168 replies to this topic

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 26 January 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

Still written by people eh.. ? So can we very well assume that people as Humans are prone to mistakes and cannot provide us with the exact values and truths that are to be accepted as word of GOD ?

So we wrote it and then we try to make people treat it as word of GOD ? New Testament people's philosophy of life (according to the period they lived in) doesn't con-inside with our's, so why what they wrote then is still the gospel truth for us ?

One more thing, when you can decide that believing the New Testament is better then believing the Old Testament, How can you claim everyone else not practice what they feel is better for them. I may say that I like the Old Testament better, would you contradict then or tell me that me to me and yours to yours ? If so is the case then why not trust the OP's belief too and respect it and then answer ?

Everyone MUST practice what is "sincerely true and right" to them. But how many of us do what is convenient for us instead of doing what we sincerely believe is true and right?
To me it does not matter. I CHOOSE to believe that ALL THE LAWS OF MOSES can be fulfilled by following these two commandments of Jesus.
1. Love the lord your God (The Spirit of Truth and Righteousness) above all else.
2. Love your neighbor as your self, which is simply law number one put into action.

People wrote it, but from whence did the inspiration or revelation of its TRUTH come from?

The concepts expressed in the teachings of Jesus and in the ten commandments are true in every single individuals life.
Do we do what is right even if it is inconvenient?
Or do we take the easy way.
We  can sit and enjoy the flavours of our favorite foods for  hours and hours... that is convenient and pleasant ... unti.. our teeth rot, our stomachs bulge, and all too soon life is not as pleasant as it could have been had we done what we knew was right, stop eating and start excercising and getting sleep.
Why do we make the wrong choices and not do the right thing.

Anthony Robbins expressed some ideas. Short term pain, Long term gain. Short term pain, Long term  gain. Its all in the choices we have to make.
We often choose short term gain until the long term pan forces us to stop.
We learn from our mistakes and pain, some sooner than others.
If we are really lucky we will learn from the pain of others or we will learn from our parents or our teachers or our preachers.


We discovered it and then wrote it down for future generations to consider.

Many have expressed the same concepts through out history. No one has to believe it. We are free to "deny" the truth, avoid it use project to escape it as being our own  judgement of ourselves, but in the end, there is a judgement where there is no more need for our brain to protect us and our ego with the above mentioned layers that coat us so we do not feel the guilt and shame and self recriminations and reproach. A day when we can no longer hide from the truth and then we can cry tears of shame and repentence, and the closer we are to the end of or life when that happens the less tie we have to make amends or find the joy and freedom that comes from ...just doing the right thing.

There is a saying "Some people never learn". Why? We do not get to choose the parents we are born to or the country or the city or the ghetto we are born into. We often do not get to choose the circumstances and happenstances that life throws at us. We do not get to learn the easy way. Smetime we are not even lucky enough to survive and learn the hard way. There but for the grace of GOD go I. Is "their" god an evil god to have not allowed them the luxuries afforded others.

SO lets blame God. Lets not realizae that WE are the hands of God and if OUR hands refuse to do the will of God then put the blame where it belongs. On us.
We have heard shouts of "Give me freedom or give me death" as we charge into battle to kill those who threaten our right to freedom.
But when God gives us freedom and we choose to use that freedom to kill and maim others, to not help the less fortunate among us we want to blame god.

hmmm.....

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 26 January 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Well i guess that then you require no answer and no debates.

It's Final.

Peace unto you is all I can say.

I do not debate. I simply share my opinions and ideas.

And even for me it is not "final", it is my current belief unless someone comes up with a better one. But hey I will incorporate everything people say into my belief if I feel it will improve it.
I require all the answers I can get, feel free to fill me in if you see something you think is missing from my current belief  system.

And Peace to you as well, each of us must find his own peace and if we choose share it with others so they may partake of that same peace we have found if they so choose.

[Shabd Mystic]

james1951, on 26 January 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

But there is the concept of how can we access this Spirit of God, unless we know it exists in the first place.

If I tell you about an amazing friend of mine and you think he sounds "too good to be true," and I give you directions to his house and say he wants to meet you, when you show up could it be possible that he won't be there because you don't believe he exists?

