is the Hands-Off parents and the Go-Into-The-Arts idiot teachers that I would blame. Our modern schools don't steer kids into math and engineering anymore. They are just trying to get them through the system and out of school, to be someone elses problem.

Oh my goodness, what you said is just awful and I am afraid the truth.   The No Child Left Behind Act made matters worse, as the teacher's job depends on how well the kids test, forcing the teacher to teach for the test.   Classes are way too large, and this is another reason students who do not keep up with the crowd, do not do well.  However, Newton and Einstien  were not great students.  They were focused on what was going on in their own brains, not what their peers or teachers were focused on.  I think today, both of these men would live and die without getting anyone's attention, because of merit hiring, and the automatic rejection of anyone who does not have the right formual education and experience.

Interestingly ancient Athens also became focused on technoligical correctness, and brought on its own entrophy. We are closing out creative, independent thinkers and this leads to entropy.  

As for getting to engeering through art, how many children get to explore their artistic potential today?  Art and music are paths to comprehending mathematic concepts, and schools have cut art and music for budget reasons.   Our understanding and reasoning is very poor, and leads to dehumanized humans and social problems.

I am in a hurry but I want to respond to Gromdor.  Especially women look for meaningful work, and this is usually low paying work.  God help the nation where all the whole focus has forgotten human values and is focused monetary reward..   Our very survival depends on engineer type people, and researchers and creative people, and perhaps we need to rethink who deserves the highest pay checks.   I think we are in a revolution against CEO's and that many of us believe their pay is excessive.

Edited by me-wonders, 11 November 2012 - 06:40 PM.


#40    joc

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 06:39 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 11 November 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Oh my goodness, what you said is just awful and I am afraid the truth.   The No Child Left Behind Act made matters worse, as the teacher's job depends on how well the kids test, forcing the teacher to teach for the test.   Classes are way too large, and this is another reason students who do not keep up with the crowd, do not do well.  However, Newton and Einstien  were not great students.  They were focused on what was going on in their own brains, not what their peers or teachers were focused on.  I think today, both of these men would live and die without getting anyone's attention, because of merit hiring, and the automatic rejection of anyone who does not have the right formual education and experience.

Interestingly ancient Athens also became focused on technoligical correctness, and brought on its own entrophy. We are closing out creative, independent thinkers and this leads to entropy.  

As for getting to engeering through art, how many children get to explore their artistic potential today?  Art and music are paths to comprehending mathematic concepts, and schools have cut art and music for budget reasons.   Our understanding and reasoning is very poor, and leads to dehumanized humans and social problems.
No Child Left Behind was a good idea...and it worked...everyone practically can read and write when they graduate...but big whoop...it was an utter failure!  What it really did was make everyone else stand and wait for the rest to catch up...it dumbed down even more the 'whole' system.  Forget teaching history...American History?  Focus on the test...you are so right about that!

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#41    DieChecker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

View PostGromdor, on 11 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

No, they are not stupid. The intelligent choice is to go where the money is.  Our culture promotes management over engineering/science.  America accepts being a CEO as good qualification for being President of the United States, but turns its nose on a scientist or engineer.  I work around alot of engineers.  They are responsible for multi-million dollar projects.  But, they always have management above them, who get more respect, more say so,  and more importantly, more money.  Kids want to be like Romney not like Stephen Hawking.
What you're saying is true. But there is LOTS of engineering opportunity and FEW management positions (at least in comparison to the number of college graduates). Plus those guys that are making the big bucks are all Doctorate level guys or MBAs. So very many people go out looking to get into the glamourous positions and end up with a Bachelors Degree and working in the Aisles at CostCo or Walmart. They are aiming at the big money, and almost all of them will fall short.

It is a cultural problem, IMHO.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#42    DieChecker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:11 PM

View Postjoc, on 11 November 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

No Child Left Behind was a good idea...and it worked...everyone practically can read and write when they graduate...but big whoop...it was an utter failure!  What it really did was make everyone else stand and wait for the rest to catch up...it dumbed down even more the 'whole' system.  Forget teaching history...American History?  Focus on the test...you are so right about that!
I think No Child Left Behind was meant well, but I agree it is not working. It ended up being more like, "Hold Back Most, so The Few Can Pass".

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#43    questionmark

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 11 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

What you're saying is true. But there is LOTS of engineering opportunity and FEW management positions (at least in comparison to the number of college graduates). Plus those guys that are making the big bucks are all Doctorate level guys or MBAs. So very many people go out looking to get into the glamourous positions and end up with a Bachelors Degree and working in the Aisles at CostCo or Walmart. They are aiming at the big money, and almost all of them will fall short.

It is a cultural problem, IMHO.

What did you expect? We promoted a culture to admire whoever has a lot of money, regardless of what he did to get it.

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#44    DieChecker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:21 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 11 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

What did you expect? We promoted a culture to admire whoever has a lot of money, regardless of what he did to get it.
I didn't promote it, or my father, or most of my neighbors growing up... But then we were all "dumb-as-stumps" Rural Republicans. I didn't even understand that people had to have "Special" expensive jeans and shoes till I was off to college.

Now that everyone has a Smart Phone that basically IS the internet, everyone is plugged into what they Need to do to be Cool, or Popular.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#45    joc

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:21 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 11 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

What did you expect? We promoted a culture to admire whoever has a lot of money, regardless of what he did to get it.
True!  But we also promoted a culture with a negative mindset.   The truth is that 98% of all people are never going to make it big...it isn't the 99% vs the 1%...in reality it is the 98% vs the 2%.   But it really isn't a 'vs' situation.  98% of people use the word Can't as a regular part of their volcabulary, immediately followed by an excuse to support the proposition Can't.  2% of the population have figured out that the real game changer is in your own head, that by eliminating the negative words from your volcabulary, you Can achieve remarkable things.

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