Paradise and Hell

[danielost]

Paradise and hell are not what most people think they are. both are holding cells for after death.

paradise is what the jews call heaven. people who go here get to rest from their work on earth.

hell is what everyone thinks of as a pit. but, this is a place for those too reflect on what they did wrong on earth.

in the end all will go to heaven, thanks to christ. how ever heaven has three levels. level one will be on the surface of the earth, ruled by the holy ghost.

level two will be the surviving cities of earth, ruled over by christ. level three is the golden ring, ruled over by god, some of us will become gods.

[barbco196]

Paradise and hell are not what most people think they are. both are holding cells for after death.

paradise is what the jews call heaven. people who go here get to rest from their work on earth.

hell is what everyone thinks of as a pit. but, this is a place for those too reflect on what they did wrong on earth.

in the end all will go to heaven, thanks to christ. how ever heaven has three levels. level one will be on the surface of the earth, ruled by the holy ghost.

level two will be the surviving cities of earth, ruled over by christ. level three is the golden ring, ruled over by god, some of us will become gods.

According to your religion, what are the determining factors? How would a person reach level 3?

[danielost]

sorry, it won't let me post my link. but go king James Corinthians 15 to 40

Edited March 15, 2016 by danielost

[Wickian]

I really hope there is no such thing as heaven or hell. That would mean that even after death we're all still slaves to the "powers that be" and their opinions on what is right and wrong.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Wickian

[StarMountainKid]

If our behavior here on earth determines where we go after death, how much of our behavior are we responsible for? Baby twins, one is raised by irresponsible parents in a gang-infested ghetto, one is raised by loving parents and given every opportunity to grow up in a healthy environment.

One becomes a thug, the other a good and caring citizen. How much responsibility do these two have for their own ultimate personalities and behavior? One goes to hell, the other to heaven. This seems unfair to me.

[barbco196]

If our behavior here on earth determines where we go after death, how much of our behavior are we responsible for? Baby twins, one is raised by irresponsible parents in a gang-infested ghetto, one is raised by loving parents and given every opportunity to grow up in a healthy environment.

One becomes a thug, the other a good and caring citizen. How much responsibility do these two have for their own ultimate personalities and behavior? One goes to hell, the other to heaven. This seems unfair to me.

When you are of age to know right from wrong, then YOU are accountable for EVERY choice you make.

[Grandpa Greenman]

So I go to hell and sit around with all my friends thinking about what I did on earth. Sounds like a party to me. "Remember that time we drove done to the Keys and picked up those girls...."

http://youtu.be/gUyOZS-PyTA

Edited March 16, 2016 by GreenmansGod

[Magnanimus]

I really hope there is no such thing as heaven or hell. That would mean that even after death we're all still slaves to the "powers that be" and their opinions on what is right and wrong.

How would the existence of heaven or hell change that? The primary feature of the Powers-That-Be is that they be, regardless of any other circumstance; the afterlife for mortals being least of these.

Hell, even the most commonly accepted etymology for "Jehovah" is that it comes from the Hebrew "to be" verb. The whole point of being a transcendent...well...being is that they are what they are, regardless of any factor. I mean, it's literally in the name of the thing.

With that in mind, it's mighty presumptuous on your part to suggest that such a being could give a damn about what you get up to, much less setting definitions and parameters for your action's moral repercussions. So what are you worried about?

[Magnanimus]

If our behavior here on earth determines where we go after death, how much of our behavior are we responsible for? Baby twins, one is raised by irresponsible parents in a gang-infested ghetto, one is raised by loving parents and given every opportunity to grow up in a healthy environment.

One becomes a thug, the other a good and caring citizen. How much responsibility do these two have for their own ultimate personalities and behavior? One goes to hell, the other to heaven. This seems unfair to me.

Well, they're also most likely going to end up in two different tax brackets as well. And I have hard time believing the IRS could design and implement a system that more effectively and justly assesses individuals than the one devised by a Deity, whose whole schtick is coming "to judge the quick and the dead."