The way you access God is by going to his "front door." "Knock and it shall be opened to you." That isn't "symbolic" or a metaphor or anything but plain language. As is so much of the Bible, despite what has been taught by countless people who weren't able to understand because they never actually 'experienced" what Christ tried to teach.

...

... I just deleted several paragraphs that I'd written to answer you because I finally realized i was getting back into the world of 'ego" that I'm trying so hard to escape. The truth is this isn't about "me" or "my beliefs" or "my opinion" as that is all meaningless. If I said anything that "hit home" for anybody, that's great. just keep searching and you'll find the Truth. And I promise it will be so far beyond what all the religions teach that the human mind can't even comprehend it (and every bit is available to you WHILE YOU ARE ALIVE - waiting until you die will do you no good whatsoever).

I'll just say (and this is to anyone reading this, and not directed to the poster I was responding to) that all the answers are out there for anyone who is more interested in TRULY finding God than in serving the ego by defending any "beliefs" they might hold (usually disguised by the belief that "I'm doing God's work" by defending those beliefs or by 'spreading" those beliefs, as if God would ever need YOU to help Him in the first place).

Seek and ye shall find ... or get wrapped up in your own ego and thinking YOU already found the answer, and enjoy life with the comfort that "belief" gives you. The infinite afterlife won't be all that wonderful, but at least the next few years will seem a little better as you walk around thinking that God loves you so much He went to the trouble of leading you to the TRUTH. (I wonder why He hates the rest of the world so much?)

[Spock_the_Future]

james1951, on 27 January 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Everyone MUST practice what is "sincerely true and right" to them. But how many of us do what is convenient for us instead of doing what we sincerely believe is true and right?
To me it does not matter. I CHOOSE to believe that ALL THE LAWS OF MOSES can be fulfilled by following these two commandments of Jesus.
1. Love the lord your God (The Spirit of Truth and Righteousness) above all else.
2. Love your neighbor as your self, which is simply law number one put into action.

People wrote it, but from whence did the inspiration or revelation of its TRUTH come from?

The concepts expressed in the teachings of Jesus and in the ten commandments are true in every single individuals life.
Do we do what is right even if it is inconvenient?
Or do we take the easy way.
We  can sit and enjoy the flavours of our favorite foods for  hours and hours... that is convenient and pleasant ... unti.. our teeth rot, our stomachs bulge, and all too soon life is not as pleasant as it could have been had we done what we knew was right, stop eating and start excercising and getting sleep.
Why do we make the wrong choices and not do the right thing.

Anthony Robbins expressed some ideas. Short term pain, Long term gain. Short term pain, Long term  gain. Its all in the choices we have to make.
We often choose short term gain until the long term pan forces us to stop.
We learn from our mistakes and pain, some sooner than others.
If we are really lucky we will learn from the pain of others or we will learn from our parents or our teachers or our preachers.


We discovered it and then wrote it down for future generations to consider.

Many have expressed the same concepts through out history. No one has to believe it. We are free to "deny" the truth, avoid it use project to escape it as being our own  judgement of ourselves, but in the end, there is a judgement where there is no more need for our brain to protect us and our ego with the above mentioned layers that coat us so we do not feel the guilt and shame and self recriminations and reproach. A day when we can no longer hide from the truth and then we can cry tears of shame and repentence, and the closer we are to the end of or life when that happens the less tie we have to make amends or find the joy and freedom that comes from ...just doing the right thing.

There is a saying "Some people never learn". Why? We do not get to choose the parents we are born to or the country or the city or the ghetto we are born into. We often do not get to choose the circumstances and happenstances that life throws at us. We do not get to learn the easy way. Smetime we are not even lucky enough to survive and learn the hard way. There but for the grace of GOD go I. Is "their" god an evil god to have not allowed them the luxuries afforded others.

SO lets blame God. Lets not realizae that WE are the hands of God and if OUR hands refuse to do the will of God then put the blame where it belongs. On us.
We have heard shouts of "Give me freedom or give me death" as we charge into battle to kill those who threaten our right to freedom.
But when God gives us freedom and we choose to use that freedom to kill and maim others, to not help the less fortunate among us we want to blame god.

hmmm.....

James,
  
Were the both (All the text you have been quoting) were written by Us Miserable Humans or not ?

