Abortion

[midtown5dw]

So in todays world, We have Christians bombing abortion clinics and right wingers say thing that the constitution needs to ban abortion, when being conservative means not letting the gov into your personal affairs. a little hypocritical?

My issue with this is, there should be a seperation of church and state right? So how could you base a amendment on something supported solely by religion? Also, who is to say if a fetus is aborted, that the soul that would have gone into that vessel wouldnt just go into another body?

Well thats my view on it...... Feel free to rip me to shreds now.

[Cradle of Fish]

People who are fiercely pro life, ie to the point of violence and continuous picketing do not think at all about the future. The planet is overpopulated as it is, we don't need any more unplanned babies clogging up our natural resources. It's a womans body, she has control of it, including her bodily functions which is all pregnancy is.

We need to start loving the people that we already have, and make the world a better place before we should even consider having children.

[Rosewin]

I used to feel sympathetic towards the Army of God. The abortion clinic bombers. But murder is murder either way so cannot morally support them.

Abortion is like child sacrifice to me when it is done just as a matter of convenience or to preserve a lifestyle. When it is done to preserve the mother's life or not harm her then that is different. The rest to me are just baby killers IMHO

As a form of population control or eugenics it is pretty disgusting as well.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Clovis

[midtown5dw]

I used to feel sympathetic towards the Army of God. The abortion clinic bombers. But murder is murder either way so cannot morally support them.

Abortion is like child sacrifice to me when it is done just as a matter of convenience or to preserve a lifestyle. When it is done to preserve the mother's life or not harm her then that is different. The rest to me are just baby killers IMHO

As a form of population control or eugenics it is pretty disgusting as well.

yes but again.... how can you say that soul wont flourish somewhere else? Christians can't push the "theory" on the whole country.

[Rosewin]

Not interested in pushing the theory that is just my honest view. Just because the soul ends up in heaven does not take away from the baby murder aspect of it at all IMHO

[Grandpa Greenman]

It is up to the woman to choose, it is her body.

[midtown5dw]

Not interested in pushing the theory that is just my honest view. Just because the soul ends up in heaven does not take away from the baby murder aspect of it at all IMHO

i dont mean to say the soul would just go to heaven, how do you know they wont end up in another body here on earth?

[KyrusRose]

None Christian... had 2 miscarriages before having one healthy baby.. and then losing the ability to have any more, ever. And you know what? I say its a womans choice and anyone who has a problem with it can stuff a can in their pie hole and get over it. One thing I HATE about pro-lifers is their narrow mindedness. Holding up signs saying "You have a choice" but the fine print always says "but it has to be OUR choice, not yours". Any woman who gets pregnant and wants to abort likely has a good reason.. her OWN reason, and she doesn't need anyone telling her different. Clinics provide information for alternatives, and give counseling if they see the need.. thats their job, not the religious fanatics standing in the parking lot trying to intimidate poor girls.

When it is done to preserve the mother's life or not harm her then that is different.

A woman who has no stable job, no home, and no way to take care of herself for the 9 months it takes to bare a child.. yes.. having a child in those conditions DOES hurt the mother and, in the end, the child. And its not for you or anyone else to tell her shes a bad person for making HER choice.

And the Christians who are out there with their posters and fliers calling these women sinners.. The church tells us not to use condoms.. until the church is willing to pay for all the children born because of that closed minded ideal.. they can shove it.

[Rosewin]

i dont mean to say the soul would just go to heaven, how do you know they wont end up in another body here on earth?

I read the OP but that is not my view.

A woman who has no stable job, no home, and no way to take care of herself for the 9 months it takes to bare a child.. yes.. having a child in those conditions DOES hurt the mother and, in the end, the child. And its not for you or anyone else to tell her shes a bad person for making HER choice.

And the Christians who are out there with their posters and fliers calling these women sinners.. The church tells us not to use condoms.. until the church is willing to pay for all the children born because of that closed minded ideal.. they can shove it.

Forget about sin then. What about responsibility? If you cannot raise a child then you have no business getting pregnant. Ya, use condoms or something. She is a bad person and a murderer. This one issue is my hot button. If I had a chance to vote against it I would in a heartbeat as long as it allowed for preservation of a woman's health and allowed them for that reason only.

