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The Atheist Moral Argument


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#46    ciriuslea

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 28 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I think I do understand, and I agree.  If you believe certain things to be moral and immoral largely because of the supposed supernatural repercussions and conform your life to that understanding of morality, I personally am less impressed than the same person being moral out of their sense of compassion and empathy without the promise of reward or punishment.  The former is just obedience and, insofar as it is taken dogmatically, is usually inflexible and not open to improvement; the latter provides more understanding and to some extent does provide the opportunities for improvement as the moral environment changes.

Exactly and well put,


#47    notforgotten

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 28 March 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

No, you didn't lie. It's something worse. Sorry for your conditions.
You needn't feel sorry for me. I've seen more of reality than most people. Some might say that being in touch with more of reality than most people would make me saner than most people. Now, I'm sorry for your condition.


#48    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:16 PM

I personally always liked the germanic.norse's version of morality and have taken it upon myself:

-Courage
-Truth
-Honour
-Fidelity
-Discipline
-Hospitality
-Industriousness
-Self Reliance
-Perserverance

I think that if everyone followed these "guidelines" the world would be a better place (whether the norse/germanic pagans had it right or not!)


#49    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:35 PM

I would strongly recommend adding compassion to the list; I think most worthy virtues and moral standards derive from compassion.


#50    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:36 PM

View Postnotforgotten, on 28 March 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

You needn't feel sorry for me. I've seen more of reality than most people. Some might say that being in touch with more of reality than most people would make me saner than most people.

Well then we've moved from Havoc's, 'how loving of you', to, 'how humble of you', sarcasm intended.  I don't see this as much of an improvement.

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#51    libstaK

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:45 PM

View Postciriuslea, on 28 March 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

That doesn't surprise me, there isn't much that religions don't cover...It would be interesting to know if a similar sentence/passage exists in the Torah. or was that the first time we see it, I personally feel the concept is far older than any monotheistic religion.
You're right, I don't know about the Torah but I'm pretty sure Buddhism covers the same concept.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#52    ciriuslea

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:56 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 28 March 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

You're right, I don't know about the Torah but I'm pretty sure Buddhism covers the same concept.

Karma ?


#53    libstaK

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:04 PM

View Postciriuslea, on 28 March 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Karma ?
Exactly.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#54    ambelamba

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 28 March 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:



Well then we've moved from Havoc's, 'how loving of you', to, 'how humble of you', sarcasm intended.  I don't see this as much of an improvement.

Human mind is such a mysterious thing that is prone to malfunction. Seriously, hasn't he been adviced to get help?

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#55    ambelamba

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:07 AM

As for notforgotten, I did a quick research and it's rather ugly. I dont wanna get modded so I will leave it to you guys. Due to the nature of this community it's a very sensitive issue.  Remember that he sees angels and demons.

And as for me, uncle sam covers my sorry behind for my meager service to this chaotic nation.


They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

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#56    Doug1o29

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:18 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 27 March 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

No matter how morbid the thought, if it were true, then that would mean that there is no such thing as absolute morality.
Wrong on all counts.

Morality has survival value.  It contributes to the well-being and viability of a population.  Populations that develop moral behavior are thus more likely to survive and produce offspring than those that aren't.  Thus, morality is a product of evolution and occurs as readily as any other genetically-determined trait, like brown hair or blue eyes.  The existence of morality is irrelevant to the existence of god.

And that is a very human-centered thing - in other words, it is humanism which some people equate with atheism.

Sorry, but if you argue morality, humanism wins.  And that without even mentioning religion's short-comings in the morality department.
Doug

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#57    Mr Walker

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:35 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 28 March 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

My comment concerning facts was in response to Aquila saying that atheists should just stick to the facts, not that morality or ethics are facts (which they are, they're just not absolute).  It is just noting that theists by the same measure certainly do not just stick to the facts so I see no reason for this admonition to go just one way.



I don't buy this argument.  I have little problem with God condemning non-believers to actual death, my problem is with eternal torment.  For those who believe in that, God has condemned the non-saved, he is the one who set up the effect of every cause. He is the one who says that hell is the punishment for non-believers, no one else did that, and he allows hell to exist in the first place.  If I put you in a room in the center of a house and fill the rest of the house with poisonous gas and instruct you that if you leave this room you will die but you'll be fine as long as you stay in the room, would your death be purely a result of you 'condemning yourself' if you decided to leave this room?  You would be responsible for your ultimate destiny, and I am blameless?  After all, I didn't take away your free will at all.



And unfortunately in the case of eternal torment, he has established an outcome that, to me, is the exact opposite of the morality he has supposedly written in the hearts of everyone.  Feel free to make a case for something you believe is more evil and unloving than eternal torment.  Many of us lowly humans treat domesticated animals better than that.