I Have often wondered, why do you religious evangelists never reply what is asked. In a statement in X-FILES it says "Lawyers ask the wrong questions only when they do not want the right answers".

I fully expect you to dance around the OP's question and my response and post something irrelevant. I would never blame you for that, It's the nature.

Thanks for your interest anyway.

[james1951]

Shabd Mystic, on 27 January 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

If I tell you about an amazing friend of mine and you think he sounds "too good to be true," and I give you directions to his house and say he wants to meet you, when you show up could it be possible that he won't be there because you don't believe he exists?

The way you access God is by going to his "front door." "Knock and it shall be opened to you." That isn't "symbolic" or a metaphor or anything but plain language. As is so much of the Bible, despite what has been taught by countless people who weren't able to understand because they never actually 'experienced" what Christ tried to teach.

...

... I just deleted several paragraphs that I'd written to answer you because I finally realized i was getting back into the world of 'ego" that I'm trying so hard to escape. The truth is this isn't about "me" or "my beliefs" or "my opinion" as that is all meaningless. If I said anything that "hit home" for anybody, that's great. just keep searching and you'll find the Truth. And I promise it will be so far beyond what all the religions teach that the human mind can't even comprehend it (and every bit is available to you WHILE YOU ARE ALIVE - waiting until you die will do you no good whatsoever).

I'll just say (and this is to anyone reading this, and not directed to the poster I was responding to) that all the answers are out there for anyone who is more interested in TRULY finding God than in serving the ego by defending any "beliefs" they might hold (usually disguised by the belief that "I'm doing God's work" by defending those beliefs or by 'spreading" those beliefs, as if God would ever need YOU to help Him in the first place).

Seek and ye shall find ... or get wrapped up in your own ego and thinking YOU already found the answer, and enjoy life with the comfort that "belief" gives you. The infinite afterlife won't be all that wonderful, but at least the next few years will seem a little better as you walk around thinking that God loves you so much He went to the trouble of leading you to the TRUTH. (I wonder why He hates the rest of the world so much?)

We  all have access to the same God. How we choose to perceive of him is based on our life experiences for the most part. But I still think the golden rule is the closest thing to understanding the concept of truth and righteousness if one is willing to sincerely understand it.

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 27 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

James,
  
Were the both (All the text you have been quoting) were written by Us Miserable Humans or not ?

I Have often wondered, why do you religious evangelists never reply what is asked. In a statement in X-FILES it says "Lawyers ask the wrong questions only when they do not want the right answers".

I fully expect you to dance around the OP's question and my response and post something irrelevant. I would never blame you for that, It's the nature.

Thanks for your interest anyway.

The "text" are mere words. As Jesus said about the religious leaders of his time. Listen to the text, or words they tell you for they hold the words of moses/god. But do not do what they do for they do not know the SPIRIT or the context of that text or those words.

It is often said such words are "inspired". What does that mean? The serpent and satan used gods own words. BUT not in the correct context, but instead infering those words were said out of an evil motive and with intent to do harm to adam and eve and Jesus. Well actually to deny adam and eve of the pleasures they could enjoy if it they would just ignore gods loiving advice.

All the words I have written above are just expression of concepts which I have gathered from reading the bible and listening to the spirit of Christ to interpret for me.

It is the SPIRIT, and inspiration and context of those words, not the the words themselves.

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 27 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

James,
  
Were the both (All the text you have been quoting) were written by Us Miserable Humans or not ?

I Have often wondered, why do you religious evangelists never reply what is asked. In a statement in X-FILES it says "Lawyers ask the wrong questions only when they do not want the right answers".

I fully expect you to dance around the OP's question and my response and post something irrelevant. I would never blame you for that, It's the nature.

Thanks for your interest anyway.

About the lawyers, they also say a lawyer should never askl a question he does not know the answer to. Perhaps such lawyers are not prepared to accept any other answer except the one the expect to hear and want to hear and need to hear to make their case?

[Spock_the_Future]

james1951, on 27 January 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I do not debate. I simply share my opinions and ideas.

And even for me it is not "final", it is my current belief unless someone comes up with a better one. But hey I will incorporate everything people say into my belief if I feel it will improve it.
I require all the answers I can get, feel free to fill me in if you see something you think is missing from my current belief  system.

