2211 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

Ambush Bug, on 22 October 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Seek79,

You are constantly downplaying the power of malevolet spirits or entities, in that they are just figments of the mind and possess no real power. It is all about conquering primitive fears. What if you are just another instrument of their's to deceive, mislead, or surrender the will of others? What if you yourself are deceived?

And dont take it personal because it isnt intended to be, for all we know you could be a fraud? Nothing personal in the comment, you can call my claims fraudalent if you'd like. I wont be offended.

Just my .02 cents.

What if?

Quit a deception and effort  for little old me. Unfortunately as far as i can tell these myths of deception are born of religous dogma and fear, which makes them highly suspect. Religions do not like people like me because we are independently and experientialy spiritual. Cant really control Somone who has a truly personal relationship with the great spirit and can see through all the smoke and mirrors of religion. quite often in the recent past shaman are rounded up and killed or forbidden to practice.

Edited by Seeker79, 22 October 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[Seeker79]

Kazahel, on 22 October 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I think its relevant to the thread. You have said that you believe in good astral entities(spirits)but not bad ones. The original post(er asked for techniques on how to experience them(good or bad spirits). Which is why I asked you. I gave my simple technique and I was curious on yours.




We already went over this in PM ages ago remember. You were using the Tart info from 1969? And that Monroe link you showed me before where it did actually show REM's during his OBE? Remember later I showed you some info on dreaming and how lucid dreaming can occur in non REM sleep. Is this info on the sleep cycles more modern or are you still talking about that stuff we went over before?

And do you think the shamans of old seperated the dreamings. Do you think one would dream and they would say "that was just a dream" and then another would dream and they would say "that was a spirit journey" ?  I just find it hard to imagine they wouldve seperate it into OBE/Dreaming(lucid dreaming). Maybe they did though but I dunno.. I guess this is for another thread though. I guess you seem to think they are seperate while I think they are very closely linked.




I dont understand what you mean by this.



I do the same, I tend to call it how I see it. I get the feeling though you might think I am a demon believer or a Christian. Incase you do I should clear up that I would never call anything a demon because I think that would be rude. To me all things come from God. I've done the online religion tests over time to see what I'm close to. I seem to score high in Neo-Pagan/ Unitarian Universalism/ Mahayana Buddhism.

http://www.unexplain...2   (2011)

http://www.unexplain...5   (2009)

http://www.unexplain...2   (2006)

So I hope my avatar doesnt confuse you or anyone else in any way. And I like your dream catcher by the way..

Well... Yeah. I sort of remember our conversation. I think we ended on the label note. If normal dreams are defined as this and that EEG patterns then what you and I accomplish Is this that with alpha spindals. If you expand the definition of "dreams" to encompass all internal imagery, then i guess we are just dreamers. But normal dreams and the journey are far far different things. Yes shaman listen to their dreams as do i, but the spirit journey is something entirely different otherwise everyone would be shamman. I'm not sure if all shaman had the relative easy meditations we do now, but some had to go to great lengths to achieve the right space for a full blown OOBE. I never consider a journey a journey without 1) doing it I purpose, and 2) without the distinct moment of leaving my body. 3) the cold hard crisp feelings of being OOB. even though I don't doubt journies can be obtained via lucid dreaming, I am only experienced with wake induced methods.

Yes I believe everything comes from the great spirit aswell. Another reason I do not believe demons are evil entities. I believe it's a process to help us shed part of our primitive nature and progress in spirit. But that's just another opinion.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between you and I. Perhaps some philosophical differences. Were you the guy that went after the sleep paralysis "entity" nearly the same exact way I did? did you set a trap for it?

Just a quick note. I don't really consider myself a shaman. I have to much respect for real holymen to take the label for myself. Shamanic practitioner with many eastern influences might be a better label.

Edited by Seeker79, 22 October 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[AshenPhoenix]

This makes me think of the old saying that Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so.  Is it good or bad when a wolf takes down a deer, rips it's throat out and devours it, sometimes while it's still alive.  Is it bad when lightening strikes a tree and causes a devastating forest fire?  Is it bad when an earthquake kills hundreds of people?  It's the circle of life.  It's destruction preparing the ground for new growth.  It's nature's way of dealing with overpopulation.