Edited May 13, 2008 by Clovis

[KyrusRose]

I read the OP but that is not my view.

Forget about sin then. What about responsibility? If you cannot raise a child then you have no business getting pregnant. Ya, use condoms or something. She is a bad person and a murderer. This one issue is my hot button. If I had a chance to vote against it I would in a heartbeat as long as it allowed for preservation of a woman's health and allowed them for that reason only.

You do realize that in many states birth control is a social stigma.. parents refuse to tell their children, schools are only allowed to teach abstinence, not birth control, and girls are practically encouraged to have children as young as 14.. There are programs in schools where I live to help pregnant teens get their GEDs... and these are posted as if the system is asking them to get pregnant. How about you vote on something important, like mandatory sex and pregnancy prevention education?

[Guyver]

So in todays world, We have Christians bombing abortion clinics and right wingers say thing that the constitution needs to ban abortion, when being conservative means not letting the gov into your personal affairs. a little hypocritical?

My issue with this is, there should be a seperation of church and state right? So how could you base a amendment on something supported solely by religion? Also, who is to say if a fetus is aborted, that the soul that would have gone into that vessel wouldnt just go into another body?

Well thats my view on it...... Feel free to rip me to shreds now.

Interesting how you and others call it a fetus. Just a little globule really, a tiny insignificant ball of flesh. How about this IT'S A BABY!!!!!!!!!

[Cradle of Fish]

Interesting how you and others call it a fetus. Just a little globule really, a tiny insignificant ball of flesh. How about this IT'S A BABY!!!!!!!!!

Actually it is by definition a fetus.

"Why is it when it's us it's an abortion, but when it's a chicken it's an omelette?" - George Carlin

[KyrusRose]

Actually it is by definition a fetus.

"Why is it when it's us it's an abortion, but when it's a chicken it's an omelette?" - George Carlin

Hah.. I like that.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

So in todays world, We have Christians bombing abortion clinics and right wingers say thing that the constitution needs to ban abortion, when being conservative means not letting the gov into your personal affairs. a little hypocritical?

My issue with this is, there should be a seperation of church and state right? So how could you base a amendment on something supported solely by religion? Also, who is to say if a fetus is aborted, that the soul that would have gone into that vessel wouldnt just go into another body?

Well thats my view on it...... Feel free to rip me to shreds now.

Abortion is a tricky, sensitive issue. Firstly, I believe the only instance in which a woman should get an abortion is if she was raped. Otherwise, she's just being irresponsible. Sure, 14, 15, 16, etc year olds opt for abortions when they get pregnant, but that's just because they don't use birth control, don't know what in the world they're doing, cannot support a baby by themselves, and don't understand what the consequences of their actions will be. I think abortion needs to be attacked at it's source; educating people about safe-sex methods, getting rid of the myths about sex (i.e. standing up during sex means the woman won't get pregnant, withdraw method is a way to not get a woman pregnant, douching after sex prevents pregnancy, etc[btw, none of those work]), and making birth control available to everyone. If we just took time to educate people, we wouldn't have the issue of abortion at all, or it would at least be drastically reduced. But, I digress. As for abortion, I don't feel that a child is truly "alive" until it can survive without nourishment from it's mother, which is around 35 weeks at the youngest. Babies before that cannot survive without nutrition, oxygen, and a blood supply from it's mother, so in all honesty it is just a parasite. As harsh as that sounds it's pretty much true. Yes, it's a baby, but that doesn't make it a God. Abortion beyond that point is relatively painful to the mother, just plain gory, and is emotionally straining. But, if a woman chooses to abort a child, that is her decision and her decision alone. No one else has control over her body but the woman in question. Also, we cannot have an amendment based off of a Christian concept, because 1. Not everyone is a Christian, so not everyone agrees with Christian beliefs 2. We have separation of church and state and 3. We have the freedom of religion, and if we imposed a Christian rule, then we would be compromising that very privilege. In short, we cannot impose this law because we would be taking away constitutional rights from those who do not conform to this Christian concept. We might as well say that mass has to be held in all schools, or that an entire class has to be devoted to Bible study, or that no one can eat pork. How long until one concept turns into more, if not all the concepts? It's not something we can risk if we wish to remain a free nation. Furthermore, it depends on what one considers an abortion. Miscarriage can be caused by drinking, drugs, smoking, malnutrition, and trauma to the mother. Cannot those be considered "abortions" as well, because the mother is in complete control over her own actions?