Do you not think that one of the oldest religious traditions in the world hasn't thought of and answered this exact question?

To whom much is given, much is expected. This question got knocked out in the freaking Cain and Abel narrative--we had all of four people on the planet before the issue was addressed. And in the event that mythological narratives are too metaphorical, the differential expectations based on resources and means are spelled out in Mosaic Law.

And it's answered again in the New Testament, to the point that our very word "talent" is directly taken from the Christian parable about using and growing what's given to us to the fullest of our ability.

People need hard lines in order to keep society running, but the exact measure of a man's spiritual self is impossible for another man to pin down. The particulars of what we've done and even what we are, moment to moment, are of surprisingly little consequence when weighed against what we can be when we embrace and realize what we're capable of. Or, to quote the late Alan Rickman: "...Noah was a drunk. Look what he accomplished. And no one's even asking you to build an ark..."

[Wickian]

How would the existence of heaven or hell change that? The primary feature of the Powers-That-Be is that they be, regardless of any other circumstance; the afterlife for mortals being least of these.

Hell, even the most commonly accepted etymology for "Jehovah" is that it comes from the Hebrew "to be" verb. The whole point of being a transcendent...well...being is that they are what they are, regardless of any factor. I mean, it's literally in the name of the thing.

With that in mind, it's mighty presumptuous on your part to suggest that such a being could give a damn about what you get up to, much less setting definitions and parameters for your action's moral repercussions. So what are you worried about?

I just don't even like the concept of a higher power having the right to judge where a soul will or will not go since I don't believe in the concept of good or evil.

[danielost]

I just don't even like the concept of a higher power having the right to judge where a soul will or will not go since I don't believe in the concept of good or evil.

he isan't going to judge you, you are.

[preacherman76]

I just don't even like the concept of a higher power having the right to judge where a soul will or will not go since I don't believe in the concept of good or evil.

Do you believe in the existence of good and evil?

[Wickian]

Do you believe in the existence of good and evil?

No. What's considered good and evil changes depending on who you ask. Good and evil are just opinions, no different than if someone thinks any specific type of food tastes good or bad.

People can be generous, sadistic, kind, cruel, honest, manipulative, have a lot of empathy, or be completely apathetic, and any combination of everything in between, but not good or evil.

[HalfAnIdiot]

Olam Ha-Ba: The World to Come

The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age. The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being.

In the Mishnah, one rabbi says, "This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." Similarly, the Talmud says, "This world is like the eve of Shabbat, and the Olam Ha-Ba is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat." We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah study and good deeds.

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.

Read the rest here - http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

[StarMountainKid]

For me it's the old thing, what kind of God gives his children birth willy-nilly and then judges them on the result. It's like casting seeds over the landscape, some fall on barren soil, some on fertile soil. Do we blame the seeds for not growing in the barren soil?

[barbco196]

For me it's the old thing, what kind of God gives his children birth willy-nilly and then judges them on the result. It's like casting seeds over the landscape, some fall on barren soil, some on fertile soil. Do we blame the seeds for not growing in the barren soil?

Take a minute and read Matthew 25:14-30. The Parable of the Talents. It answers your question.

[+Hammerclaw]

For me it's the old thing, what kind of God gives his children birth willy-nilly and then judges them on the result. It's like casting seeds over the landscape, some fall on barren soil, some on fertile soil. Do we blame the seeds for not growing in the barren soil?

We are the soil, God's Grace, his gift to us, is the seed. How we nurture it, care for it, how it grows and what we accomplish with it is up to us. Now, the world may be against us, thwart us and prevent us from accomplishment or winning, but in God's eyes, a moral victory is enough.