Are there good and bad spirits?  Seems to me it depends on your point of view.  An oyster must be wounded in order to make a pearl.  It hurts and it's not fun but in return the oyster is left with something beautiful & precious.  To me it's neither good or bad, it simply is what it's meant to be.  It's a matter of cause & effect.

You play with the supernatural without the knowledge of what you're doing, your cause may have an effect you may not like.  Call it 'bad' if you like, but it is what it is.

[Kazahel]

Seeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

I never consider a journey a journey without 1) doing it I purpose, and 2) without the distinct moment of leaving my body. 3) the cold hard crisp feelings of being OOB. even though I don't doubt journies can be obtained via lucid dreaming, I am only experienced with wake induced methods.

I remember the wake induced method you posted. The one you said is best done in the mornings. It was very similar to a method that lucid dreamers call the WILD technique. Wake Induced Lucid Dream.  I tend to think if someone uses that technique(WILD) while thinking/hoping to go out of body that they will most likely create that scene/experience(especially if they have read what to expect). So its hard to tell if someone actually goes out of body or if they have just expected this and thus created it in the dream.

So yeah I'm not sure. Sometimes I call them OBE because of the more real time feeling or scene, I tend to think they are basically the same though but dreaming can have more colourful symbology. So to me any dreamtime is astral time.

Seeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

I don't think there is a lot of difference between you and I. Perhaps some philosophical differences. Were you the guy that went after the sleep paralysis "entity" nearly the same exact way I did? did you set a trap for it?

We do seem quite similar. And yes, you were the one that went after the entity the same way I did. With the timing and everything I thought maybe I had taught you something.

http://www.unexplain...4

And in my last sleep paralysis I actually asked it to be friends. http://www.unexplain...0

Edited by Kazahel, 23 October 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Seeker79]

Kazahel, on 23 October 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

I remember the wake induced method you posted. The one you said is best done in the mornings. It was very similar to a method that lucid dreamers call the WILD technique. Wake Induced Lucid Dream.  I tend to think if someone uses that technique(WILD) while thinking/hoping to go out of body that they will most likely create that scene/experience(especially if they have read what to expect). So its hard to tell if someone actually goes out of body or if they have just expected this and thus created it in the dream.

So yeah I'm not sure. Sometimes I call them OBE because of the more real time feeling or scene, I tend to think they are basically the same though but dreaming can have more colourful symbology. So to me any dreamtime is astral time.






We do seem quite similar. And yes, you were the one that went after the entity the same way I did. With the timing and everything I thought maybe I had taught you something.

http://www.unexplain...4

And in my last sleep paralysis I actually asked it to be friends. http://www.unexplain...0

I'll tell you a little secret, I don't think we leave our bodys at all, I think it's a necessary symbolic gesture to appreciate the shift in awareness.

Dreams to me are scenarios, movie like things that are not do self directed.

Haha that was you!!! Yeah I did that before even joining UM. Funny how we came up with the same solution.

I'll tell you another thing, something i usually leave out of the story so as not to fuel the demon in disquise theories. After pinning it takeing my frustrations out on it, I grabbed it by the face and pulled its hood off. It was a monk like figure, who really did not want to cause me the fear, but had to. To prod me. ( I'm getting this in like an instant telepathic understanding) its job was to push me around until I was emotional and comitted enough to stand up to it. It then pointed downstairs to to where one of my spirit guides was waiting.... That night I learned to fly for the first time, then i bumped up against my real shadow. The following night I had my final duel with shadow and I was free forever from those fears.

I mention this now, because you are makeing friends with it. "It" is actually a valued spirit guide and teacher. That's the name i gave it..."it". He puts you through your paces until you rise up and start to realize the truth.

Good luck my friend. When you have finished with integrating shadow let me know, there is much to discuss after that.

[B Jenkins]

Seeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

What if?

Quit a deception and effort  for little old me. Unfortunately as far as i can tell these myths of deception are born of religous dogma and fear, which makes them highly suspect. Religions do not like people like me because we are independently and experientialy spiritual. Cant really control Somone who has a truly personal relationship with the great spirit and can see through all the smoke and mirrors of religion. quite often in the recent past shaman are rounded up and killed or forbidden to practice.

No, what I pointed out is a double standard working in this thread. I dont consider your views authoritative, the end all be all, is all.

You criticize religion for its "dogma" and "smoke and mirrors". But I dont see you presenting any evidence to back your claims either. It is is just word of mouth and personal convictions.