Also, there are instances when an abortion is necessary in order to save the mother's life. Ectopic pregnancies are when a fetus grows in a place other than the uterus, most commonly the Fallopian tubes. In this situation, if the baby is allowed to grow, the Fallopian tubes will rupture, causing the mother to bleed to death in a horrifically painful way. Is that fair? The ONLY way to save the mother is to abort the baby, so can it be considered "evil" if the mother has to do this to save her own life? I think not, because the baby would die anyway. One life, or two? If abortions are not legal, then what happens to these mothers? Do they just suffer and die because religious people cannot keep their opinions to themselves?

Edited May 13, 2008 by Lady Otterwynnd

[Lady Otterwynnd]

Interesting how you and others call it a fetus. Just a little globule really, a tiny insignificant ball of flesh. How about this IT'S A BABY!!!!!!!!!

Not until about 30 weeks of developing is a child any more than a ball of growing flesh and tissues. In the first few days, the baby is merely a ball of a few dozen cells until it implants itself into the uterine wall where it will continue to grow until it reaches maturity. The baby doesn't even have a gender until it's about 6 weeks old. Most of the major organs develop within the first 30 weeks of a pregnancy, but the baby is far from "complete". The skeleton is barely formed, the child is hairless, the lungs have yet to fully develop, and many more. So no, the entity in question is not a conventional "baby" until it's nearly ready to be born. Until then, it's a developing fetus, or more simply, a ball of growing flesh and tissues.

[Guyver]

Actually it is by definition a fetus.

"Why is it when it's us it's an abortion, but when it's a chicken it's an omelette?" - George Carlin

Let's take a minute and examine your logic. You are equating a human baby with a chicken's egg. OK - that's point #1. George Carlin as a source? That's like getting Andrew Dice Clay to do a class on homosexuality.

#2. Your labels - Which would you rather kill given a choice, a fetus or a baby? Everyone kills the fetus because killing a baby is unthinkable. So by creating a nice "label" for the baby, you can eliminate it's value. Why not start labeling invalids, or mental r******s or whatever. Then we could do like the Nazi's and just start killing everyone we don't like. save the word fetus for medical and science classes and let's talk about babies in the real world.

#3. Overpopulation, the Starving, and Allocating Resources: instead of complaining about these issues, how bout we start pointing the finger of personal responsibility? USE SOME FLIPPING BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!! It's free for you, all of my hard earned tax dollars make sure of it.

[Pythia]

I am in favor of abortion, only because a woman who doesn't want a baby, doesn't deserve one.

Making a woman who doesn't want a child have one, only hurts the child. IMO

I also don't think abortions should be performed after 12 weeks gestation. That's 3 months, the woman has had plenty of time to make up her mind.

I couldn't possibly go so far as to say 30 weeks. My oldest child was born at 27 weeks, he spent 2 weeks in a neonatal unit, only because he couldn't regulate his body temperature, his lungs and everything else were fine. He's 19 now and in college.

So I wouldn't go that far.

[Lady Otterwynnd]

Let's take a minute and examine your logic. You are equating a human baby with a chicken's egg. OK - that's point #1. George Carlin as a source? That's like getting Andrew Dice Clay to do a class on homosexuality.

#2. Your labels - Which would you rather kill given a choice, a fetus or a baby? Everyone kills the fetus because killing a baby is unthinkable. So by creating a nice "label" for the baby, you can eliminate it's value. Why not start labeling invalids, or mental r******s or whatever. Then we could do like the Nazi's and just start killing everyone we don't like. save the word fetus for medical and science classes and let's talk about babies in the real world.

#3. Overpopulation, the Starving, and Allocating Resources: instead of complaining about these issues, how bout we start pointing the finger of personal responsibility? USE SOME FLIPPING BIRTH CONTROL!!!!!!! It's free for you, all of my hard earned tax dollars make sure of it.

Yet, a growing baby and a growing chicken are nearly the same thing. Is there that much difference between a chicken and a human embryo? No. Not at all.