And Peace to you as well, each of us must find his own peace and if we choose share it with others so they may partake of that same peace we have found if they so choose.

Hi James,
        
I have seen a bit of posts that you have made. You do believe in what you say then until you do try to open yourself to things otherwise you will never have an addition to your thoughts, And sincerely this is not a reflection on the way of your life, I am so sorry if you think that it points in that way. You are the best person for yourself.

But anyway it is final in the way you say it. Let us again with respect to whatever is final with us or not take up what OP is saying. no long comments, should we not now take up a few distinct points to discuss about ?

What should be those points ? Or we will be arguing in-definitively, Lets repeat, Is GOD also the DEVIL ?

and I believe Lawyers are Liars first.

[Spock_the_Future]

james1951, on 27 January 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

About the lawyers, they also say a lawyer should never askl a question he does not know the answer to. Perhaps such lawyers are not prepared to accept any other answer except the one the expect to hear and want to hear and need to hear to make their case?

Well James a lawyer does ask a question which he does not have a answer to, she/he just needs to know that the question or answer does not point to the way they do not intend to go. There are Lawyers and there are Lawyers James.

Peace be unto You I repeat.

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 27 January 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Hi James,
        
I have seen a bit of posts that you have made. You do believe in what you say then until you do try to open yourself to things otherwise you will never have an addition to your thoughts, And sincerely this is not a reflection on the way of your life, I am so sorry if you think that it points in that way. You are the best person for yourself.

But anyway it is final in the way you say it. Let us again with respect to whatever is final with us or not take up what OP is saying. no long comments, should we not now take up a few distinct points to discuss about ?

What should be those points ? Or we will be arguing in-definitively, Lets repeat, Is GOD also the DEVIL ?

and I believe Lawyers are Liars first.

Why would what I believe be (final) considering I muut have progressively got to this belief.

You probably haven't read the posts where I conjecture that none of this is real and that we are all just the "dream"  or firing synapses of our god the dreamer. Gee I could also conjecture that dreamer is just one of many dreamers each the god of their own universe, and wonder if those universes exist alongside each other and could be joined  in a telepathic  connection (aliens, demons, ghosts?)

I just wrote a message in another thread where I said that The Satanists God is the same as mine. Because I believe there is  ONE GOD that created the universe.

So they ALL have to be the same God and we all just have our own perception of that same God.

You have to define what the devil represents. If he does NOT represent the creator, then he cannot be God. Sorry for the long post.


In Summary I suppose one could choose to make "the devil" or "satan", their personal lord god, but there is only one creator god, IMHO so if they choose to say their god created the universe then their god is the same god I believe in but i do not have the same perception of that God as they do.

[james1951]

Spock_the_Future, on 27 January 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

Well James a lawyer does ask a question which he does not have a answer to, she/he just needs to know that the question or answer does not point to the way they do not intend to go. There are Lawyers and there are Lawyers James.

Peace be unto You I repeat.

You mean like "if it doesnt fit you must acquit".
What stupidity.

Why couldnt OJ have just picked up someone elses gloves. I have done plenty of things with gloves that did not fit.

And to try to make the witnesses sound like liars? The big mistake is trying to make the evidence fit the crime instead of making the crime fit the evidence,

Maybe we could use that kind of logic here? But then this is based on faith, not evidence.

[Spock_the_Future]

james1951, on 27 January 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

You mean like "if it doesnt fit you must acquit".
What stupidity.

Why couldnt OJ have just picked up someone elses gloves. I have done plenty of things with gloves that did not fit.

And to try to make the witnesses sound like liars? The big mistake is trying to make the evidence fit the crime instead of making the crime fit the evidence,

Maybe we could use that kind of logic here? But then this is based on faith, not evidence.

I never meant like "if it doesnt fit you must acquit".
I meant Lawyers change the direction of the questions. Aren't you doing the same ? Do we still remember what the OP asked and what is the discussion about ?

Should we start answering some of it now ?

Edited by Spock_the_Future, 27 January 2012 - 01:22 AM.

