Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Scientist admits to study of Roswell debris!


  • Please log in to reply
331 replies to this topic

#241    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 31,500 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:51 AM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 11 September 2009 - 10:21 PM, said:

You have no idea how much I feel with Marcel and the other witnesses. In my opinion the Government should give these persons a proper apology and money for the damages they were exposed for.


How has Moore and Shandera come into the mix?

Why do they come into the conversation every time Marcel is shown to have confused facts?

You and I have not mentioned Moore or Shandera in this discussion, what have they got to do with the claims Marcel himself made to Irving, Pratt, Marcel Jnr., Randall etc?

I think we know who it is that is that is trying to be misleading, don;t we ;)

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#242    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 10:32 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 14 September 2009 - 07:45 AM, said:

So, should the ridiculous scenario of a crashed ET craft be the true version of events,, you think nobody has received any advances from this. It is just hanging on someone's wall somewhere?

Now THAT is a trophy. Screw Bigfoot, Nessie and Sasquatch. :D  

Quote

What do you think we would do with a crashed ET craft? As it allegedly travels space, it should be quite beneficial to our space program, would you not agree? As it must have traversed the speed of light, we would want to know something about that, you know, surpassing our highest knowledge and all, wouldn't we?

Actually, that is one of the big illusions of the downed ET craft hypothesis in my mind. I don't think the proponents of such really understand the magnitude of the scientific and engineering task it would be to reverse engineer something so alien, so advanced. There seems to be this idea that it can be done by a few bespectacled geeks hidden away somewhere deep under Area 51. Just feed 'em pizza, coke and coffee and out comes a stream of new gadgets based on alien technology.

Naturally, the world doesn't work like that. To undertake something like that new advances in physics, math, propulsion, metallurgy, electronics etc etc would have to be made, requiring the foremost brains of the world collaborating on cracking that nut. We are talking thousands and thousands of people, and people talk. Completely new measurement equipment would have to bade made and so on. Just give a scientist from 1947 an Intel XEON processor. The poor guy wouldn't stand a chance of figuring out what it was without a lot of help and that is only a 60 year span. He would only be able to look at it by destructive testing and thus have no means of probing and prodding it afterwards to see what it actually did. Not that he would be able to before anyways.  

However, the biggest argument against this is the Soviet Union. Any scientific endeavor trying to crack the secret of an ET spacecraft would most certainly be discovered by the KGB some years after it happened, say the early to mid 1950s. Think how they would react if there was even the smallest chance of Roswell actually happened as proposed. The Soviets would then be looking at a United States of America with technology at their hands that could possibly render the entire Soviet weapons arsenal, including their small nuclear stockpile at the time, completely and utterly useless if the US could extract ET tech. What would the Soviets have done? They would most likely have tried the UN and requested that the US shared the tech. If not, well, then the Soviets were looking at their rapid demise and given the Soviet War plans released in the 1990s, I think it is a safe assumption to make that they would have invaded Europe and most likely engaged the US in war.

Either way, we would know.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#243    NigelTM

NigelTM

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,314 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2008

Posted 14 September 2009 - 11:39 AM

View Postbadeskov, on 14 September 2009 - 10:32 AM, said:

Now THAT is a trophy. Screw Bigfoot, Nessie and Sasquatch. :D  



Actually, that is one of the big illusions of the downed ET craft hypothesis in my mind. I don't think the proponents of such really understand the magnitude of the scientific and engineering task it would be to reverse engineer something so alien, so advanced. There seems to be this idea that it can be done by a few bespectacled geeks hidden away somewhere deep under Area 51. Just feed 'em pizza, coke and coffee and out comes a stream of new gadgets based on alien technology.

Naturally, the world doesn't work like that. To undertake something like that new advances in physics, math, propulsion, metallurgy, electronics etc etc would have to be made, requiring the foremost brains of the world collaborating on cracking that nut. We are talking thousands and thousands of people, and people talk. Completely new measurement equipment would have to bade made and so on. Just give a scientist from 1947 an Intel XEON processor. The poor guy wouldn't stand a chance of figuring out what it was without a lot of help and that is only a 60 year span. He would only be able to look at it by destructive testing and thus have no means of probing and prodding it afterwards to see what it actually did. Not that he would be able to before anyways.  