Chick:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Labs/...0x_PC231462.JPG

http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/_images/natura...pment_chart.jpg

http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/bio...ize/1876_fs.jpg

Human:

http://embryo.soad.umich.edu/carnStages/allStagesButtons.gif

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/li...0-0-0-0-0-0.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...c_Pregnancy.jpg

Really, they're very similar, even though we're more emotionally attached to the human embryo.

#2. Human embryos are mere balls of growing flesh until around 30 weeks of development. Until then, they CANNOT survive without being nourished and protected within the mother. They're more akin to parasites than living babies. See my previous post for a more detailed description.

#3. Teenagers ARE NOT encouraged to use birth control. Some religions are even against it. Catholics cannot use birth control, so if they have sex, they're going to get pregnant. Maybe if the church changed it's views we would be able to stop teenage pregnancy. Most teenagers ARE NOT educated about sex and birth control, so they don't use it, or the media and their friends tell them that it makes them seem less "masculine" if they use condoms. It's the media, religion, and society's faults that we have such a high rate of teenage pregnancy. The most effective way to stop this is to attack it at it's source, which is EDUCATION. If we educated the population, we wouldn't have the need for so many abortions.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Lady Otterwynnd

[glorybebe]

Yet, a growing baby and a growing chicken are nearly the same thing. Is there that much difference between a chicken and a human embryo? No. Not at all.

Chick:

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Labs/...0x_PC231462.JPG

http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/_images/natura...pment_chart.jpg

http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/bio...ize/1876_fs.jpg

Human:

http://embryo.soad.umich.edu/carnStages/allStagesButtons.gif

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/li...0-0-0-0-0-0.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...c_Pregnancy.jpg

Really, they're very similar, even though we're more emotionally attached to the human embryo.

#2. Human embryos are mere balls of growing flesh until around 30 weeks of development. Until then, they CANNOT survive without being nourished and protected within the mother. They're more akin to parasites than living babies. See my previous post for a more detailed description.

#3. Teenagers ARE NOT encouraged to use birth control. Some religions are even against it. Catholics cannot use birth control, so if they have sex, they're going to get pregnant. Maybe if the church changed it's views we would be able to stop teenage pregnancy. Most teenagers ARE NOT educated about sex and birth control, so they don't use it, or the media and their friends tell them that it makes them seem less "masculine" if they use condoms. It's the media, religion, and society's faults that we have such a high rate of teenage pregnancy. The most effective way to stop this is to attack it at it's source, which is EDUCATION. If we educated the population, we wouldn't have the need for so many abortions.

Exactly, instead of complaining about what they kids are taught in sex ed, make sure they are taught exactly what they need to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Have free condom machines in schools. I can't believe the people who think that kids won't fool around if they are kept in the dark. And the parents who are surprised that their little baby is either pregnant or got a girl pregnant, come on! They are lucky if they are JUST pregnant, with the STDs flying around out there, we really need to educate our youth to ensure that they aren't going to be dead in a few years from AIDS and HEP C. Even Syphilis is making a come back because kids aren't educated enough.

[stargazer123]

So in todays world, We have Christians bombing abortion clinics and right wingers say thing that the constitution needs to ban abortion, when being conservative means not letting the gov into your personal affairs. a little hypocritical?

My issue with this is, there should be a seperation of church and state right? So how could you base a amendment on something supported solely by religion? Also, who is to say if a fetus is aborted, that the soul that would have gone into that vessel wouldnt just go into another body?

Well thats my view on it...... Feel free to rip me to shreds now.

Seperation of church and state? There is no seperation of church and state if you want to know the truth. I will tell it plainly from my point of view. When I was once a devout christian I remember sitting in church during the first election Bush was running. The preacher stood upon his mighty pulpit saying descreet things such as "the election is coming up and we can't tell you who to vote for but I think you know who should vote for." after service we found our way to our cars where someone had convienently stuck pictures of aborted fetuses on our windshields with inscriptions like "if you vote democratic you promote murder." The church has been imploring their followers to do many things for a long time. They follow the church blindly like sheep to the slaughter it is a more suttle form of the crusades. Politicians as well feed on people religious beliefs to get their seat on the throne the people shooting up abortion clinics are just flunkies for the bigger picture of what is happening. It is a vicisious cycle and the very reason I have made near future plans to move out out of this country if only to escape it in my lifetime.