You can be a deluded individual for all we know with romantic designs of inventing one's self image. And likewise you can make the  same statement towards me. Dont matter.

[Seeker79]

Ambush Bug, on 23 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

No, what I pointed out is a double standard working in this thread. I dont consider your views authoritative, the end all be all, is all.

You criticize religion for its "dogma" and "smoke and mirrors". But I dont see you presenting any evidence to back your claims either. It is is just word of mouth and personal convictions.

You can be a deluded individual for all we know with romantic designs of inventing one's self image. And likewise you can make the  same statement towards me. Dont matter.

My views are absolutely not authoritative, nor would I ever claim they are, thats the shtick of religions. That dosnt mean I will not argue my point if view. No one knows the answer to to the great mystery, not me, not you, not some priest or pastor reading from some book written by men, nor our greatest scientists. I realize that people are threatened by this,  but it is what it is.

"Romanticized...inventing ones self image" Well I'm not the one suggesting that all these fallen Angels have taken an interest in me and go to great lengths to deceive me. I would not consider myself that important, but yes I suppose we should all be responsible for creating our self image.

What sort of evidence should I offer for personal experiences?

Edited by Seeker79, 23 October 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Kazahel]

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Haha that was you!!! Yeah I did that before even joining UM. Funny how we came up with the same solution.

Yes how coincidental, especially with the timing of the posts.

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

I mention this now, because you are makeing friends with it. "It" is actually a valued spirit guide and teacher. That's the name i gave it..."it". He puts you through your paces until you rise up and start to realize the truth.

Good luck my friend. When you have finished with integrating shadow let me know, there is much to discuss after that.

What is the 'truth'. You mean your truth or mine?  Also when you say this in the manner in which you have, and asking for me to let you know when I am done doing whatever it is you think I must do to understand 'the truth'. Its actually quite patronizing, you're aware of that though yes.  I'm sure this probably works on the younger or the less experienced in certain matters but you cant play a guru role with me(I dont need one ).

You see some enjoy that spotlight but I dont, if I did I would have more posts by answering questions everyday and I would type blogs etc. So dont confuse my lack of answering as lack of knowledge. In the end people learn better imo when they figure things out for themselves.

Ambush Bug, on 23 October 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

No, what I pointed out is a double standard working in this thread. I dont consider your views authoritative, the end all be all, is all.

You criticize religion for its "dogma" and "smoke and mirrors". But I dont see you presenting any evidence to back your claims either. It is is just word of mouth and personal convictions.

You can be a deluded individual for all we know with romantic designs of inventing one's self image. And likewise you can make the  same statement towards me. Dont matter.

I noticed that and was thinking along those lines earlier.  I dont believe anyones views are authoritative on these subjects but I have noticed some trying to be.

Edited by Kazahel, 23 October 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Seeker79]

Kazahel, on 23 October 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yes how coincidental, especially with the timing of the posts.



What is the 'truth'. You mean your truth or mine?  Also when you say this in the manner in which you have, and asking for me to let you know when I am done doing whatever it is you think I must do to understand 'the truth'. Its actually quite patronizing, you're aware of that though yes.  I'm sure this probably works on the younger or the less experienced in certain matters but you cant play a guru role with me(I dont need one ).

You see some enjoy that spotlight but I dont, if I did I would have more posts by answering questions everyday and I would type blogs etc. So dont confuse my lack of answering as lack of knowledge. In the end people learn better imo when they figure things out for themselves.




I noticed that and was thinking along those lines earlier.  I dont believe anyones views are authoritative on these subjects but I have noticed some trying to be.

Hold on there now cowboy. I was saying what happened to me. You Did this to me last time. Where as you think I'm playing guru with you, I think you are way to overly sensitive and reading things into my intentions that are not there. A little root chakra work there my friend. I told you I call it how I see it. Last time you mentioned you did not like the fact that I blog and it was some how less than humble of me. A little secret for you, my blogs are an outlet. A method of sharing what happens to me because in my normal life I can't. I'm surrounded by Christians and people that would think im nuts. UM, is pressure valve, a therepy,  A way to get it off my chest, I even thank people for listening to me. Maby two people in my life know these things about me, so trust me I remain anonymous for a reason. I used to beat around the bush here, but I realized and somone taught me that it's pretty useless to hide when you are anonomouse anyway. Might as well let it out.