However, the biggest argument against this is the Soviet Union. Any scientific endeavor trying to crack the secret of an ET spacecraft would most certainly be discovered by the KGB some years after it happened, say the early to mid 1950s. Think how they would react if there was even the smallest chance of Roswell actually happened as proposed. The Soviets would then be looking at a United States of America with technology at their hands that could possibly render the entire Soviet weapons arsenal, including their small nuclear stockpile at the time, completely and utterly useless if the US could extract ET tech. What would the Soviets have done? They would most likely have tried the UN and requested that the US shared the tech. If not, well, then the Soviets were looking at their rapid demise and given the Soviet War plans released in the 1990s, I think it is a safe assumption to make that they would have invaded Europe and most likely engaged the US in war.

Either way, we would know.

Cheers,
Badeskov
Well put, Bad, but never, ever, let logic get in the way of belief. It ruins the story.  ;)


#244    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 11:47 AM

View PostNigelTM, on 14 September 2009 - 11:39 AM, said:

Well put, Bad, but never, ever, let logic get in the way of belief. It ruins the story.  ;)

My apologies, I stand corrected :D It won't happen again ;)

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#245    Ra_Sun-God

Ra_Sun-God

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,129 posts
  • Joined:18 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 14 September 2009 - 12:41 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 14 September 2009 - 07:51 AM, said:

How has Moore and Shandera come into the mix?

Why do they come into the conversation every time Marcel is shown to have confused facts?

You and I have not mentioned Moore or Shandera in this discussion, what have they got to do with the claims Marcel himself made to Irving, Pratt, Marcel Jnr., Randall etc?

I think we know who it is that is that is trying to be misleading, don;t we ;)
Oh, I see you don't know much about Moore and Shandera. Let me tell you something about them. They miscredittet Marcel on purpose by putting their words into his mouth.

And peaking of misleading. I tell you what, Moore and Shandera tried to mislead what Marcel really said. And they did that succesfully at a period of time.


#246    Ra_Sun-God

Ra_Sun-God

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,129 posts
  • Joined:18 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 14 September 2009 - 01:08 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 14 September 2009 - 10:32 AM, said:

Now THAT is a trophy. Screw Bigfoot, Nessie and Sasquatch. :D  



Actually, that is one of the big illusions of the downed ET craft hypothesis in my mind. I don't think the proponents of such really understand the magnitude of the scientific and engineering task it would be to reverse engineer something so alien, so advanced. There seems to be this idea that it can be done by a few bespectacled geeks hidden away somewhere deep under Area 51. Just feed 'em pizza, coke and coffee and out comes a stream of new gadgets based on alien technology.

Naturally, the world doesn't work like that. To undertake something like that new advances in physics, math, propulsion, metallurgy, electronics etc etc would have to be made, requiring the foremost brains of the world collaborating on cracking that nut. We are talking thousands and thousands of people, and people talk. Completely new measurement equipment would have to bade made and so on. Just give a scientist from 1947 an Intel XEON processor. The poor guy wouldn't stand a chance of figuring out what it was without a lot of help and that is only a 60 year span. He would only be able to look at it by destructive testing and thus have no means of probing and prodding it afterwards to see what it actually did. Not that he would be able to before anyways.  

However, the biggest argument against this is the Soviet Union. Any scientific endeavor trying to crack the secret of an ET spacecraft would most certainly be discovered by the KGB some years after it happened, say the early to mid 1950s. Think how they would react if there was even the smallest chance of Roswell actually happened as proposed. The Soviets would then be looking at a United States of America with technology at their hands that could possibly render the entire Soviet weapons arsenal, including their small nuclear stockpile at the time, completely and utterly useless if the US could extract ET tech. What would the Soviets have done? They would most likely have tried the UN and requested that the US shared the tech. If not, well, then the Soviets were looking at their rapid demise and given the Soviet War plans released in the 1990s, I think it is a safe assumption to make that they would have invaded Europe and most likely engaged the US in war.

Either way, we would know.