I dont believe the bible literally but the bible is quite clear. There IS no eternal torture. There is a choce between eternal life of body and soul and  a final death of body and soul. The rest is a particular catholic construction and is not biblically based. So the god of the bible actually says, "Believe in me and have eternal life Do not beolieve in me and die "God actually says " The wages of sin are death" Nothing more. God also promises that all si will be removed from the universe. That can't be done if sinners are eternally existing in "hell"

So, for me, the theology of christianity as expressed in the bible makes a promise of eternal life for ALL who believe. Now we all die. That promise of life after death (true or not) is the foundation stone of christianity. At easter it is particularly symobolised in the physical death and ressurection of christ (in christain faith/belief)

But suppose you do believe in hell. Not one human has to go there. God has already forgiven every human being their original sin and wil forgive any transgression we ask him to if we are sincere. Again, it is entirely our choice as to whether we go to hell, supposing such a place does exist. NO one has to go there if they live a life which  wont send them there, and every human is capable of living such a life using christslife and teachings as a template. Because we are human god forgives our human weakness but if we choose to do wrong then we cop the consequences( in life and natural consequence and in god's system of justice)

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#58    Mr Walker

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:50 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 29 March 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

Wrong on all counts.

Morality has survival value.  It contributes to the well-being and viability of a population.  Populations that develop moral behavior are thus more likely to survive and produce offspring than those that aren't.  Thus, morality is a product of evolution and occurs as readily as any other genetically-determined trait, like brown hair or blue eyes.  The existence of morality is irrelevant to the existence of god.

And that is a very human-centered thing - in other words, it is humanism which some people equate with atheism.

Sorry, but if you argue morality, humanism wins.  And that without even mentioning religion's short-comings in the morality department.
Doug
This is incorrect. Despite the arguments of some behaviouralists, morality is NOT a direct product of evolution. Morality is a human linguistic and intellectual construct, deriving form our abilty to think and speak in symbolic/abstract structures and to know cause and effect and consequence over time.

So morality can only exist as a conscious choice. It requires understanding of cause and effect and an abilty to chose from a range of choices. A  mother lion caring for her baby is not exercising a moral choice but a human parent doing the same thing IS, because she can(and sometimes does) chose to abandon her baby while knowing the consquences.
Morality may NOT have survival value. It may even be counter to surviva. It is based on human beliefs and perceptions not biological realities While some human BEHAVIOURS are driven by biological , social and environmental imperatives, morality is not. It has to be consciously construced on a reasoned basis based on our beliefs and values Thus there Is no belief based morality or ethical systems in the animal world outside of self aware and sapient beings. Remove humans from the solar system and ethics and morality would cease to exist  within it. A dandelion has no morals or ethics. Neither does a  great ape or a lion or a rabbit, a dog or a cat. They have evolved, and learned or socialised, behaviours. Evolution and learned behabviour can make some of those behaviours  beneficial to the animal and even to its species, but that does not constitute morality .

The idea that natural evolved behaviour are necessarily moral, ethical, or good for us, is very wrong and very dangerous to us as, urban densely populated and highly technological beings. We are evoved to recognise and feel emapthy for less than 100 other individuals. That is a counter productive trait in modern society. We are evolved to eat all we can do when food is available. Alos counter productive in modern lifewhen foosd is always available. We are evolved to a fight or flight mecahanism when thinking and logical response, as well as reasoned discussion is a far more productive and less dangerous choice in modern society. We are evolved to live only as long as we are viable breeders. Good luck on developing moralities based around that trait.
Here is one moral /ethical POV that only a human can adopt, and act upon .
"It would be better for the world if humans were wiped out, because we may otherwise destroy ALL life on earth including ourselves. So the most moral and ethical thing for humanity to do is eliminate itself"

Edited by Mr Walker, 29 March 2013 - 03:01 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#59    ambelamba

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:21 AM

Sigh....

http://www.ted.com/t...ave_morals.html

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

-Chief Pontiac (1718-1769)

#60    SurgeTechnologies

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:44 AM

Quote

According to the Atheist / Materialist doctrine, all that exists is the material world. There is no God, Spirits, or a Spiritual Realm. We all just happened to randomly happen into existance, and therefore all we are are random mixtures of chemicals and electrical signals in the brain.

That is basically that, we are not special, just because some fanatic in church/temple tells you so doesnt mean it is real. But at the end it all comes down to ones acceptance to stuff they sell.

My opinion is we really are lucky not so many planets can support life and with such specific string of events that we are here.

Dont you think that if god was ever real he might intervene in many horrific events that took place in course of hes known biblical existence?
In other words if such things as god would exists world would be much different place.

" Technology has exceeded our humanity. "




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