158 replies to this topic

[JGirl]

Orcseeker, on 23 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I do believe it is child abuse. It is forcing the religious beliefs of yourself onto an impressionable young person. It's funny, I've heard a story where Christian parents got upset with Satanist parents teaching their hold their religion. The believed it was wrong to do that and in turn, child abuse. Hypocrisy at its best.

indoctrination isn't always force.
yes it's used in that manner but the actual definition is as follows:
Definition of INDOCTRINATE


1
: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach

2
: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
— in·doc·tri·na·tion \(ˌ)in-ˌdäk-trə-ˈnā-shən\ noun
— in·doc·tri·na·tor \in-ˈdäk-trə-ˌnā-tər\ noun

Examples of INDOCTRINATE

• The goal should be to teach politics, rather than to indoctrinate students in a narrow set of political beliefs.
  
• <indoctrinated children in proper safety procedures>

[Etu Malku]

Orcseeker, on 23 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I do believe it is child abuse. It is forcing the religious beliefs of yourself onto an impressionable young person. It's funny, I've heard a story where Christian parents got upset with Satanist parents teaching their hold their religion. The believed it was wrong to do that and in turn, child abuse. Hypocrisy at its best.

The actual institutions associated with the Left Hand Path (Satanism, Setian, Luciferian, etc.) prohibit membership under 18 for this exact reason. The Freedom of the Will is of utmost importance and programming an adolescent mind is counter-productive to the Left Hand Path.

[Etu Malku]

JGirl, on 23 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

indoctrination isn't always force.
yes it's used in that manner but the actual definition is as follows:
Definition of INDOCTRINATE


1
: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach

2
: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
— in·doc·tri·na·tion \(ˌ)in-ˌdäk-trə-ˈnā-shən\ noun
— in·doc·tri·na·tor \in-ˈdäk-trə-ˌnā-tər\ noun

Examples of INDOCTRINATE

• The goal should be to teach politics, rather than to indoctrinate students in a narrow set of political beliefs.
  
• <indoctrinated children in proper safety procedures>

We're talking about Religious indoctrination where religious groups instruct new members in the principles of the religion.

Indoctrination implies forcibly or coercively causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology.

Some religions have commitment ceremonies for children 13 years and younger, such as Bar Mitzvah, Confirmation, and Shichi-Go-San. In Buddhism, temple boys are encouraged to follow the faith while still very young

Critics of religion, such as Richard Dawkins, maintain that the children of religious parents are often unfairly indoctrinated. The process of subjecting children to complex initiation rituals before they are able to critically assess the event is seen by Dawkins and other critics of religion as cruel.

[JGirl]

Etu Malku, on 23 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

We're talking about Religious indoctrination where religious groups instruct new members in the principles of the religion.

Indoctrination implies forcibly or coercively causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology.

Some religions have commitment ceremonies for children 13 years and younger, such as Bar Mitzvah, Confirmation, and Shichi-Go-San. In Buddhism, temple boys are encouraged to follow the faith while still very young

Critics of religion, such as Richard Dawkins, maintain that the children of religious parents are often unfairly indoctrinated. The process of subjecting children to complex initiation rituals before they are able to critically assess the event is seen by Dawkins and other critics of religion as cruel.

the definition is what it is
note what i bolded and underlined in your post. you need to add an adjective to the word to sway it to your point.

Edited by JGirl, 23 November 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Orcseeker, on 23 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

I do believe it is child abuse. It is forcing the religious beliefs of yourself onto an impressionable young person. It's funny, I've heard a story where Christian parents got upset with Satanist parents teaching their hold their religion. The believed it was wrong to do that and in turn, child abuse. Hypocrisy at its best.

Satanists and christians and atheists all have a right, a duty, and a responsibilty, to teach their beliefs ot their children. Only where the beliefs create harm that is not acceptable to the laws of the society, are a parents rights to educate their child overruled by law. It is not child abuse to teach a child anything no matter how stupid it is.
Only a person opposed to a certain viewpoint will object to a child being taught that viewpoint/ eg I am a capitalist at heart, but govt schools, and thus myself  have to teach  a form of socialism in Australia. I object to this, but do it because it is my job to do so. A parent could teach their child either socialism or capitalism or anythng else and another might object..

[TheBanana]

i wouldnt say that it was abusive to teach your children about your beliefs, as long as your beliefs arent hurting anyone.

i wouldnt even say it was abusive to be the sort of parent who is so afraid of their kid being exposed to other viewpoints that they homeschool them, dont let them watch tv or listen to music and only let them talk to people who follow their religion. as long as theyre meeting their childrens needs for food, shelter and love and not beating them or molesting them, its not abusive (even if i think that isolating kids to that extent is wrong).

[freetoroam]

Mr Walker, on 24 November 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

Satanists and christians and atheists all have a right, a duty, and a responsibilty, to teach their beliefs ot their children.

There is a difference between teaching your child the ways of life based on the natural world around you and how best to use its resources and live in it, to teaching your child something which has been written in a novel hundreds of years ago which has never been proven and can be disproved.

