11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Just something fascinating I ran into.

The then lord of the manor, Gilbert de Clare, gave the site in about 1142 to the medieval military monastic order of the Knights Templar, who were seeking ways of financing their role as guardians of the pilgrimage to the Holy Land. They built a town first recorded as "Baudac", later Baldac" (which led to modern day Baldock) - this was the medieval French name for Baghdad which was then the centre of the Muslim world;
http://www.baldockto...of-baldock.aspx

[The Puzzler]

^{Just on that warden, garden thing too:}

The second syllable is easily explained. "Warden", Frisian/Dutch for an artificial dwelling hill, is a designation of a few terps, in accordance with the historical situation.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

The problem is the prefix, which could be interpreted as leeu- or 'leeuw-' (Dutch for lion). Some scholars believe the latter to be true, for a lion is also found in the city's coat of arms. For this to be so, however, an extra "w" would be required. Other scholars argue the name came from the prefix leeu-, a corruption of luw- (Dutch for sheltered) or lee- (a Dutch denotion of a water circulation). The last one suits the watery province of Fryslân

Cognate with Old Swedish lionkin (“lukewarm”),

lee- a Dutch denotion of water circulation...

maybe the word Lumka is actually the same etymology as Leeu in Leeuwarden...meaning some kind of warm water circulation - I dunno, something seems fishy with all the leeu/lews/lauw's...

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Lumka makia could be in any of these words as place names imo. Lew is interesting, a very Frisian word - Leu - didn't you think Lummer once? I can't find that place but thought you did Abe. LAUW in Dutch, any places around that start with that, I'd image so...

From Old Danish ljunken, from Old Norse *ljumka, *lumka ("to warm"), from Proto-Germanic *hlēwanōnan (“to make warm”), *hleumaz, *hlūmaz (“warm”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱal(w)e-, *ḱel(w)e-, *k(')lēw- (“warm, hot”). Cognate with Old Swedish lionkin (“lukewarm”), Old Swedish liumber (“warm, mild, tepid”), Swedish dialectal lumma (“to be hot”), Old Saxon halōian (“to burn”). See lukewarm.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lunken


From Middle English lukewarme (“lukewarm, tepid”), equivalent to luke (“lukewarm”) +‎ warm. First element believed to be an alteration of Middle English lew (“tepid”), from Old English hlēow (“warm, sunny”), from Proto-Germanic *hliwjaz, *hlēwaz, *hlūmaz, *hleumaz (“warm”), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱal(w)e-, *ḱel(w)e-, *k(')lēw- (“warm, hot”). Cognate with Dutch lauw (“tepid”), German lauwarm (“lukewarm”), Faroese lýggjur (“warm”), Swedish ljum (“lukewarm”), ljummen (“lukewarm”) and ly (“warm”), Danish lummer (“muggy”), Danish and Norwegian lunken (“tepid”), Swedish dialectal ljunken (“lukwarm”).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lukewarm

The place you mean is "Lemmer", a place in Friesland.

Just to add to the word-fest, lol, here something from Danish:

Dn: lumsk >> En: insidious, treacherus, cunning

But you suggest - like you did before - that Lumka-makia has something to do with 'to make (luke)warm'.

You wouldn't believe it, but I even tried anagrams for I have the feeling someone is having us on with that name.

But nothing useful showed up.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 15 May 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Just something fascinating I ran into.

The then lord of the manor, Gilbert de Clare, gave the site in about 1142 to the medieval military monastic order of the Knights Templar, who were seeking ways of financing their role as guardians of the pilgrimage to the Holy Land. They built a town first recorded as "Baudac", later Baldac" (which led to modern day Baldock) - this was the medieval French name for Baghdad which was then the centre of the Muslim world;
http://www.baldockto...of-baldock.aspx

Baldock was founded by the Knights Templar (also the name of the town's secondary school) in the 1140s^{[citation needed]}. Perhaps for this reason, one theory of the origin of the name Baldock is as a derivation from the Old French name for Baghdad: Baldac^[2] which the Templars had hoped to conquer during the Crusades. A rival etymology, suggesting a derivation from "Bald Oak", perhaps meaning a dead oak, is superficially plausible, but the early forms of the name are against it^{[citation needed]}. Although the Templars' connections to Baghdad were "tenuous",^[3] it was widely regarded as the most prosperous market in the world and the Templars perhaps hoped that the name would confer a similar prosperity on their own market town in England^{[citation needed]}. The modern layout of the town, and many buildings in the centre, date from the sixteenth century^{[citation needed]}, with the earliest dating from the fourteenth century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldock

Baghdad became Baldac in French...

