Roswell was Soviet plot to create US panic

[quillius]

You seem to be defending Sky's position. That's why the question I asked was directed to you and is relevent to you not to Sky.

It wasnt defending his position, I was merely pointing out that (he thought) he was being asked to find mention of Roswell pre-1970, which he then went on to do. It was alluded to that he may have been being misleading with that particular source which I did not think was the case so I spoke up.

As I already said Skys posiition regarding Roswell is pretty apparent, as is yours. My opinion on what happened would be purely speculative with little knowledge to base it on. So far it seems your hypothesis has obvious grounds with what little I know and it makes far more sense than the balloon theory. At the same time I dont discount the possibility of a craft crashing there.

I think what would be quite interesting would be for you to start a thread and lay out the hypothesis in full to maybe allow for it to be put to the test. I am not saying it hasnt been put to the test at certain times here on UM and on other sites, I just think it would make a good thread.

[Space Commander Travis]

As mentioned earlier, I think that you confused the recovery of a weather balloon rawin device in Circleville about the same time frame of your CIC hypothesis. That recovery story just happened to make its way to a newspaper in Fort Worth in July 1947. As I mentioned before, Wright-Patterson AFB, would have been a better base to concoct your CIC hypothesis, not Roswell AAF, because of Roswell's unique mission and operations.

In regards ot the CIC folks, Caviitt, who was trying to debunk the Roswell incident as a weather balloon, would have been the first to reveal a CIC operaton if true, but he never did. Rickett, was also on the scene as well

In addition, look at the date in regards ot the newspaper covering the story of the Circelville Weather balloon rawin device recovery. Note the story below the photo.

My link[/color][/font]

And, the list keeps coming on.

There's some interesting stories there. I wonder what the one below that means. "AMERICANS WHO SEE FLYING SAUCERS ADVISED BY EUROPE TO TAKE PLEDGE". They mean, lay off the booze a bit?

Edited June 24, 2011 by 747400

[DONTEATUS]

They will just keep sweeping it under the table Sky ! Dont worrie Be Happy !

Those that know can sleep with there doors locked,those that want to learn more can Look up more.

[lost_shaman]

As mentioned earlier, I think that you confused the recovery of a weather balloon rawin device in Circleville about the same time frame of your CIC hypothesis. That recovery story just happened to make its way to a newspaper in Fort Worth in July 1947. As I mentioned before, Wright-Patterson AFB, would have been a better base to concoct your CIC hypothesis, not Roswell AAF, because of Roswell's unique mission and operations.

I'm not confusing anything Sky. This was only one of three Rawin Targets in the local papers around Wright Field following the Secret investigation that Gen. Twining ordered on July 2nd. Wright Field would not have been a better place to conduct such an operation because they already dealt with exotic and foreign aircraft, confusing a RAWIN would make them look bad. Also the point was to fool the Press so they would leave the Flying Saucer story alone so the secret investigation could take place without Press following the story, so conducting it at Wright Field would have been counter productive especially if the operation didn't work.

Roswell was a great place to do this because it is very remote and the National Press would have a hard time getting there, moving the Story over to Ft. Worth further isolated the Press. This wasn't to hide crashed Aliens but rather to make the National Press feel foolish for the 'frenzy' in which they were covering the Flying saucer story.

Edited June 24, 2011 by lost_shaman

[The Religious Hoax]

I see that a point of contention here is a lack of coverage or reporting on Roswell prior to 1970. This shouldn't surprise anyone since the MSM's messaging and content was (and probably still is) controlled by the CIA's propaganda department, it's all right here for you to read about:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=204252&pid=3948349&st=0entry3948349

Any claims about a lack of coverage or conflicting stories about Roswell by the MSM are 100% complete garbage. The original local article published in Roswell is still the best piece of evidence that something did happen in 1947, as this local paper wasn't censored on time.

[mcrom901]

This shouldn't surprise anyone since the MSM's messaging and content was (and probably still is) controlled by the CIA's propaganda department

they killed him...

http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/john-fleck-nm-science-mainmenu-31/1932-820am-roswell-publisher-dies-suddenly.html

[The Religious Hoax]

they killed him...

http://www.abqjournal.com/abqnews/john-fleck-nm-science-mainmenu-31/1932-820am-roswell-publisher-dies-suddenly.html

FYI, your link doesn't work.

[skyeagle409]

I'm not confusing anything Sky. This was only one of three Rawin Targets in the local papers around Wright Field following the Secret investigation that Gen. Twining ordered on July 2nd. Wright Field would not have been a better place to conduct such an operation because they already dealt with exotic and foreign aircraft, confusing a RAWIN would make them look bad. Also the point was to fool the Press so they would leave the Flying Saucer story alone so the secret investigation could take place without Press following the story, so conducting it at Wright Field would have been counter productive especially if the operation didn't work.

Roswell was a great place to do this because it is very remote and the National Press would have a hard time getting there, moving the Story over to Ft. Worth further isolated the Press. This wasn't to hide crashed Aliens but rather to make the National Press feel foolish for the 'frenzy' in which they were covering the Flying saucer story.

