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Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?


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#61    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:23 AM

View PostCrikey, on 31 January 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

But what possible motive would anybody have for sitting down and "inventing" Jesus and Christianity?

View PostHavocWing, on 31 January 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Power, an insatiable lust for power, riches and glory.

Ultimately, "the psychopath must have what he wants, no matter what the cost to those in his way."
And what of the early believers who allegedly saw Jesus and ended up being persecuted and killed for that?  Today, nearly 2000 years after the events we can see a powerful entity such as the Catholic Church.  But in the years immediately after Jesus, there was no colossus of a church, there were no riches and glory.  There was death and persecution.  Tell me, if those original followers who allegedly saw Jesus were lying, and doing so to try and gain power and wealth, when they were persecuted and lined up to be executed, which do you feel would be the more likely event:

Scenario A - Just before execution, the person cries out "Look, this is all a mistake, Jesus wasn't really real, we just thought we could make a quick buck out of this.  I recant my statement and from henceforward will follow the status quo.

Scenario B - I go to my death knowing that my Lord Jesus is with me and has prepared a place for me in heaven.  I shall pray for you before I die.

It should be obvious to anyone reading that the more likely scenario to play out would be scenario A.  IF they were lying.  If they were NOT lying, then scenario B begins to look more realistic.


View PostHavocWing, on 31 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

What about the popes and all the crusades?  Vatican City has enough wealth to feed the entire world, learned that on the history channel.  Now why don't you prove that what they said is the truth?
I touched on this briefly in my last comment, but while today it may be tempting to say the Catholic church is rich, the fact remains that in the 1st Century AD they were not rich, and did not get rich.  Instead they got persecution and death.  It is a fallacy to point to the wealth of the modern church and use that as evidence that the biblical writers were lying, they were not rich.

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#62    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 31 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

What about the popes and all the crusades?  Vatican City has enough wealth to feed the entire world, learned that on the history channel.  Now why don't you prove that what they said is the truth?
I suppose if you count all the art and architecture.  Not terribly liquid.


#63    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:33 AM

Atheism and Theism is about the existence of deities. The debate is on if deities are real. I.E. They both have the same argument.

Passive-Aggressive insults are better?


#64    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:34 AM

Christian martyrs were no different from martyrs of other faiths (such as Druids, whom the Romans really persecuted.  Most of it (except for a short period under Diocletian) was made up by the Christians after they were in power.

A martyr is someone who dies for their beliefs.  All that proves is that they believe.


#65    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:36 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 01 February 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Atheism and Theism is about the existence of deities. The debate is on if deities are real. I.E. They both have the same argument.

Passive-Aggressive insults are better?
You keep saying that, and I don't get it.  One argues they are real, the other that they are not.  This is opposite argument, not the same.


#66    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:10 AM

Opposite argument of the same idea.

Think about it like math. What is the opposite of 1 it's -1.
What happens when you put them both together it's 0.

That is what the difference really are. The differences start to show when you add more junk to the debate.

Hence the nothing from something vs something from something. That is what the real argument should be about but everybody is too scared to admit it

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 February 2013 - 07:18 AM.


#67    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:15 AM

Tis a puzzlement.  I take it you are proposing some sort of paradox, but what?


#68    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:20 AM

No paradox. The paradox/Argument only comes from not going through the equation completely.

Honestly you are served no better by being an atheist or being a theist.

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 February 2013 - 07:23 AM.


#69    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:31 AM

Oh.  Well I'm not interested in what serves me better.  If I am persuaded something is true, then I can't help but believe it, regardless of whether it serves me or not.

Let me provide an example: one not-so-fine day my boss calls me into the office and tells me to clean out my desk and leave -- I'm fired.  Now, this does not serve me at all, but do I just choose to not believe it?  It doesn't work like that.

Most religion is based on wishful thinking; we would like for it to be true and so we manage to persuade ourselves that it is true.  I suppose that is okay if it makes us happy, but for some people it just doesn't work.  They have an intellectual honesty that forces them to try to see the world as it really is.  In the end I think they are probably better off, as they avoid wasting a lot of time and money.

I find it impossible to believe in God, at least as generally presented, not because there is no evidence (although that is part of the case) but because of the irrationality.  No matter how desirable such a belief might be, that has no effect on me.


#70    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

That is the thing about the debate about God. Nobody really knows how to define it correctly. I default to agnostic or ignostic(If I'm feeling playful)

You being fired. That was clearly defined by your boss. instead of it being 1 and -1 comparison. That scenario is more of a true/false scenario.( 1 or 0)  So there is something to actually compare.

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 February 2013 - 07:42 AM.


#71    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:50 AM

I think the undefinability is a good reason for non-belief.  The theist constantly moves the goal post.


#72    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:53 AM

Not really the problem isn't theism alone the problem is trying to compare all walks of theism to all walks of atheism(or just looking at the most insane groups) . That is when the contradictions tend to appear.

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 February 2013 - 07:55 AM.


#73    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:10 AM

I don't doubt beings exist "out there" with intelligence and will and so on besides ourselves -- the universe is too big for it to be otherwise.  However, they are not divine, no matter how smart or powerful or advanced they may be.

Now I would see no difference between one of these and one of the deities of one of the standard polytheistic religions.  Just because Jupiter can hurl thunderbolts doesn't make him divine.

So what would make a being divine -- a "God?"  Certainly something more than just great power or great wisdom, and so on.  I suppose being infinite is one way we could come to say a being is divine.  Even here I have trouble with definition.  An infinite stack of books goes on forever, but is still just a stack of books, and other similar stacks could also exist.  A being with infinite knowledge knows an endless amount of stuff, but there could still be worlds outside his ken.

Various "omni-" proposals for God also exist -- omni present, omnipotent, omni-beneficent (that one really is meaningless), omniscient.  These lead to the self-referential logical contradictions that even the Scholastics understood but never answered -- except to move the goal post (God is omnipotent except He can't do something against His nature), which goes back to saying He is just another Jupiter.  (An omniscient God, too, leads logically to a world where free will and random events are impossible.  Some Christians realize this and jump through all sorts of hoops about it, getting nowhere).


#74    Jinxdom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:18 AM

That is where the nothing from something argument part comes in and why people generally don't like it.
Theism in general though doesn't have any contradictions nor does atheism. Depending on how far you go on either side of the fence is when it starts to get strange and confusing.

*edited because didn't need the quote :P

Edited by Jinxdom, 01 February 2013 - 08:21 AM.


#75    Tiggs

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 01 February 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Hence the nothing from something vs something from something. That is what the real argument should be about but everybody is too scared to admit it

I expect that the answer is that the Universe exists in a Closed Timelike Curve. As such, it has no need for a prime cause, just as a circle has no need for a starting point.

The Universe is, has and always will be.

Amen.





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