[Etu Malku]

freetoroam, on 24 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

There is a difference between teaching your child the ways of life based on the natural world around you and how best to use its resources and live in it, to teaching your child something which has been written in a novel hundreds of years ago which has never been proven and can be disproved.

Why teach the children that

Quote

the ways of life based on the natural world around you and how best to use its resources and live in it

since a child's undisturbed genius lies in her subjective universe most of the time? Here lies the problem with Mankind, we have this overpowering need to divorce our imagination/subjective universe for that of the physical/objective universe, to squelch any and all of our child-like mind into that of a conformist to what others have decided is "correct" living.

To this I say BS . . . keep the mind fertile, reject anything that is not your own creation, and stay out of this atrophic and soul destroying world created by blind religious fanatics and power mongers.

HAIL SANTA!!

Edited by Etu Malku, 24 November 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

It seems that a judge can force religion...   Boy commits manslaughter and gets sentenced to 10 years to attend church  http://www.huffingto..._n_2146619.html

Church  =  Punishment

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 24 November 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Etu Malku]

Beckys_Mom, on 24 November 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

It seems that a judge can force religion...   Boy commits manslaughter and gets sentenced to 10 years to attend church  http://www.huffingto..._n_2146619.html

Church  =  Punishment

WTF? Is this real?

[freetoroam]

Beckys_Mom, on 24 November 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

It seems that a judge can force religion...   Boy commits manslaughter and gets sentenced to 10 years to attend church  http://www.huffingto..._n_2146619.html

Church  =  Punishment

"Instead of sentencing the teen to prison time, Judge Mike Norman gave him a 10-year deferred sentence. In order to stay out of prison, Alred must graduate from high school; graduate from welding school; take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests for a year; wear a drug and alcohol bracelet, take part in victim's impact panels, and attend church for the next 10 years."
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It turns out the lad goes to church every Sunday anyway, so it will not be a problem, the other bits will probably bother him more.
What gets me is the fact that he is already a church goer and it did not prevent him from becoming a criminal, so can`t see it making a difference now. All I can see it doing is making him believe that cos he is going to church he will be forgiven for his sins, until next time, then he will be forgiven again, until next time, then he will etc etc etc!!!!

[Mr Walker]

freetoroam, on 24 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

There is a difference between teaching your child the ways of life based on the natural world around you and how best to use its resources and live in it, to teaching your child something which has been written in a novel hundreds of years ago which has never been proven and can be disproved.

A christian life, like any religious life, is a LIVING thing. its beliefs and practices are alive in those who practice a religion, and in their impact on the world around them.

I choose to live a biblical form of life because of the collosal benefits it brings to me in physical emotional intellectual and psychological health terms, and to the people in my "community " who benefit from my/our way of life.

I haven't changed some of my basic ethics from when i was an a secular humanist/ atheist, but  others have changed, and I now have more of a duty  responsibilrty to care for all others because of our connection to god. God is, for me, a real live physical entity, and so personally i would be lieing and a fool not to teach children i loved and was responsible for the multitude of benefits my life, connected to god, has brought me.

I would do the same for a capitalist life style.  Teach my children; get a good job you love doing, save your money rather than spend it on material goods, invest it well, and then use the interest to help others.

[freetoroam]

Mr Walker,
you say "I now have more of a duty  responsibilrty to care for all others because of our connection to god." does this mean that if you had no connection to god, you would not feel the same duty and responsibility to care for others?
If that is the case, then i will go back to my original part of my post where I say that parents should  teach their child the ways of life based on the natural world around them and how best to use its resources and live in it. Each child should be taught how to respect their surroundings and their fellow man. If the parent wishes to tell their child about a religion, then fine, but that should not come before the teaching of our natural world and should not be used as a substitute to replace our natural instincts.
From what I have read about wars throughout history, the connection between god and caring has not worked. Many wars have been over religion.

Edited by freetoroam, 24 November 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[Etu Malku]

freetoroam, on 24 November 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

"Instead of sentencing the teen to prison time, Judge Mike Norman gave him a 10-year deferred sentence. In order to stay out of prison, Alred must graduate from high school; graduate from welding school; take drug, alcohol and nicotine tests for a year; wear a drug and alcohol bracelet, take part in victim's impact panels, and attend church for the next 10 years."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
It turns out the lad goes to church every Sunday anyway, so it will not be a problem, the other bits will probably bother him more.
What gets me is the fact that he is already a church goer and it did not prevent him from becoming a criminal, so can`t see it making a difference now. All I can see it doing is making him believe that cos he is going to church he will be forgiven for his sins, until next time, then he will be forgiven again, until next time, then he will etc etc etc!!!!

Not Church!! 10 years ain't bad, 5 on good behavior, three meals a day, sex anytime you want, you can get a degree, workout in a gym, surf the net, sleep whenever, play sports, do drugs, etc.

[freetoroam]

Etu Malku, on 24 November 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Not Church!! 10 years ain't bad, 5 on good behavior, three meals a day, sex anytime you want, you can get a degree, workout in a gym, surf the net, sleep whenever, play sports, do drugs, etc.

What? he will get all that at church? wow, he has got off lightly.