Thanks for posting the map.

It depicts where Wright-Patterson AFB is located in relation to Circleville. As I've mentioned earlier, Wright-Patterson AFB would have been a better location to put forth your CIC hypothesis, not Roswell AAF, and the time frame of the Circleville recovery fits right in there with your CIC hypothesis and the fact the story in Circleville made it to a newspaper in Fort Worth, pretty much spells it out. It was just a coincidence that the Roswell incident occurred at roughly the same time as the Circleville recovery and the Muroc AFB incident.

Saucers were reported over the Roswell area before, and after the news headline hit the wires. In fact, balloon scientist in the area were also reporting that they were observing flying saucers over the White Sands, New Mexico area. At the same time the military reported recovering a flying saucer in New Mexico, flight test folks in California were reporting saucers overflying their area, which has been documented and check the date.

MUROC AFB INCIDENT, CALIFORNIA

July 8, 1947

My link

And then, compare the date of July 8, 1947, with the date of this headline.

RAAF Captures Flying Saucer

My link

Check the location where scientist were making their observations

HOW SCIENTISTS TRACKED A FLYING SAUCER

My link

So when you tie the Roswell incident with the Muroc AFB incident, which were roughly in the same ballpark as far as the time frame is concerned, it shows that something extraordinary was taking place in the skies of the American Southwest, and their reports were of flying saucers, and when you add the reports of scientist tracking and documenting their own observations of flying saucers over the area, it is something that cannot be taken lightly.

Tthose within the CIC have testified the that exotic material they observed had exhibited extraordinary properies and have said so decades after the fact, and their testimonies show that the Roswell incident was not the result of a CIC operation. Roswell debunker, Sheridan Cavitt, would have been among the first of the CIC folks to blow the whistle on such an operation, but as history has shown, neither Cavitt, Marcel, nor Rickett, have testified that the Roswell incident was the result of a CIC operation.

Edited June 24, 2011 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

There's some interesting stories there. I wonder what the one below that means. "AMERICANS WHO SEE FLYING SAUCERS ADVISED BY EUROPE TO TAKE PLEDGE". They mean, lay off the booze a bit?

Someone should ask the Europeans about those G'host Rockets' they have been reporting.

[DONTEATUS]

The story my Friends is Blowing in the Winds,as do most things in here ! Why not just accept that things that may seem unbelievible are indeed

things that maybe real,And Visa-versa. Reality is just another way to explain what one wants to believe.

the Reality of the UFO world is we dont know Its Unidentified afterall.As for E.T`s They Gotta Be Real ! I watch the News every night about L.A & Hollywoods Peeps,Thats proof enough for me !

Edited June 24, 2011 by DONTEATUS

[lost_shaman]

Thanks for posting the map.

It depicts where Wright-Patterson AFB is located in relation to Circleville. As I've mentioned earlier, Wright-Patterson AFB would have been a better location to put forth your CIC hypothesis, not Roswell AAF, and the time frame of the Circleville recovery fits right in there with your CIC hypothesis and the fact the story in Circleville made it to a newspaper in Fort Worth, pretty much spells it out. It was just a coincidence that the Roswell incident occurred at roughly the same time as the Circleville recovery and the Muroc AFB incident.

Yes it does fit with my hypothesis, thanks for noticing. You say it is just a coincidence, but is it also just a coincidence that Gen. Twining ordered a secret investigation on July 2nd by T-2 at Wright Field? Or that Gen. Ramey and his Intel. Chief Kalberer stopped talking to the press about Flying Saucers on that date? Or that T-2 listed Counter Intelligence as one of it's three main Goals? Or that Months later McCoy, head of T-2, was bragging to the Scientific advisory Board that they had hundreds of reports that hadn't been reported in the Press?

Saucers were reported over the Roswell area before, and after the news headline hit the wires. In fact, balloon scientist in the area were also reporting that they were observing flying saucers over the White Sands, New Mexico area. At the same time the military reported recovering a flying saucer in New Mexico, flight test folks in California were reporting saucers overflying their area, which has been documented and check the date.

Yeah people were seeing and reporting Flying Saucers, that is why T-2 was tasked with investigating the Phenomena by Gen. Twining in the first place.

So when you tie the Roswell incident with the Muroc AFB incident, which were roughly in the same ballpark as far as the time frame is concerned, it shows that something extraordinary was taking place in the skies of the American Southwest, and their reports were of flying saucers, and when you add the reports of scientist tracking and documenting their own observations of flying saucers over the area, it is something that cannot be taken lightly.

Exactly, that's why there was a need to make the Press look and feel foolish so that the Secret investigation could go forward without the Press interfering.

Tthose within the CIC have testified the that exotic material they observed had exhibited extraordinary properies and have said so decades after the fact, and their testimonies show that the Roswell incident was not the result of a CIC operation. Roswell debunker, Sheridan Cavitt, would have been among the first of the CIC folks to blow the whistle on such an operation, but as history has shown, neither Cavitt, Marcel, nor Rickett, have testified that the Roswell incident was the result of a CIC operation.