Edited May 14, 2008 by stargazer123

[MUM24/7]

I personally wouldn't have one but I defend another woman's right to have an abortion if she wants........

It's such a personal issue that Goverments and Churches and Pro-life groups and do-gooders should not stick their noses in this OR have a say in the matter, as far as I'm concerned......If a woman wants an abortion, for whatever reason, she'll get one, no questions asked......

I would rather it's in a safe clinical sterile environment but that's just my opinion.....

[LadyHay]

I personally wouldn't have one but I defend another woman's right to have an abortion if she wants........

It's such a personal issue that Goverments and Churches and Pro-life groups and do-gooders should not stick their noses in this OR have a say in the matter, as far as I'm concerned......If a woman wants an abortion, for whatever reason, she'll get one, no questions asked......

I would rather it's in a safe clinical sterile environment but that's just my opinion.....

Agreed 100%. I wouldn't be able to do it.

If we make abortions illegal, how many young girls are we going to lose from botched illegal backstreet abortions or self abortions? I remember back to when I was 16, old enough (I thought) for some things, but definitely not able to raise and support a baby. If I got pregnant at that age, a decision would be a VERY scary thing to make.

There is an option that no one else has mentioned and that is adoption. I, being adopted myself, am very pro-adoption; however more and more kids are having babies and keeping them. Whilst a childless family remains childless, despite wanting one so bad it aches.

I don't like abortion, but not having it or making it illegal creates more devastation and grief.

Edited May 14, 2008 by LadyHay

[Wootloops]

For whatever reason a girl wants an abortion it doesn't matter to me. I would rather the person getting the abortion to have a better life then to have her life ruined by a baby. I could care less about a fetus or whatever you would like to call it.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Wootloops

[Belle.]

They should be safe, legal, rare and performed early in the pregnancy.

I don't want kids but I don't know if I would be able to have an abortion, never been in that situation thank goodness.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Belle.

[Enigmatic Ghost]

Hearts

Ok I do understand that this is a debate thread but I will not come back after posting this and debate it what I wrote here, I do not want to live the pain of heart I am now in having to write this to show your hearts and make my points clearly heard, respect to all Pavot…

My Thoughts upon Murdering of hearts, please do hear me out, this not what you may be thinking, I have killed hearts in my lifetime, the first time I was only Eighteen, in High school, in Love, living in my own apartment, a full time job and going to School as well, I was a man, but my Parents as they decided to forcibly make use and they did make us have an abortion, it killed a lot of hearts a baby (Fetus-Life) it killed our hearts then, and still does to this day, thirty plus years after the apportion and will until we die, we take such things such heart choices to our graves and live in these heart choices daily and nightly awake and in our dreams, only if you are willing to sever and I mean to numb and change your hearts forever should you make what I believe strongly for any reason not the right choice as in to take a life.

The next time that I killed, my heart and hers and her families, was a few years after, my wee young family desperately needed the food and I went out and took a life, I took carefully skilled aim and the bullet ripped through her sending her many feet into the air as her back bone broke in two, her sisters stood there in great horror and shock and turned and fan off and I let them, numb myself and very sick within my heart, this Man’s heart, I destroyed her precious life and her children’s and her families, I hear her cry out in great pain and agony to this day it is haunting I watched the life leave from within her eyes her spirit went…

If you think that you are a tough hearted person, if you think you can face that mirror and look into those eyes I am betting I know you will kill more than the heart of that wee baby, I struggle in my writing and my many struggles emotionally and physically show in my daily writing in the moods of, but let me tell you this, what that wee baby is going to show you of your own heart, is your own call my friends, that wee life and life it is will show you your heart every day for the rest of your life, and I do, God my dear friends I do want that baby to shows you the Love of your hearts and not the horrible tormenting pain within, it is love now but if you change it to pain it will be your own call and you will live it daily for the rest of your lives, I am a huge strong Man a tuff son of a B. I have chased down bears in wilder youth and fought many battles but I have never even expected that I would I would crumble and hate my own self for taking those two lives the life of my own wee baby (Fetus-Life-hearted one) never showing my hearts love and life and a does life killing her and her families hearts.…

I suggest you print off these words I wrote and every time or that one time you have to make that dissection you read the wise world of this old Indian Grandfather…

Pavot

Edited May 14, 2008 by Pavot