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Afterlife and the brain


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#31    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:08 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

So do you believe your father's consciousness you interacted with was his original self-awareness or a stored copy?

I'm asking for resolution, not comfort.

It seems to have been a stored copy. However the consciousness of beings I have interacted with around the universe were living same- time, self aware sapient beings, doing jobs and living their lives. Actually you have made me think here. It is also possible that i was attached to stored memories in those cases. However I had to "physically" travel across the galaxy and universe, through a network of communication devices to get to the physical locations of those beings, so I suspect they were living and real. In my father's case i simply stepped into his world from the 1930s it was like living in a movie, where you could interact with the characters and travel within the movie "world", but not change the outcomes or real time events. You become a sort of bit player with an impromptu and improvised role within the bigger picture. I have also travelled back into the past on historical "expeditions" to observe past realities, and found much the same to apply.

Eg it is no good talking to doctors from the nineteen thirties as they give you a guided tour of their hospital, about the fact that, not only are all the patients smoking in their wards, but so are they.  Or trying to give modern medical advice.They are trapped within the realities of their own existence/time. Yet i can observe details, down to the type of cigarette they are smoking, and confirm that data later, through research.

My point was that any technology capable of storing a copy of the human self aware consciousness is capable of reproducing it and re-attaching it to a host, either organic or artificial. Ie  "resurrecting" a consciousness in a host . Humans will be doing this in the next generation,  and so  it is impossible  NOT to accept its feasibility.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 December 2012 - 10:19 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#32    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:15 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

It seems to have been a stored copy. However the consciousness of beings I have interacted with around the universe were living same- time, self aware sapient beings, doing jobs and living their lives.

My point was that any technology capable of storing a copy of the human self aware consciousness is capable of reproducing it and re-attaching it to a host, either organic or artificial. Ie  "resurrecting" a consciousness in a host . Humans will be doing this in the next generation,  and so  it is impossible  NOT to accept its feasibility.
That sounds something like a mental clone.
I guess by consciousness surviving death, I'm refering to the original mind existing.


#33    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

That sounds something like a mental clone.
I guess by consciousness surviving death, I'm refering to the original mind existing.
There is no difference, such is the nature of human thought and memory. The original mind does exist. Even when split into many separate forms it can be reunited into one singular form.  Stored memory does not differentiate between memory of real events and of mental constructs imaginations etc. Thus your memory as it exists in your mind, can be stored and transfered, totally intact and unchanged, into another brain or artificial memory storage. No one, including yourself, will be able to determine an, "original memory.

After each transfer, individual memories will begin to diverge, as individuals have separate experiences, but they can be reunited and merged as one (stored in a hundred individual hosts) any time it is desired.

From my limited experiences with the cosmic consciousness i think it operates a bit like this. It stores, has access to, and provides limited  access to others;  memories (and current self awareness) of all sapient self aware entities with which it is connected.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 December 2012 - 10:31 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#34    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:34 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 December 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

There is no difference, such is the nature of human thought and memory.
No difference to the outsider, big difference to the original subject. It is like teleportation, the original is destroyed and an exact copy is made. To both the outsider and the copy, there is no difference, however the original no longer exists.

Quote

The original mind does exist. Even when split into many separate forms it can be reunited into one singular form.
Dismantling a car to build others destroys the original.

Quote

Stored memory does not differentiate between memory of real events and of mental constructs imaginations etc. Thus your memory as it exists in your mind, can be stored and transfered, totally intact and unchanged, into another brain or artificial memory storage. No one, including yourself, will be able to determine an, "original memory.
I'm talking about awareness, the state of being aware.

Quote

After each transfer, individual memories will begin to diverge, as individuals have separate experiences, but they can be reunited and merged as one (stored in a hundred individual hosts) any time it is desired.
By refering to them as individuals even you acknowledge they are not the same original.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 11:57 AM.


#35    StarMountainKid

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

I think when one's brain dies, one's personality dies, as one's personality is the unique configuration of the brain's neural network. I don't know of any evidence other than this physical construction and architecture of the brain.

