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Phoenix - Flares Debunked


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#106    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:50 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 20 June 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Ahh ANZAC day, we are fiercely proud of our ANZAC's my brother used to play the last post each year when I was young at the Penrith dawn ceremony.

Should you ever make it this way, it would be my pleasure to treat you to a fine Australian ale, or a nice red if that is your preference. In fact, I think you would be a more than interesting character to meet in person, and I would love the chance to shake hands. We might be on differing sides of that fence, but that makes you all the more interesting as a person. I do not think I have ever met another individual with such a broad knowledge of case histories on paper or in life. You most certainly have my respect.

Sounds good.  If I ever get up enough ambition to take another long plane ride again, I would like to do that.

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#107    badeskov

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:16 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 20 June 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:

...

Mate, if you ever do make it, I propose we head about 20 minutes up the road from me for lunch (and then some) at the Advancetown Yowie restaurant. :D LINK

Can I come, can I come?! Me too.....:P

Cheers,
Badeskov

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#108    DONTEATUS

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:21 AM

I bet we all make it to psyche101 fav bar B-4 we make it all to THe Space port in New Mexico ! But one things for sure IT will be a wonderful time had by all !
Im all in ! :clap:

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#109    psyche101

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:52 AM

View Postbadeskov, on 20 June 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Can I come, can I come?! Me too..... :P

Cheers,
Badeskov

That is a given, mate you even have a place to stay if ever required! Oz & NZ! :D

But I fear we might be giving the Guinness a nudge ;) I hope enough to see a Yowie!

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#110    psyche101

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:15 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 20 June 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

I bet we all make it to psyche101 fav bar B-4 we make it all to THe Space port in New Mexico ! But one things for sure IT will be a wonderful time had by all !
Im all in ! :clap:

Wouldn't that be nothing short of awesome. All the best UMers in one pub! You Bade, McG, Boony, S2F, Hazz, MID, Lost Shaman, Sky, Quillius, Lilly, mcrom and too many more to mention, my goodness it would have to be at least three days I would think! I hope the beer stocks could handle it!
I did manage to drink an Island dry when working OS for the RAAF on subcontract! Well, me and at least 4 other sparkies anyway. Not that big an island, but still an achievement!


Mate, you need to be here this weekend! Does Sky have any F22's spare?

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Edited by psyche101, 20 June 2012 - 04:15 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#111    krazybradman

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:48 AM

I have always felt that the flares explanation was put forth by the air force to divert people from the "truth".  Does anyone else feel that the way the flares move at 1:02:08 doesn't  match the way the lights move in the 10 pm footage?

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#112    quillius

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:28 PM

View Postkrazybradman, on 20 June 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

I have always felt that the flares explanation was put forth by the air force to divert people from the "truth".  

I feel this is plausible, however another possibility is that they were actually illuminating the area behind the mountains.......(or ofcourse that they were just disposing of them )


#113    Babe Ruth

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:51 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 19 June 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

So after watching a documentary about the case you feel as though you have all the necessary facts to make a well reasoned determination as to the nature of what transpired that night?  Well I have news for you.  I've seen every documentary about the Phoenix Lights that has ever been made, and there isn't a single one that portrays all of the facts about the case.  So if you've only seen one or two, you haven't seen it all, and it will require more than just documentaries to get a full picture.




No, there are only the several that I mentioned and no others.  None that have been released anyway.

Now there were recordings of similar events from the Phoenix area on different dates.  Perhaps that is what you are referring to?

As for the hundreds if not thousands of witnesses, I agree.  A great many people witnessed the events.




Yes, two events, but they weren't related.  The A-10s were on a routine training mission over the Berry Goldwater Range, just as had been going on for years before, and has continued for years after.




Yes, that was the impression of a great many people.  But it wasn't the impression of all of the witnesses.  There were some who saw planes in formation, and they had a better view than everyone else because they were viewing the formation with binoculars and a Dobsonian telescope.  The one piece of footage that briefly captured the earlier event corroborates this conclusion.

But how could so many people have failed to identify something so mundane as planes in formation?

Tell me something Babe Ruth, how many videos of airplanes mistaken as UFOs do you suppose are out on YouTube?  Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.  More keep rolling in every day.  Why do so many people record planes flying at night and say that they are UFOs?