Cheers,
Badeskov
Is big foot your picture version of an ET from outer space?  :D Seems there are something wrong with your brain, sorry I mentioned the word "wrong". Does a big foot look like a Grey alien to you? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, is it really difficult for you to see the difference between big foot and a Grey Alien? I'm truly sorry if it is so difficult for you, because then you are suffering of some sort of a long term disease, and in case you really are suffering of long term disease, then I will of course stop making fun of you.

http://history.nasa.gov/sputnik/

As you can see, the world's first satellite (Sputnik) was first launched in space in 1957 (10 years af the Roswell Incident). So the KGB could impossible had watched the crashed ET spacecraft in 1947 from above.

The Soviets giving their war plans in 1990? I very very doubt that. Seems your knowledge on human beings are very little. Do you know that this planet Earth is populated by humans world wide, and not only you? Do you know about other people's cultures and feelings? Seems your knowledge in that area is very very small. And your knowledge about Russian people are very small too. Don't talk about SOVIET WAR PLANS WHEN THERE WERE NEVER SUCH THING! The Russians are more likely interested in peace, and don't want to TAKE THE FIRST STEP IN EVENTUAL NUCLEAR WAR BETWEEN USA AND RUSSIA (INCLUDING FORMER SOVIET UNION). Are USA not interested in peace? You live in USA, don't you? You must know how much USA is interested in peace, please speak out, Badeskov. Do you really hate Russia? Do you you really think that the Russians was about start a war? What is wrong with your brain, Badeskov? The Russians are not interested to start a nuclear war, Badeskov, in that case you misunderstood something there......

You mentioned Area 51. If you really are interested to know more about secret bases including underground bases, then just ask. There seems to be secret bases including underground bases all over the world. Wauw, it is a mysterious world, is'nt it?

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 14 September 2009 - 01:41 PM.


#247    The Sky Scanner

The Sky Scanner

    Observer

  • Member
  • 5,624 posts
  • Joined:30 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • The loud ones never last!

Posted 14 September 2009 - 01:27 PM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 14 September 2009 - 01:08 PM, said:

The Russians are more likely interested in peace,

:blink:

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble

#248    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 01:39 PM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 14 September 2009 - 01:08 PM, said:

Is big foot your picture version of an ET from outer space?  Posted Image Seems there are something wrong with your brain, sorry I mentioned the word "wrong". Does a big foot look like a Grey alien to you? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, is it really difficult for you to see the difference between big foot and a Grey Alien? I'm truly sorry if it is so difficult for you, because then you are suffering of some sort of a long term disease, and in case you really are suffering of long term disease, then I will of course stop making fun of you.

What is it with you and sarcasm/humor? It seems to be flying right over your head. It was a joke, but next time I will remember to explicitly state that so I am sure you get it too.

Quote

http://history.nasa.gov/sputnik/

As you can see, the world's first satellite (Sputnik) was first launched in space in 1957 (10 years af the Roswell Incident). So the KGB could impossible had watched the crashed ET spacecraft in 1947 from above.

Huh? Posted Image Do you really think I was talking about satelittes and spyplanes doing images of Roswell? Good grief, Ra. The Soviets didn't do overhead imaging of the Manhattan project either, yet the KGB had it deeply penetrated. If the US had a major effort somewhere, you can count on the Soviets being there to look over their shoulders.

It is called humint (human intelligence gathering) and the KGB was excessively good at it.  

Quote

The Soviets giving their war plans in 1990? I very very doubt that.

I suggest you read up on history then. E.g. here. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1989 and the Soviet War plans where, among other places, in the archives in the former DDR (East Germany). They were released as part of the dissimenation of former official, classified and non-classified material.

Quote

Seems your knowledge on human beings are very little. Do you know that this planet Earth is populated by humans world wide, and not only you? Do you know about other people's cultures and feelings? Seems your knowledge in that area is very very small. And your knowledge about Russian people are very small too. Please don't talk about SOVIET WAR PLANS WHEN THERE WERE NEVER SUCH THING!The Russians are more likely interested in peace, and don't want to TAKE THE FIRST STEP IN EVENTUAL NUCLEAR WAR BETWEEN USA AND RUSSIA (INCLUDING FORMER SOVIET UNION). Are USA not interested in peace? You live in USA, don't you? You must know how much USA is interested in peace, please speak out, Badeskov.