As far as spiritual experiences, if one considers the whole of space-time as like a loaf of sliced bread, each slice representing a single isolated moment of space-time, then seeing ghosts or communicating with dead people may be leakages between these past frozen moments (slices).

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#36    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

No difference to the outsider, big difference to the original subject. It is like teleportation, the original is destroyed and an exact copy is made. To both the outsider and the copy, there is no difference, however the original no longer exists.

Dismantling a car to build others destroys the original.

I'm talking about awareness, the state of being aware.

By refering to them as individuals even you acknowledge they are not the same original.

Perhaps it is semantic but your awareness is a biological   entity composed of chemicals and electricity That entity can be reproduced to be identical to the original So tha tit is indistinguishable from the original memory and self awareness. It is like the transmat beam where BOTH the original and the transmitted entitys exist, one at the point of departure and one at the point of arrival.  You are thinking perhaps of the original organic host but there is NO originality to self awareness. From the pov of the awareness  ALL the  awarenesses would BE the original and all would believe/think /know, that they were the original.  The original lived in a host which carried it through the experinces which formed it but long afer the death of that host the original self awareness will continue on; growing, sharing, learning, and evolving.
To make it clear One can transfer memory and self awareness without affecting or harming the original just as one copies music.
Yes while the hosts are separate the memories will individualise, but then, when melded together on a regular basis, they will become as one. Each host will have identical memories at that point, and again they will slowly diverge until they are melded again.
There is nothing mystical, metaphysical, or even problematic about this. it is just technology and will probably become common place within a few decades.
The more interesting and difficult ethical issue is how host bodies for these consciousnesses will be provided. Either clones or artificial hosts are possibilities Clones are more achievable and could be produced now using existing technologies, but have more ethical issues.

Another twist is that one could import memories from anyone. Eg  how to speak a language or memories of a holiday etc. Once the technology is available you could record your memories and self awareness.  Then, when people died, their memories  could be archived, to be available to the living for personal or historical purposes.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 December 2012 - 12:27 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#37    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

From the pov of the awareness  ALL the  awarenesses would BE the original and all would believe/think /know, that they were the original.  The original lived in a host which carried it through the experinces which formed it but long afer the death of that host the original self awareness will continue on; growing, sharing, learning, and evolving.
To make it clear One can transfer memory and self awareness without affecting or harming the original just as one copies music.
If someone created a duplicate of you, would you be aware of all your duplicates actions and thoughts?


#38    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:34 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

If someone created a duplicate of you, would you be aware of all your duplicates actions and thoughts?
Once the consciousnesses were reintegrated, yes.  As much as I can remember all my  own past actions and thoughts, which is limited. But they are all stored in my brain, and could be enhanced and recovered by artificial stimulus, to give perfect recall. That is a separate side to this technology. Scientists are working on both drugs and mechanical devices to enable this enhancement.
Out of interest there is considerable success at the moment in transmitting thoughts in the form of speech, from one person to another using neural implants and wireless technology. At the moment success is limited by the complexity of speech/thought but the technoogy exists to do it, and in simple form it is happening now. As we get better technology and understanding we will be able to read another person's thoughts(or more accurately their stream aof verbal consciousness) directly. Humans can already direct machines like wheel chairs and robot arms or legs by thought alone.The thought is transmitted to a computer operated device which operates the machine.

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#39    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:03 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Once the consciousnesses were reintegrated, yes.  As much as I can remember all my  own past actions and thoughts, which is limited. But they are all stored in my brain, and could be enhanced and recovered by artificial stimulus, to give perfect recall. That is a separate side to this technology. Scientists are working on both drugs and mechanical devices to enable this enhancement.
Out of interest there is considerable success at the moment in transmitting thoughts in the form of speech, from one person to another using neural implants and wireless technology. At the moment success is limited by the complexity of speech/thought but the technoogy exists to do it, and in simple form it is happening now. As we get better technology and understanding we will be able to read another person's thoughts(or more accurately their stream aof verbal consciousness) directly. Humans can already direct machines like wheel chairs and robot arms or legs by thought alone.The thought is transmitted to a computer operated device which operates the machine.
That wasn't the question.
Put it another way, if two objects are identical, are they the same object?