People can mistake planes for something unknown.  It happens all the time.  One thing that people don't do though, is mistake giant triangular shaped alien space craft as planes in formation.  In order to accept that there was a giant alien space craft in the sky that night, we need to assume that Mitch Stanley and Rich Contry, who had the benefit of a telescope and binoculars, mistook that giant alien craft as planes flying in formation.  Or we need to be convinced that they didn't see the same thing that the other witnesses saw, or that they were lying.

According to them they were looking in the same region of the sky as other witnesses, and at the same time.  So unless they are lying...  it was planes in formation.




Perhaps that's because what most skeptical people around here are actually saying is that we haven't seen any credible evidence that aliens are now, or ever have, visited this planet.  We're looking though, and we'd love to see that one case which could convince us.  I am anyway.

Cheers.

I am all for skepticism.  I consider it a virtue and a sign of good analytical thought processes.

However in some cases it can reach a point where skepticism for its own sake brings a sort of intellectual dishonesty.

In the case of this Phoenix incident, saying that there is no way it could be an alien craft seems dishonest to me.  Considering that even Thomas Jefferson and George Washington alluded in their writings to some sort of foreign presence, the phenomenon of UFO is about as old as mankind itself.


#114    DONTEATUS

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:34 PM

Outta da park Bab Ruth !@@ Right on @@. We will only know when the world lets the secrets out !
We are but little cogs in the Monster Machine !

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#115    booNyzarC

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:57 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 20 June 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

I am all for skepticism.  I consider it a virtue and a sign of good analytical thought processes.

However in some cases it can reach a point where skepticism for its own sake brings a sort of intellectual dishonesty.

In the case of this Phoenix incident, saying that there is no way it could be an alien craft seems dishonest to me.  Considering that even Thomas Jefferson and George Washington alluded in their writings to some sort of foreign presence, the phenomenon of UFO is about as old as mankind itself.
Do you consider it to be intellectually honest to avoid and ignore information presented which disagrees with your opinions about things?  Your track record seems to imply that you do, and that under such a definition you are one of the most intellectually honest people I've ever encountered.  Unfortunately, that's not what intellectually honest actually means.

Did I say that there is no way that the Phoenix incident could have involved an alien craft?  I'll say that about the 10 PM event.  It was flares and there is no doubt in my mind about that conclusion.  As for the earlier sightings, I've given three possible ways for it to have been something other than planes in formation, none of which I believe are very likely.


#116    cenobite

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:22 PM

flares and planes in formation, simples, the most obvious explanation is usually right...
conspiracy theorists - you credit the military and governments of this world with far too much intelligence.

TCB

#117    Hazzard

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:33 PM

View Postcenobite, on 20 June 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

flares and planes in formation, simples, the most obvious explanation is usually right...
conspiracy theorists - you credit the military and governments of this world with far too much intelligence.


The hard-core believers usually take refuge in in this explanation, its their "get out of jail free card".

The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the US government. While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance (tantamount to saying "we cant show you good evidence because we havent got it"), and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts. Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the US, where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.

Edited by Hazzard, 20 June 2012 - 03:34 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#118    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:39 PM

View Postcenobite, on 20 June 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

flares and planes in formation, simples, the most obvious explanation is usually right...
conspiracy theorists - you credit the military and governments of this world with far too much intelligence.

During my years as an army officer, I saw all kinds of people, ranging from the very intelligent to the very dumb, and the very crazy to the very sane.  I assure you that they can keep secrets from the public and Congress for decades.  Nothing is easier to prove than that, and by no means only about UFOs.

The biggest change in my lifetime, however, was the Internet, which is more amorphous and far harder to control and manipulate than a few major broadcast networks and newspapers--that were often remarkably timid and conformist.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 20 June 2012 - 03:42 PM.

"The stuff that dreams are made of"

#119    cenobite

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:48 PM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 20 June 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

During my years as an army officer, I saw all kinds of people, ranging from the very intelligent to the very dumb, and the very crazy to the very sane.  i assure you that they can keep secrets from the public and Congress for decades.  Nothing is easier to prove than that, and by no means only about UFOs.
absolute rubbish, if they are so good at keeping secrets explain incidents like abu ghraib that was well kept wasn't it? to quote Dave Mustaine 'military intelligence two words combined that cant make sense' the fact is large numbers of people cannot and will not keep secrets for long its human nature

TCB

#120    cenobite

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:49 PM

and if nothing is easier to prove, then put your money where your mouth is and prove it

TCB




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