I suggest you read the war plans before stating something you know absolutely nothing about. Just to pique your curiousity, then the plans for Denmark were nuclear and chemical first strikes over Copenhagen, Southern Jutland and strategic defense points (like Stevns fortet). That was then to be followed up by a land invasion by East German forces through Southern Jutland and an  invasion by East German and Polish naval forces to capture the remains of Copenhagen and to ensure the straits were open for the Soviet Baltic fleets.

Those plans were not very peaceful and very purposely operated using first use of both nuclear and chemical tactical weapons. Of course, those attacks would be completely dwarfed by the central european theatre operations.

Quote

You mentioned Area 51. If you really are interested to know more about secret bases including underground bases, then just ask. There seems to be secret bases including underground bases all over the world. Wauw, it is a mysterious world, is'nt it?

Of course there are secret bases. That is to expected. But I don't think they are secret for the reasons you would like to believe.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 14 September 2009 - 01:42 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#249    Ra_Sun-God

Ra_Sun-God

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,129 posts
  • Joined:18 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 14 September 2009 - 03:04 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 14 September 2009 - 01:39 PM, said:

What is it with you and sarcasm/humor? It seems to be flying right over your head. It was a joke, but next time I will remember to explicitly state that so I am sure you get it too.

Huh? Posted Image Do you really think I was talking about satelittes and spyplanes doing images of Roswell? Good grief, Ra. The Soviets didn't do overhead imaging of the Manhattan project either, yet the KGB had it deeply penetrated. If the US had a major effort somewhere, you can count on the Soviets being there to look over their shoulders.

It is called humint (human intelligence gathering) and the KGB was excessively good at it.  

I suggest you read up on history then. E.g. here. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1989 and the Soviet War plans where, among other places, in the archives in the former DDR (East Germany). They were released as part of the dissimenation of former official, classified and non-classified material.

I suggest you read the war plans before stating something you know absolutely nothing about. Just to pique your curiousity, then the plans for Denmark were nuclear and chemical first strikes over Copenhagen, Southern Jutland and strategic defense points (like Stevns fortet). That was then to be followed up by a land invasion by East German forces through Southern Jutland and an  invasion by East German and Polish naval forces to capture the remains of Copenhagen and to ensure the straits were open for the Soviet Baltic fleets.

Those plans were not very peaceful and very purposely operated using first use of both nuclear and chemical tactical weapons. Of course, those attacks would be completely dwarfed by the central european theatre operations.

Of course there are secret bases. That is to expected. But I don't think they are secret for the reasons you would like to believe.

Cheers,
Badeskov
Yes, I know there were both CIA agents in the Former Soviet Union, and KGB Agents in USA. The part of the Cold War.

I have read your interesting link. Very interesting:

While most Western planners were convinced that any first strike would lead to total mutual destruction, the plan - written in matter-of-fact language - shows that Warsaw Pact nations presumed a massive ground war would follow nuclear attacks.

Mr Lunak described the military plans as “fairy tale” thinking based on World War II warfare: “They (the Soviets) really planned to send ground troops out in the field and have them fight for a few days until they died from radiation,” he said.

The final draft of the invasion plan was completed under Soviet Communist Party chief Nikita Khrushchev, shortly after the 1961 Cuban missile crisis, when the United States and the Soviet Union had teetered on the brink of war.

According to the Prague documents, Moscow’s commanders fully expected western “imperialists” to make the first nuclear strike.

Mr Lunak includes the plans, as well as interviews with Czech generals of the time in his book, Planning the Unthinkable: Czechoslovak War Plans, 1950-1990.

The first English translation of the text was published earlier this month by the Parallel History Project on Cooperative Security, which analyses and publishes declassified NATO and Warsaw Pact archives.

Vojtech Mastny, a senior fellow at the National Security Archive in Washington, D.C., who coordinates the project, said the 1964 document is the first such detailed war plan to come to light. “There’s no doubt that the plan would have been used if the green light was given from above - the political leadership of the communist bloc,” he said.