However this traditional English place, first recorded in 1168, is not what it seems, being named after the Iraqi city of Baghdad, known in French as "Baldac". According to Arabic etymology this means the "city of Dat", with Dat being the personal name of an early Mohammedan monk.

Read more: http://www.surnamedb...k#ixzz1uwqIBeGM

The craftsmen of Baghdad produced a fabric that Italians called Baldacchino in reference to the city known by the Tuscans as Baldacco "Baghdad". From here came the english word baldachin "canopy of state" and french baldaquin.


The second part of the word Baghdad, ie /dad/ "given" is the past participle of the Persian word رارن /dâdan/ "to give", derived from the Indo-European root /*dō/ 'to give'. From here also comes the French word "donner" (latin donar) or Russian дать / dat '/ 'to give', origin of the word дача /dača/ dacha was - before it becomes a "country cottage" - a "donated land" as a reward.
http://french-dragom...-al-mansur.html

I'm no wiser really but it was fascinating...

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

^{Just on that warden, garden thing too:}

The second syllable is easily explained. "Warden", Frisian/Dutch for an artificial dwelling hill, is a designation of a few terps, in accordance with the historical situation.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

The problem is the prefix, which could be interpreted as leeu- or 'leeuw-' (Dutch for lion). Some scholars believe the latter to be true, for a lion is also found in the city's coat of arms. For this to be so, however, an extra "w" would be required. Other scholars argue the name came from the prefix leeu-, a corruption of luw- (Dutch for sheltered) or lee- (a Dutch denotion of a water circulation). The last one suits the watery province of Fryslân

Cognate with Old Swedish lionkin (“lukewarm”),

lee- a Dutch denotion of water circulation...

maybe the word Lumka is actually the same etymology as Leeu in Leeuwarden...meaning some kind of warm water circulation - I dunno, something seems fishy with all the leeu/lews/lauw's...

I wonder how the oldest known name of Leeuwarden fits in all you quoted: "Lintarwde".

It's from the same link.

Maybe you remember that Verwijs (one of the 'suspects') made an error while trying to come to an etymology of this name;: he made a spelling error in  "Lintarwde" and wrote "Lintwerda" on which he based his etymology (which he later withdrew, btw).

And which, as we all know, looks really a lot like the OLB "Linda-wrda" or 'Lindenoorden'.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[The Puzzler]

This map is interesting, for a start it has a large landmass still there below Flieland.

Follow all the way down to the bay shape near Hollandie pars island landform. Look closely. (Obviously click the link and enlarge the map)

I see Lemmer and Lemmerhorn, as well as Ems and in tiny letters right at the bottom, near the page crease, I see ..?elmiude (2 letters at front I can't make out properly).

This would be part of the Flyland flow imo, esp. with that landmass still there, which would have been much larger at one time. The whole flow system, looks to go from Flyland to this area.

http://upload.wikime...rcator)_177.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

This map is interesting, for a start it has a large landmass still there below Flieland.

Follow all the way down to the bay shape near Hollandie pars island landform. Look closely. (Obviously click the link and enlarge the map)

I see Lemmer and Lemmerhorn, as well as Ems and in tiny letters right at the bottom, near the page crease, I see ..?elmiude (2 letters at front I can't make out properly).

This would be part of the Flyland flow imo, esp. with that landmass still there, which would have been much larger at one time. The whole flow system, looks to go from Flyland to this area.

http://upload.wikime...rcator)_177.jpg

The city you couldn't read the name of is IJsselmuiden. And it has that name because it is located near the mouth of the river IJssel.