Im In front of literally hundreds of people everyday....if I am an attention seeker, trust me I get plenty of it dayly. In that capacity I am a teacher, so it's a personality trait to offer help when I see an opertunity... Even a practice. I apologize that that bruises your ego when and if I offer any assistant in something. It didn't have to be your truth, you don't have to listen... And I could be wrong. My intention has nothing to do with subjugating you.  

Here is where choices and lak of body language in discussions gets people. Twice now, you have mentioned that you thought you might have taught me to set a trap for that thing . I felt a twinge of patronizing intent, then I let it go because ultimately I realized you didn't mean it that way. Twice now you have suggested that because I write a blog that I am somehow less than genuin. Again I let it pass through me, because I realize that you don't really know me or my intentions.

Now a simple offer to discuss something that I have been through after and if you go through it to is me trying to be your guru.

Do you see a pattern here? Whos ego are we really talking about? Mine? Or yours?

I'm actually very sorry we are off on such a wrong foot. I was looking forward to hearing about your journues and discoverys.

Edited by Seeker79, 23 October 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[Seeker79]

One more thing. In college I had a very good business writing professor ( who would kill me if he saw all my mistakes these days). He pounded into me not to write in passive voice. I still have this style today. Unfortunately, the style is designed to be strong. It may look like I'm trying to be an authority, but It's only a reflection of style. Skeptics and academics respect it, and new agers and hippies tend to hate it. What can I say Im stuck between tow worlds. It's the story of my life.

Enough of this.

Sakari, I want a picture of you with a red pentagram on your forehead holding a very large salmon.

( as long as you thank the fish for its life)

Edited by Seeker79, 23 October 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[RedSquirrel]

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Sakari, I want a picture of you with a red pentagram on your forehead holding a very large salmon.

( as long as you thank the fish for its life)

Holy carp, I'd enjoy that image too, just for the "WTF" factor.

[Sakari]

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

One more thing. In college I had a very good business writing professor ( who would kill me if he saw all my mistakes these days). He pounded into me not to write in passive voice. I still have this style today. Unfortunately, the style is designed to be strong. It may look like I'm trying to be an authority, but It's only a reflection of style. Skeptics and academics respect it, and new agers and hippies tend to hate it. What can I say Im stuck between tow worlds. It's the story of my life.

Enough of this.

Sakari, I want a picture of you with a red pentagram on your forehead holding a very large salmon.

( as long as you thank the fish for its life)

Well, last week fish not coming in yet, raining all week so far, so if river is not blown out, I should hopefully catch a few this coming weekend. My wife does not wear lipstick, but I will see what I can do

And I thank anything for it's life if I hunt it or fish it. ( stopped hunting so those guys are safe )

[Kazahel]

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Hold on there now cowboy. I was saying what happened to me. You Did this to me last time. Where as you think I'm playing guru with you, I think you are way to overly sensitive and reading things into my intentions that are not there. A little root chakra work there my friend.

You cant help yourself. Even saying this is attemtping to play a guru role.  You try play this role with pretty much everyone and I'm surprised others dont find it patronizing.

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I told you I call it how I see it. Last time you mentioned you did not like the fact that I blog and it was some how less than humble of me. A little secret for you, my blogs are an outlet.

I didnt actually directly say I dont like that you blog. I said..

Kazahel said:

I am also not an attention seeker. If I was you would think I would be on facebook, have blogs about my experiences(and direct people to them)and go out of my way to tell people to PM me for advice. I do none of these things and just simply(rarely now)share some of my experiences/dreams, in threads that will fade in time.

But I can understand why you think it was direct. And yes you did claim it was an outlet for you. I do understand this to a certain degree.

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I apologize that that bruises your ego when and if I offer any assistant in something. It didn't have to be your truth, you don't have to listen... And I could be wrong. My intention has nothing to do with subjugating you.

It doesnt bruise my ego but I do find from the manner in which you give your advice to others as always placing yourself above the person who you give it to. So it raises yours. When people say things like "friend you are close to awakening! You are close to finding the truth" etc etc it places the one who said it as if they know the 'truth' and are a wannabe guru. But peoples truths in these things are generally different and imo best found themselves.

You said to me before..  "I like to help people through Their issues because there was no one around for me when I had mine... ". But in the end you apparently found your way(on your own yes?). So its kinda patronizing to assume others wont without help.

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Now a simple offer to discuss something that I have been through after and if you go through it to is me trying to be your guru.