What I don't understand is, why sending soldiers out in the same field were the nuclear strike occoured, that is a suicide mission i will say. Including after they made a nuclear strike at Copenhagen and Southern Jutland too, and then afterwards sending troops in? It does'nt make sense, just another suicide mission. That is madness.

Anyway, seems war plans were made by both sides:

http://www.nrdc.org/...ar/nwarplan.asp

Exposing the U.S. Nuclear War Plan

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 14 September 2009 - 03:10 PM.


#250    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 03:12 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 11 September 2009 - 08:00 PM, said:

Yes, I want to hit upon  memory metal  because it possess the properties the Roswell witnesses were describing long before they knew anything about memory metal. There could be more to that story because not only were the Roswell witnesses describing such properies, the folks at Wright-Patterson AFB, where exotic research and hardware are produced, were noting that the Roswell debris exihibited exotic properties as well.

Nope. Shape Memory Alloy (SMA) was first discovered in 1932 and research was conducted in what later became Nitinol in 1938, well before Roswell.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited for clarity.

Edited by badeskov, 14 September 2009 - 03:13 PM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#251    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 03:23 PM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 14 September 2009 - 03:04 PM, said:


What I don't understand is, why sending soldiers out in the same field were the nuclear strike occoured, that is a suicide mission i will say. Including after they made a nuclear strike at Copenhagen and Southern Jutland too, and then afterwards sending troops in? It does'nt make sense, just another suicide mission. That is madness.

Anyway, seems war plans were made by both sides:

http://www.nrdc.org/...ar/nwarplan.asp

Exposing the U.S. Nuclear War Plan

It is quite interesting read, albeit a bit chilling at times ;)

Indeed, both sides had war plans ready. Regarding sending troops into areas where nuclear and/or chemical weapons had been used, that was a sacrifice that had to be made.

The Soviets estimated casualty rates in excess of 50% for the initial invading Polish and East German forces. The problem was to get the straits through Denmark opened as fast as humanly possible so as not to trap the Soviet Baltic fleet in the Baltic Sea where they could do little good. That therefore entailed to minize any defensive capabilities Denmark might possess and then send in occupation forces to ensure that defensive capabilities were not restored. It would have been a costly affair, but necessary nonetheless.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#252    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 03:41 PM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 14 September 2009 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yes, I know there were both CIA agents in the Former Soviet Union, and KGB Agents in USA. The part of the Cold War.

I have read your interesting link. Very interesting:


By the way, some more interesting information here:

http://www.php.isn.e...m?navinfo=16446

Quote


The Danish Straits

The Navy was to support the northern wing of the front attacking along the coast. The first exercises of this "teamwork between naval and land forces" were conducted in 1954. At that time, the naval forces were stronger than what was planned for mobilization. This changed in subsequent years, as less investment was made in the navy than in the other armed forces. After the Warsaw Pact was founded in 1955, cooperation was built up with the USSR's Baltic Fleet and the GDR navy. From the early 1960s on, these forces together formed the United Fleet. Its main goals were to dominate the Baltic Sea, cooperate on a landing operation on the Danish isles, and secure free access to the North Sea.

A landing on the Danish coast was prominent in plans being made in 1961-63. Selected for this mission were the Seventh Landing Division ("blue berets") and the Sixth Air-Landing Division ("red berets"). These units were being prepared for an air-sea operational landing on the Danish isles located between Great Belt and ěresund (including Zealand). The Polish divisions would be backed up by the Baltic Fleet, Soviet air-landing and marine units, and a landing regiment of the National People's Army of the GDR.

In 1962-73, Polish shipyards constructed 23 ships intended for the Second Brigade of Landing Ships stationed in Świnoujście. Plans were also made to buttress the landing forces with ships mobilized from the civilian fleet. After gaining control of Zealand, the landing forces could be used to launch an attack on southern Norway, around Oslo.