[libstaK]

Shabd Mystic, on 26 January 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

NOTE: In the following I began by saying things such as "it is said" or "they teach," but i got tired of adding that with every line I typed so i stopped. If it looks as if I am trying to make such claims, it is only for that reason. I am only sharing something that "could" answer this and so many other questions of this sort. "My" beliefs are meaningless.


Many mystical traditions throughout history (Gnostics, Sufis, Sikhs, and many others) taught that the entity most think of as "God" is just the "ruler of creation." He is also "the creator" who the "True" God originally created in order to make all that we see (and don't see) and to keep it "running."

He is neither good nor evil, but runs "existence" on a strict rule of "justice." Some religions call it "karma." ("Ye reap what ye sew.")

When "bad" things happen, he is thought of as "Satan." When "good" things happen, he is thought of as "God." But, in actuality, it is taught that he only "dishes out" what YOU created via your own actions in numerous other lifetimes.

There is soooooo much more, but I know I've already bored everyone to death with such "craziness" so I'll leave it at that and let everyone tear it down so they can show how what "they" believe is the truth and everything else is false (for those paying close attention, try to recall what I said about the 'ego" being one of the "creator god's" greatest tools).

I wasn't bored at all, it was well put I thought - many will disagree with the nature of the beast of Karma though and that it could be a part of the God of Christianity in particular, in spite of copious evidence: An eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth, as ye reap so shall ye sew (as you quoted also), Judge not lest thou be judged, love one another as I have loved you.

Really, it is stated in ever so many ways, I believe to reach as many diverse souls as possible who may see and comprehend fully only the one (and in doing so get to understand them all).

It is a vital key in comprehending "God as the Devil", when we do not like the reaping as much as the sowing we give credit to the Devil for the result.  When we like the reaping, though the sowing was hard work and filled with sacrifice - we give credit to God.  In fact the same force has assured the outcome in both instances, all accounts are ultimately balanced.

[Shabd Mystic]

libstaK, on 27 January 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

many will disagree with the nature of the beast of Karma though and that it could be a part of the God of Christianity in particular, in spite of copious evidence

No doubt, lol. Which brings to mind the following quote:

Quote

"Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founder's than any other agency in the world."

~ Richard le Gallienne

[Abramelin]

HavocWing, on 09 January 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Taken from http://en.wikipedia....od_as_the_Devil

The teaching of God as the Devil has been an accusation leveled at various Christian heretics from the 2nd century to the medieval period. In the modern period authors, such as Thomas Paine, have made the case that the Biblical god is a divine force that wreaks suffering, death, and destruction and that tempts or commands humanity into committing mayhem and genocide.

I already think that he is/if not more evil then the devil.  With all the blood on his hands.

I also think it's better to just start a topic in the hopes of not cluttering up others posts.

Also think that he is very narcissistic

No answers here, just some interesting ideas about Go(o)d and (D)Evil:



Either God wants to abolish evil and cannot,
or he can but does not want to,
or he cannot and does not want to,
or lastly he can and wants to.

If he wants to remove evil, and cannot,
he is not omnipotent;
If he can, but does not want to,
he is not benevolent;
If he neither can nor wants to,
he is neither omnipotent nor benevolent;
But if God can abolish evil and wants to,
how does evil exist?

Epicurus, Greek philosopher (3rd century BCE)


===


Lucifer

"The physicists now are certain," he said, "that all the known processes in nature were once part of a single, unified force."

Kinderman paused and then spoke more quietly. "I believe that this force was a person who long ago tore himself into pieces because of his longing to shape his own being. That was the Fall," he said, the 'Big Bang': the beginning of time and the material universe when the one became many - legion. and that is why God cannot interfere: evolution is this person growing back into himself."
We are the Fallen Angel. We are the Bearer of Light.We are Lucifer."

From "Legion"
by William Peter Blatty


===


According to Dr. H.J. Witteveen ("Universal Sufism"),

Sufism understands "The Father" to be "The-Whole-of-Existence-Itself" which is a single living being. In this view, "God" is the only "Being" that exists at all, and the various orders of "individual" organisms are like minute "reflections" of that Absolute Self in the ripples of Space-Time. Each one of us is like a "Holographic Projection" of that One Self, our experience of "seperatness" coming from our identification with the electro-chemical organic machine which is picking up our conciousness like a radio station.