Do you see a pattern here? Whos ego are we really talking about? Mine? Or yours?

I do see it as trying to play a guru role. I see you try do it with pretty much everyone I'm just surprised they all seem to accept it. I can only guess that is from their age and lack of self discovery. Even Sakari has and he is older which I find quite bizarre. He says he wishes to learn how to astral travel but doesnt wish to learn from anyone else. And because his time constraints dont fit in with your methods he doesnt bother continue to attempt to learn. But there are many methods around. Persoanlly I think thats just an excuse. So he seems to want to try all these different summoning techniques but when it comes down astral travelling he only wants to attempt one, which I find that odd and so it gives me doubt of the true effort placed in this thread.

Seeker79, on 23 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm actually very sorry we are off on such a wrong foot. I was looking forward to hearing about your journues and discoverys.

Well you might still come across them but in a more subtle manner.

Edited by Kazahel, 24 October 2012 - 03:33 AM.

[Seeker79]

Kazahel, on 24 October 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

You cant help yourself. Even saying this is attemtping to play a guru role.  You try play this role with pretty much everyone and I'm surprised others dont find it patronizing.



I didnt actually directly say I dont like that you blog. I said..



But I can understand why you think it was direct. And yes you did claim it was an outlet for you. I do understand this to a certain degree.




It doesnt bruise my ego but I do find from the manner in which you give your advice to others as always placing yourself above the person who you give it to. So it raises yours. When people say things like "friend you are close to awakening! You are close to finding the truth" etc etc it places the one who said it as if they know the 'truth' and are a wannabe guru. But peoples truths in these things are generally different and imo best found themselves.

You said to me before..  "I like to help people through Their issues because there was no one around for me when I had mine... ". But in the end you apparently found your way(on your own yes?). So its kinda patronizing to assume others wont without help.




I do see it as trying to play a guru role. I see you try do it with pretty much everyone I'm just surprised they all seem to accept it. I can only guess that is from their age and lack of self discovery. Even Sakari has and he is older which I find quite bizarre. He says he wishes to learn how to astral travel but doesnt wish to learn from anyone else. And because his time constraints dont fit in with your methods he doesnt bother continue to attempt to learn. But there are many methods around. Persoanlly I think thats just an excuse. So he seems to want to try all these different summoning techniques but when it comes down astral travelling he only wants to attempt one, which I find that odd and so it gives me doubt of the true effort placed in this thread.




Well you might still come across them but in a more subtle manner.

Well then... If I am Sakaris guru which is practically an oxymoron... Then I could predict he is about to rip apart that statement to shreds.  And I would not have to be his guru to predict it... Only his friend.

Seriously,  my candidness on these forums is only a result of writing style, experiences, and a twinge of competitiveness... Just a twing .  

Take it for what it is.

With your experiences... And I know you have them.., we share them. How many people have you walked out of the "demon" delusion? What use is it if you don't share? What kind of teacher do you think you can be complaining all the time and not taking an active role?  What good is any of it? Most of the rest of the world does not know what we know. I get that. But I'm not trying to be anything, hide from anything... But yes I am always always aspiring to to be something... But I can't tell you that, because you will only integrate that into your image of me.

Oh crap... Let's just stop. You and I have done a good job already of letting everyone else reading there is another world to explore..., weather deep archetypes or a spirit world. Their choice.

I'm sorry I put you off, im sorry im over bearing, im sorry you felt patronized, im sorry I don't have any proof demons and evil spirits don't exist, mostly I'm sorry we have hi jacked this awesome thread, yet I feel this debate is educational to the others... Somehow. Mostly I'm sorry the I'm sitting at my table in my third glass of wine with an Oxford annoted press bible in research to show some Christian what Corinthians really ment, and I feel the need to argue with you about my intentions. ....... Sigh...

I'm just sorry.

Edited by Seeker79, 24 October 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[Seeker79]

Why subtlety? It's an Internet forum . Let it out. Do you see these threads on demons, altered states, the ap threads. SLEEP PARALYSIS?!?!??  Do realize how many people you can help with what you know. In the year or so since we have talked I have at least a half a dozen thank you letters from people who I have walked  out if that particular darkeness .., proud? Dam right. You are one of very few that I know who can do it to . Why not? Is pride where do a bad thing, or is to much much pride to do anything better.... You tell me.