The 'large landmass' below Vlieland is what I mentioned earlier: an area of land that once connected the Wadden isle Vlieland to the province of Friesland. It doesn't reach beyond the line Medemblik-Stavoren.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[Abramelin]

Because editing gives me severe headaches after the board update, I will post this here:

Yes, Puzz, you are repeating what I posted long ago: that Lemmer would be Lumka-makia, it lies almost directly east of Stavoren, and it would be located in what maybe is East-Flyland (which would probably include the present provonce of Friesland, and thus Lemmer).

-

And it's not 'Ems'', but 'Ens'.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 15 May 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

This map is interesting, for a start it has a large landmass still there below Flieland.

That is a great map!

Thanks Puzzler, and greetings from "Oistereyndt".

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Because editing gives me severe headaches after the board update, I will post this here:

Yes, Puzz, you are repeating what I posted long ago: that Lemmer would be Lumka-makia, it lies almost directly east of Stavoren, and it would be located in what maybe is East-Flyland (which would probably include the present provonce of Friesland, and thus Lemmer).

-

And it's not 'Ems'', but 'Ens'.

.

Well, there you go. That is Lumka-makia area (maybe)  Unless you can stretch Flyland to the River Ems.

Yselmuide - I see.

----------------------------------------

Here's a phrase:
Eala Frya Fresena is the motto for the coat of arms of East Frisia in northern Germany. The motto is often mistranslated as "Hail, free Frisians!", but it was the reversal of the feudal prostration and is better translated as "Stand up, free Frisians!". According to 16th century sources, it was spoken at the Upstalsboom in Aurich where Frisian judges meet on Pentecost and it is traditionally answered with Lever dood as Slaav, or in English, rather dead than slaves.
The motto refers to the legendary "Frisian freedom," a right to accept no rule besides the Holy Roman Emperor and the Christian God.

It's interesting because I don't see the word FRYA much, out of the OLB context.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[Abramelin]

Yes, it sure is a great map !!

--

Thinking of Denmark and the location of Lumka-makia again (and mind you: Vimose is on the isle of Fyn, Denmark):

Abramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

< CHOP >


Now THIS is really interesting:

From page 196:

makija: Vimose II < asm. ‘sword'

Vimose II: mariha aala makija 85


==

I once said that the OLB "Lumka-makia" was no other place but Lemmer, a place in southern Friesland at the coast of the IJsselmeer, and that it may have had to do with whaling. Weird, but "kamakia" is Greek for harpoon...

Now according to this pdf, "makija" (which I think should have been written as ""makia" because someone (Dutch) forgot s/he was writing a text in English) appears to mean "sword".

++++

More about those runes, and about "makija" :

Texts & contexts of the oldest Runic inscriptions - Tineke Looijenga

http://books.google....a sword&f=false

.

[The Puzzler]

Cheers Otharus, glad you enjoyed it, I'm still reading it.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 15 May 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

Eala Frya Fresena is the motto for the coat of arms of East Frisia in northern Germany. The motto is often mistranslated as "Hail, free Frisians!"

LOL I can't help associating that with:

yallah
Arabic word for come on! or Let's Go! Used by people who have lived in the arab world in any contact.
Yallah, let's go!
Yallah, I'm waiting!
Ok, I'll talk to you later. Yallah, bye.
http://www.urbandict...php?term=yallah

[The Puzzler]

It appears the Emude might be Emden - it's E-md in the word is what to look for - it says here that Emden retains this mude word in it. Like the Emuthon you found.

http://books.google....ymology&f=false

Maybe Flyland was a larger named area once, maybe the whole Wadden Sea...

Or maybe IJ as in IJsselmeer is really an E sound  - E (IJ) mouth/mude

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 15 May 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

Yes, it sure is a great map !!

--

Thinking of Denmark and the location of Lumka-makia again (and mind you: Vimose is on the isle of Fyn, Denmark):

Glad I found it.

That's the only page on the internet going on about sword being makija. If there was an etymological connection there would be more on it - it could be - as I said before - rather than sword, is a connection to the word 'mace' - maybe makeja or makija - as in weapon, club - that became 'sword'.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.