[StarMountainKid]

barbco126 and Hammerclaw, I think it all comes down to why some people have an epiphany or spiritual awakening, and some do not. The ones who do not may be having too much fun doing wrong. If doing wrong gives them a rush, and they consider doing right as boring, perhaps we should blame brain chemistry for their bad behavior.

What I'm trying to get at is, I think behavior is psychologically and biologically complex. Who exactly is responsible for behavior? By 'who' I mean what entity within the brain/mind/consciousness is guilty? Is there a 'self' independent of personality that can be isolated and held responsible?

Or, is there 'no one home', there is only behavior?

[+Hammerclaw]

barbco126 and Hammerclaw, I think it all comes down to why some people have an epiphany or spiritual awakening, and some do not. The ones who do not may be having too much fun doing wrong. If doing wrong gives them a rush, and they consider doing right as boring, perhaps we should blame brain chemistry for their bad behavior.

What I'm trying to get at is, I think behavior is psychologically and biologically complex. Who exactly is responsible for behavior? By 'who' I mean what entity within the brain/mind/consciousness is guilty? Is there a 'self' independent of personality that can be isolated and held responsible?

Or, is there 'no one home', there is only behavior?

The brain chemistry argument is just a fancy way of abrogating self-responsibility, right up there with the--my genes made me do it--bs. How the brain processes information is non sequitur and not germain to the issue. You are right in that--if you're not religious nothing religious will make much sense. If you're into existentialism, religion will only confuse you further.

[barbco196]

barbco126 and Hammerclaw, I think it all comes down to why some people have an epiphany or spiritual awakening, and some do not. The ones who do not may be having too much fun doing wrong. If doing wrong gives them a rush, and they consider doing right as boring, perhaps we should blame brain chemistry for their bad behavior.

What I'm trying to get at is, I think behavior is psychologically and biologically complex. Who exactly is responsible for behavior? By 'who' I mean what entity within the brain/mind/consciousness is guilty? Is there a 'self' independent of personality that can be isolated and held responsible?

Or, is there 'no one home', there is only behavior?

You may have a point here and it may sound airy fairy to some but that's OK. There have been scientific (yep, said that) studies that have shown certain bacteria can and do affect behavior. Who really knows how much of our micribiome affects our thoughts/consciousness and subsequently, our behavior. Science has only recently taken a deeper interest in this. Fascinating stuff.

[hellig heilige]

God knows whats in your heart. brain is not heart. If its a brain thing then nothing to worry about. Like a tumor in the head that causes people do act violent...............................................................................................................

[Rlyeh]

God knows whats in your heart. brain is not heart. If its a brain thing then nothing to worry about. Like a tumor in the head that causes people do act violent...............................................................................................................

I know what's in your heart too, blood.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Paradise and hell are not what most people think they are. both are holding cells for after death.

paradise is what the jews call heaven. people who go here get to rest from their work on earth.

hell is what everyone thinks of as a pit. but, this is a place for those too reflect on what they did wrong on earth.

in the end all will go to heaven, thanks to christ. how ever heaven has three levels. level one will be on the surface of the earth, ruled by the holy ghost.

level two will be the surviving cities of earth, ruled over by christ. level three is the golden ring, ruled over by god, some of us will become gods.

Well, there seems to be varying differences in belief, of what Heaven and Hell could actually be. I don't know, if it's one person that did one thing, to ensure admittance into Heaven. And I would think events on Earth would complicate things to, wouldn't it?

Like someone committing suicide, in which I have seen as being a sin. Yet, if you commit suicide, by throwing yourself in front of someone intended to be shot, or the like, is it really a heroic act, or seen as a literal act of killing yourself?

I have read some accounts of failed suicide attempts and which their experiences are negative, and then accounts of near death of other ways and accounts as being positive. There might be something to what has been taken into record.

I'm sure, there will be discussions about many different ways to get into Heaven, and not just by one route and by one belief system.

How would the existence of heaven or hell change that? The primary feature of the Powers-That-Be is that they be, regardless of any other circumstance; the afterlife for mortals being least of these.

