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Osarseph and Exodus


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#16    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:03 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 04 November 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

qoute -Josephus' and Manetho's writings are a conflated retelling of a history that neither one really knew anything about.

Josephus may have adopted the story as he was Jewish , but Manetho was a Egyptain Historian, it seems this all occur arround the time of Akhenaten , Ramesses1 and his son Seti, since Ramesses1 tried to wiped out all of Akhentaen`s history.


Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten 1350 - 1334
Smenkhkare (Ankhkheperure) 1336-1334
Tutankhamun (Nebkheperure) 1334 - 1325
Ay (Kheperkheperure) 1325 - 1321
Horemheb (Djeserkheperure) 1323 - 1295

19th Dynasty

Ramesses I (Menpehtyre) 1295 - 1294
Seti I (Menmaatre) 1394 - 1279

Actually he wasn't. He was an Egyptian Priest. There were no historians in the modern sense back then. More often than not history, myth and legend became intertwined. As can be seen by previous mentions of Amenhotep and Ramesses, also called Seti. All the priests back then really had were names, with no real historical knowledge of who they were or even their backgrounds. This is not a good basis for making the claims that many have tried to make.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#17    docyabut2

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:23 AM

Manetho (Posted Image /ˈmænɨθ/; Ancient Greek: Μανέθων, Manethōn, or Μανέθως, Manethōs) was an Egyptian historian and priest from Sebennytos (ancient Egyptian.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho


#18    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Manetho (Posted Image /ˈmænɨθ/; Ancient Greek: Μανέθων, Manethōn, or Μανέθως, Manethōs) was an Egyptian historian and priest from Sebennytos (ancient Egyptian.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho

Wikipedia makes alot of wrong claims. Your point was?

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The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#19    docyabut2

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:56 AM

Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Tutankhamun, and Ay were excised from the official lists of Pharaohs, which instead reported that Amenhotep III was immediately succeeded by Horemheb. This is thought to be part of an attempt by Horemheb to delete all trace of Atenism and the pharaohs associated with it from the historical record. Akhenaten's name never appeared on any of the king lists compiled by later Pharaohs and it was not until the late 19th century that his identity was re-discovered and the surviving traces of his reign were unearthed by archaeologists.


#20    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:00 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 05 November 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Akhenaten, Smenkhkare, Tutankhamun, and Ay were excised from the official lists of Pharaohs, which instead reported that Amenhotep III was immediately succeeded by Horemheb. This is thought to be part of an attempt by Horemheb to delete all trace of Atenism and the pharaohs associated with it from the historical record. Akhenaten's name never appeared on any of the king lists compiled by later Pharaohs and it was not until the late 19th century that his identity was re-discovered and the surviving traces of his reign were unearthed by archaeologists.

That still doesn't many any of the kings of the Thutmose lineage the Biblical Moses.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#21    docyabut2

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:13 AM

Comac, Pharaohs were given up to six different names so how do you know  who was who:)


#22    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:18 AM

You can check out the names of the pharaoh's of Dynasty 19 here:

http://xorpid.com/dynasty-XIX

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 05 November 2012 - 01:20 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#23    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:20 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Manetho (Posted Image /ˈmænɨθ/; Ancient Greek: Μανέθων, Manethōn, or Μανέθως, Manethōs) was an Egyptian historian and priest from Sebennytos (ancient Egyptian.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho

Not a lot is known about Manetho but "historian" was not one of his titles. There was no such title in Egypt. There was no such tradition. The Greeks had been developing a legitimate tradition of historical inquiry, but it was nothing like historical study as we understand it today. As can be seen in the accounts of Herodotus, historical inquiry was mostly story telling; where facts were lacking, imagination took over.

We modern people have assigned the title of "historian" to Manetho. Had you mentioned the title to him, he would've been nonplussed. There was no such word in his language.

I maintain that Manetho's story of Osarseph is possibly a jumbled memory of the Amarna Period, but it doesn't make the account a reality—any more than it would prove that the biblical character of Moses was real. It certainly doesn't.

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#24    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:24 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 05 November 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Comac, Pharaohs were given up to six different names so how do you know  who was who:)

Most kings of the New Kingdom possessed five names. Of these, only the nomen and prenomen were widely known and recorded. These were the two names—birth name and throne name—which appeared in cartouches. The other three names were largely ritual in nature and it's unlikely kings were referred to by them in person. They appear only in formal inscriptions.