Again, just because people haven't said it was a Counter intelligence operation does not mean that it wasn't.

From a link you posted earlier, "As Gen. Arthur Exon later remarked when interviewed, the weather balloon explanation for Roswell was "ready-made." My hypothesis say's it was 'ready-made' by T-2 day's earlier as the whole incident was manufactured.

[skyeagle409]

Yes it does fit with my hypothesis, thanks for noticing. You say it is just a coincidence, but is it also just a coincidence that Gen. Twining ordered a secret investigation on July 2nd by T-2 at Wright Field? Or that Gen. Ramey and his Intel. Chief Kalberer stopped talking to the press about Flying Saucers on that date? Or that T-2 listed Counter Intelligence as one of it's three main Goals? Or that Months later McCoy, head of T-2, was bragging to the Scientific advisory Board that they had hundreds of reports that hadn't been reported in the Press?

It was a coincidence. Circleville was basically downwind from Wright-Patterson AFB, and the Circleville recovery story also made it in the newspaper in Fort Worth, where it was used in the way that your hypothesis is all about. One of the reasons why I disagree with Roswell AAF as being the point base for your hypothesis, is because of the mission of the 509th. The duties of the commanding officer was much too important for him to be involved in such a CIC operation

. His base was a very important strategic nuclear base and for him to be involved in such an operation would have taken him away from his sworn duties as commander of the world's only nuclear-capable bomber force, and that is unacceptable.

A commanding officer of such an unique nuclear-capable bomber force has very important duties to contend with as far as operations is concerned and was not in a position to deal with any CIC operation to mislead the press that would have deflected attention of his duties as the commanding officer, and another reason why I have said that Wright-Patterson AFB, was the best place to conduct such an operation, and as it was, Circleville became the focus of attention in the recovery of a weather balloon.

.One of the duties of Colonel Blanchard was to made sure the 509th was mission-capable at all times, and to be involved in a CIC operation to mislead the press, was out of the question. Things were heating up the 'Cold War' and the very next year, we were dealing with the Soviets over Berlin. I have to emphasize the importance of the CIC agents not exposing any CIC operations in regards to the Roswell incident after all of these years. if such an operation was in fact, conducted, there would be no reason for Marcel, Cavitt, Rickett, Exon, and many others, to continue to hide such an operation, especially after the 1950s when the Air Force was ordering its own pilots shoot down flying saucers, which was published in the press around the country, so the question is:

Why would anyone, including CIC agents connected to the Roswell recovery efforts in 1947, continue to hide a CIC operation to this very day?

They have never revealed any such operation after all of these years, and I have to re-emphasize once again, the importance of Roswell debunker, Sheridan Cavitt, of not revealing any such CIC operation in regards to the Roswell incident. The Circleville, recovery story was more than enough to get what your hypothesis is all about across to the press. The difference is, military personnel, including some CIC agents, and I might add, that after many years, they continued to push exotic materials that were recovered in New Mexico, and they have never revealed any CIC operation as responsible for the Roswell incident, and in my book Roswell debunker, Sheridan Cavitt would have been the first person to reveal such an operation, but he did not.

Another point to point out, UFO debunker, Phil Klass, did not claim that the Roswell incident was the result of a CIC operation either. I would put him up there with Cavitt for revealing any such operation had such an operation taken place as you say, but as in the case of Cavitt, Phil Klass did not claim the Roswell incident was the result of a CIC operation.

Edited June 25, 2011 by skyeagle409

[lost_shaman]

It was a coincidence. Circleville was basically downwind from Wright-Patterson AFB, and the Circleville recovery story also made it in the newspaper in Fort Worth, where it was used in the way that your hypothesis is all about. One of the reasons why I disagree with Roswell AAF as being the point base for your hypothesis, is because of the mission of the 509th. The duties of the commanding officer was much too important for him to be involved in such a CIC operation

. His base was a very important strategic nuclear base and for him to be involved in such an operation would have taken him away from his sworn duties as commander of the world's only nuclear-capable bomber force, and that is unacceptable.

A commanding officer of such an unique nuclear-capable bomber force has very important duties to contend with as far as operations is concerned and was not in a position to deal with any CIC operation to mislead the press that would have deflected attention of his duties as the commanding officer,

Let me stop you right there Sky! You know as well as I do that Blanchard took leave around or before Noon on the day in question (July 8th). If you are so adamant that Blanchard would not want to be a part of a CI operation then how do you explain the fact that Blanchard officially transferred power on that date and took leave?

We both agree that Blanchard did in-fact authorize the Press release Haut delivered. The fact that he then took leave and transferred power is strange but it fits with my hypothesis and you actually make some good points to support that even though that was not your intention.

Edited June 25, 2011 by lost_shaman

[Nufc1966]

Men come from Mars and women are from Venus, but surely this story comes from Uranus ?

I agree