#40    SavageDragon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

I don't think that replying the informations means some kind of afterlife. I'm on the same line of rlyeh here (but just here)..

What if you lived since your born with an hypothetical device that could register all you did, thought and feel in your entire life? Sure, after your death somebody could access to this information and reply your experience, but your personal point of view, that compose yourself as much as the informations you carry.. wouldn't just be around to know and feel it. So it wouldn't make any difference for us.

Maybe it would be a nice way for people who lose dears to still interact with them somehow.. but that's just it.

If in the future we'll be able to carry the entire brain in a machine (ala singularity), that's another kettle of fish.


#41    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 03 December 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

A NDE from a dead person would be astonishing. Currently we only have stories from living humans recounting a memory they may or may not have experienced.
May or may not? You think they are lieing?

So you have personally defined death? The line that we call clinically dead jumps all over the place. Heart failure? Brain failure? temp 60 degrees, blood drained from the body, and zero electrical activity in the brain? It's you that wants to add to the definition that it's a state that one cannot come back from. This will be challenge more and more into the future as technology advances. And it is a prediction that the incidence of NDEs will positively corolate with increased technological capabilities. This will be strong evidence in favor of the spiritual inturpretations of NDEs

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#42    White Crane Feather

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

View PostSavageDragon, on 03 December 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

I don't think that replying the informations means some kind of afterlife. I'm on the same line of rlyeh here (but just here)..

What if you lived since your born with an hypothetical device that could register all you did, thought and feel in your entire life? Sure, after your death somebody could access to this information and reply your experience, but your personal point of view, that compose yourself as much as the informations you carry.. wouldn't just be around to know and feel it. So it wouldn't make any difference for us.

Maybe it would be a nice way for people who lose dears to still interact with them somehow.. but that's just it.

If in the future we'll be able to carry the entire brain in a machine (ala singularity), that's another kettle of fish.
What makes you so sure a singularity has not already occurred ?

Edited by Seeker79, 03 December 2012 - 05:05 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#43    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 02 December 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

As much as I'd love to believe the mind can survive death, the understanding of the brain won't let me.
It is quite obvious the state of the brain plays a big role in what we associate with the mind, consciousness, personality, memory, emotions.
If the mind can survive death, this implies the mind is not dependent on the brain yet affecting the brain can bring about anything from amnesia, mood swings, change of personality to total loss of consciousness.
How do believers in the after life resolve this conflict of polar opposites?

I can only come to the logical conclusion the dead are dead in mind and body.

My stance is that reality is an illusion and part of that illusion involves the highest levels of mind.

There is no life or death.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 03 December 2012 - 04:59 PM.


#44    Rlyeh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 04:58 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

May or may not? You think they are lieing?
Not lying, just the brain trying to make sense by filling in the gaps. It would explain why NDEs reflect the subject's beliefs.

Quote

So you have personally defined death? The line that we call clinically dead jumps all over the place. Heart failure? Brain failure? temp 60 degrees, blood drained from the body, and zero electrical activity in the brain? It's you that wants to add to the definition that it's a state that one cannot come back from. This will be challenge more and more into the future as technology advances. And it is a prediction that the incidence of NDEs will positively corolate with increased technological capabilities. This will be strong evidence in favor of the spiritual inturpretations of NDEs
The cease of all biological functions that maintain the organism's life.

Edited by Rlyeh, 03 December 2012 - 05:00 PM.


#45    SavageDragon

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 03 December 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

What makes you so sure a singularity has. It already occurred ?

Not 100% sure what you are asking me here, but I lurk this forum since some good time so giving your views, I assume you mean if a singularity "hasn't already occured"?

If that's the question, I'm not "so sure" but I couldn't know anyway.





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