Quote



A Polish Nuclear Attack

"It is desirable to consider (...) nuclear attacks on such centers as Hannover or Brunswick, Kiel and Bremen. The destruction of these cities will likely cause a complete disorganization of political life, the economy, etc. It will significantly influence the creation of panic in areas of nuclear strikes. The exploitation of the effects of strikes by our propaganda may contribute to the spread of panic among enemy armies and populations (...). In order to exclude Denmark from the war as quickly as possible, nuclear strikes should be launched at Esbjerg (an important strategic point in the NATO system) and Roskilde (Zealand Island), and subsequently a widespread special propaganda action aimed at deepening the existing panic should be conducted to warn Denmark's troops and civilian population of the consequences of further resistance and the threat that, in the event of continuation of the war, further atomic strikes will occur."
(Excerpt from a presentation by the commander of the Polish Front, General Zygmunt Duszyński, in 1961)



And a wealth of information here: :)

http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/index.cfm

Quite chilling stuff, some of it ;)

Cheers,
Badeskov



"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#253    Ra_Sun-God

Ra_Sun-God

    Poltergeist

  • Banned
  • 2,129 posts
  • Joined:18 Nov 2008
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 14 September 2009 - 04:40 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 14 September 2009 - 03:12 PM, said:

Nope. Shape Memory Alloy (SMA) was first discovered in 1932 and research was conducted in what later became Nitinol in 1938, well before Roswell.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited for clarity.
But, according to the sources you and Hazz it does not state that Nitinol were developed in 1938.

Let me point out to you again:

http://en.wikipedia....y_metal#History (Wikipedia link brought up by Hazzard)

History
The first reported steps towards the discovery of the shape memory effect were taken in the 1930s. According to Otsuka and Wayman (1998), A. Ölander discovered the pseudoelastic behavior of the Au-Cd alloy in 1932. Greninger & Mooradian (1938) observed the formation and disappearance of a martensitic phase by decreasing and increasing the temperature of a Cu-Zn alloy. The basic phenomenon of the memory effect governed by the thermoelastic behavior of the martensite phase was widely reported a decade later by Kurdjumov & Khandros (1949) and also by Chang & Read (1951).

The nickel-titanium alloys were first developed in 1962–1963 by the Naval Ordnance Laboratory and commercialized under the trade name Nitinol (an acronym for Nickel Titanium Naval Ordnance Laboratories). Their remarkable properties were discovered by accident. A sample that was bent out of shape many times was presented at a laboratory management meeting. One of the associate technical directors, Dr. David S. Muzzey, decided to see what would happen if the sample was subjected to heat and held his pipe lighter underneath it. To everyone's amazement the sample stretched back to its original shape.

There is another type of S.M.A., called a ferromagnetic shape memory alloy (FSMA), that changes shape under strong magnetic fields. These materials are of particular interest as the magnetic response tends to be faster and more efficient than temperature-induced responses.

Metal alloys are not the only thermally-responsive materials; shape memory polymers have also been developed, and became commercially available in the late 1990s.

As you can see, according to you and Hazz' Wiki-source Nitinol were first discovered in 1963 by Dr. David S. Muzzey. The first reported steps towards the discovery of the shape memory effect were taken in the 1930s. But Wikipedia does not mention about that the effort to make Nitinol was actually started in 1938 at all.


http://americaninvet...mory-metal.html

Memory metal The invention: Known as nitinol, a metal alloy that returns to its original shape, after being deformed, when it is heated to the proper temperature. The person behind the invention: William Buehler (1923- ), an American metallurgist The Alloy with a Memory In 1960, William Buehler developed an alloy that consisted of 53 to 57 percent nickel (by weight) and the balance titanium. This alloy, which is called nitinol, turned out to have remarkable properties. Nitinol is a “memory metal,” which means that, given the proper conditions, objects made of nitinol can be restored to their original shapes even after they have been radically deformed.

But In 1960 (13 years after the Roswell Incident), William Buehler developed same memory metal that return back to it's original shape, and that is 3 years before Dr. David S. Muzzey discovered that.


But since, someone did find out that the development of Nitinol studies actually began just after the Roswell Incident:

http://www.ufodigest...ELL-DEBRIS2.php

The earliest known combination of Titanium and Nickel reported in the scientific literature was in 1939 by two Europeans. However, this crude sample was a "by-product" of research entirely unrelated to the study of Nitinol. Its "memory metal" potential was not sought or noted. The scientists would have been unable to purify Titanium to sufficient levels at that time-and they would not have known about the energy requirement needed to create the "morphing" effect.