Nevertheless, the royal titulary (various names) of all major New Kingdom kings are well known and attested. Nothing in Manetho's account fits with them in a reliable manner.

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#25    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:15 PM

What was Moses if not priest? Mage? Wizard?

We have evidence ot 10 plagues of Egypt. Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut's Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .


From wiki:


book The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History, and Science Look at the Bible, Siro Igino Trevisanato explores the theory that the plagues were initially caused by the Santorini eruption in Greece. His hypothesis considers a two-stage eruption over a time of a bit less than two years. His studies place the first eruption in 1602 BC, when volcanic ash taints the Nile, causing the first plague and forming a catalyst for many of the subsequent plagues. In 1600 BC, the plume of a Santorini eruption caused the ninth plague, the days of darkness. Trevisanato hypothesizes that the Egyptians (at that time under the occupation of Hyksos), resorted to human sacrifice in an attempt to appease the gods, for they had viewed the ninth plague as a precursor to more. This human sacrifice became known as the tenth plague.

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#26    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

Manetho (Posted Image /ˈmænɨθ/; Ancient Greek: Μανέθων, Manethōn, or Μανέθως, Manethōs) was an Egyptian historian and priest from Sebennytos (ancient Egyptian.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho

„In a certain sense all men are historians.“Thomas Carlyle :tu:

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#27    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:30 PM

View Postthe L, on 05 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

What was Moses if not priest? Mage? Wizard?

We have evidence ot 10 plagues of Egypt. Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut's Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .


From wiki:


book The Plagues of Egypt: Archaeology, History, and Science Look at the Bible, Siro Igino Trevisanato explores the theory that the plagues were initially caused by the Santorini eruption in Greece. His hypothesis considers a two-stage eruption over a time of a bit less than two years. His studies place the first eruption in 1602 BC, when volcanic ash taints the Nile, causing the first plague and forming a catalyst for many of the subsequent plagues. In 1600 BC, the plume of a Santorini eruption caused the ninth plague, the days of darkness. Trevisanato hypothesizes that the Egyptians (at that time under the occupation of Hyksos), resorted to human sacrifice in an attempt to appease the gods, for they had viewed the ninth plague as a precursor to more. This human sacrifice became known as the tenth plague.

People really need to quit using Wikipedia as a primary source. As in this case, like so many others, it's wrong. We know the primary direction of the volcanic plume of Santorini and there was insufficient ashfall carried to Egypt to have caused any plagues. The ash plume travelled northeast of Santorini.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#28    questionmark

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:12 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

People really need to quit using Wikipedia as a primary source. As in this case, like so many others, it's wrong. We know the primary direction of the volcanic plume of Santorini and there was insufficient ashfall carried to Egypt to have caused any plagues. The ash plume travelled northeast of Santorini.

cormac

And no matter how many times that little fact is pointed out some keep insisting on it and the Manzala parting of the muck.

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#29    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:30 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

People really need to quit using Wikipedia as a primary source. As in this case, like so many others, it's wrong. We know the primary direction of the volcanic plume of Santorini and there was insufficient ashfall carried to Egypt to have caused any plagues. The ash plume travelled northeast of Santorini.

cormac

Then from what volcano we found evidence in egypt about same time?

Also do you think that China records are connected with Santorini explosion?

Edit: we have records of some plagues in  Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

Edited by the L, 05 November 2012 - 07:36 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#30    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:00 PM

View Postthe L, on 05 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Then from what volcano we found evidence in egypt about same time?

Also do you think that China records are connected with Santorini explosion?

Edit: we have records of some plagues in Tempest Stele of Ahmose I,Hatshepsut Speos Artemidos, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness,Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus .

There is evidence for a small deposit of ash from Santorini reaching the Northern Delta of Egypt, but we're talking millimeters at most which is an insignificant amount and nowhere near enough to be responsible for the plagues.

No, I don't think China's records are connected to Santorini. As well as the majority of the volcanic plume travelling northeast, most of it would have dissipated by the time it reached the eastern Black Sea. China wouldn't have even seen its effects.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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