Hell, even the most commonly accepted etymology for "Jehovah" is that it comes from the Hebrew "to be" verb. The whole point of being a transcendent...well...being is that they are what they are, regardless of any factor. I mean, it's literally in the name of the thing.

With that in mind, it's mighty presumptuous on your part to suggest that such a being could give a damn about what you get up to, much less setting definitions and parameters for your action's moral repercussions. So what are you worried about?

I find this an interesting perspective. But I get what he's saying. Are we always to be under the 'guidance' of something else?

And how is it, we know that for sure? ( I can take into account of this particular forum and reason it as those who have had NDE's back then and that is where you get an idea back then )

But if one looks at it this way, we're talking about leaving our limited body, and then having an existence that is not known to us for a one hundred percent surety. What if there is so much more of this, that we cannot comprehend, that our bodies and our brains have no room to understand of.

The way I see it, we have an OP that reflects on one set of versions of what Heaven and Hell is, but there is no surety of it. There could be many different versions and levels and understandings of the afterlife, that one can doubt the path they believe in now.

Frankly, and from my own personal belief perspective, it's telling me, we should not be allowed to know and for good reason.

he isan't going to judge you, you are.

How do you know for sure? And if we are going to reflect on this, from what I understand, the self does not have the chance to defend or judge themselves. I always thought it was up to that higher power.

I can see where Wickian is coming from. Then again, I always feel, there's no taking orders from someone, but I feel there will be something to guide you. My take mind you.

We are the soil, God's Grace, his gift to us, is the seed. How we nurture it, care for it, how it grows and what we accomplish with it is up to us. Now, the world may be against us, thwart us and prevent us from accomplishment or winning, but in God's eyes, a moral victory is enough.

I can slightly see this.

You may have a point here and it may sound airy fairy to some but that's OK. There have been scientific (yep, said that) studies that have shown certain bacteria can and do affect behavior. Who really knows how much of our micribiome affects our thoughts/consciousness and subsequently, our behavior. Science has only recently taken a deeper interest in this. Fascinating stuff.

Are you saying that these things can be responsible for behaviors?

Where is the line drawn on what one is responsible for and not? I guess, this goes with my point of whether suicide, ( a possible sin ) is considered that, when killing yourself for someone else, but you still killed yourself by your hands. I think this needs to be reflected on here.

I could understand when in court, the insanity defense is used, and then someone is not guilty by reason of insanity. But there is usually a trial to see if that is the case.

Would purgatory be real too, because these are situations and the reasons behind them, do occur? Isn't what Purgatory is for?

Should purgatory be discussed here too?

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

I really hope there is no such thing as heaven or hell. That would mean that even after death we're all still slaves to the "powers that be" and their opinions on what is right and wrong.

All relationships have rules. Would you call all your earthly relationships slavery?

One chooses to be in a relationship; however, it takes at least two entities to have a relationship. What makes a relationship with Christ any different? Does the relationship even exist (since most people have never seen Christ)? There is a MAJOR difference between wooing an invisible god versus having an intimate relationship with a divine being.

Most people also assume that God, Himself, wrote down the rules in the Bible...in flash of a moment. After all, no one has seen the original texts of the New Testament, for example. To top it off, most people base their opinion on someone else's interpretation.

Bookworm or second-hand knowledge is not the same as first-hand knowledge.

In short, is it fair to call an imaginary relationship (since you have never seen nor spoken with Christ) slavery? How would you be able to appraise, evaluate, judge your partner if you had never seen nor met your partner since a relationship is an intimate affair?

Choice, we all have that.

[danielost]

For me it's the old thing, what kind of God gives his children birth willy-nilly and then judges them on the result. It's like casting seeds over the landscape, some fall on barren soil, some on fertile soil. Do we blame the seeds for not growing in the barren soil?

that is the parable of faith. as for those who never heard of christ, they will be judge according to that.