The next time that we see the unique combination of Titanium and Nickel emerge in science is by military scientists associated with Naval Intelligence at the US. Naval Ordnance Lab. It was there that Nitinol was "officially" created in the early 1960s. But Nitinol's "official" history –including the date and reasons for discovery- is conflicting. More on this murky history will be detailed in a future article. Recently gained information suggests that it was in fact Battelle's metallurgist and UFO researcher Dr. Howard Cross who "fed" the US Navy information (including the “phase diagram” and details on Titanium processing) that is required to create Nitinol.

Research by this author has confirmed that Nitinol studies actually began at Battelle immediately after the Roswell crash -and not in the early 1960s. And it was Wright Patterson (the base where the crash material was flown) that contracted this secret work.


Are you confused now?  :D

If you are not confused then I hope you have understand clearly by now that the Nitinol studies began just after the Roswell Incident.

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 14 September 2009 - 05:04 PM.


#254    badeskov

badeskov

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,287 posts
  • Joined:27 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please - Mark Twain

Posted 14 September 2009 - 07:10 PM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 14 September 2009 - 04:40 PM, said:

But, according to the sources you and Hazz it does not state that Nitinol were developed in 1938.

Let me point out to you again:

http://en.wikipedia....y_metal#History (Wikipedia link brought up by Hazzard)

<snip>

While Wiki can be good, one also has to take into account that Wiki articles are written by whoever has an interest in writing about a subject and that is why the references used in any given article are so important.

I suggest you read the report by Frederick Wang, the co-inventor of Nitinol. You can find a PDF file here. It's 5.6MB and 107 pages (or so). You don't need to read it all, but just pieces here and there.

If you look at pp. 1, you will find the history of Nitinol or, rather, the Ti-Ni system.

1938: Wallbaum et. al. starts looking into the Ti-Ni system finding
  • A primary solid solution of titanium in nickel exists with the solubility falling with decreasing temperature.
  • The primary solid solution of titanium in nickel forms a eutectic with a congruent melting intermediate phase, TiNi
  • A eutectic on the titanium-rich side of TiNi is bounded by titanium and nickel with slightly variable composition.
1941: Wallbaum3 extended his previous work into the titanium-rich end of the diagram and discovered Ti2Ni which forms a eutectic with a solid solution of nickel in Beta-titanium
And so on and so on it continues. On pp. 7 you will find that Wang describes the discoveries by Buehler and Wiley and subsequently Wang himself that leads to the trade-marking of Nitinol. The development of Nitinol shows a very linear and continuing line of research until the specific composition called Nitinol was trade-marked. Thus, there are no sudden leaps, no bumps, no sudden great inventions or anything like it. And the Ti-Ni system was not a crude by-product, but a very specific research effort as otherwise you don't write scientific papers about it. And it should be noted that what Buehler and Wiley were actually looking for were alloys resistant to heat for missile warhead cones.

But the fact remains that shape memory alloys themselves have been known since 1932 and that Nitinol has a very well documented history going back well before 1947. That it was trade-marked in 1962 with the name Nitinol has no bearing on it's research history. What matters is the careful analysis of the properties if Ti-Ni alloys and the development production facilities (i.e., getting the purity required) as described in the linked reported. That is the important part, namely the research and development history of the material. It didn't just pop up out of nowhere and it certainly wasn't looked at only after 1947 and Roswell.

Quote

Are you confused now?  :D

<snip>

Not confused at all, thanks :P

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#255    Captain Zim

Captain Zim

    A voice in the silence

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,253 posts
  • Joined:07 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johannesburg

Posted 15 September 2009 - 03:54 AM

A lot of new technologies emerged, post-WWII. Heck, transistors, fibre optics, they all trace their roots back to this big industrial expansion. Nitinol is a red herring; what was described by Roswell witnesses has no bearing on it, which has quite different properties. It is possible that this informed research, and perhaps people involved with SMM research could have been consulted as part of a reverse engineering effort.

“I consider it an extremely dangerous doctrine, because the more likely we are to assume that the solution comes from the outside, the less likely we are to solve our problems ourselves.”


-Carl Sagan





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users