355 replies to this topic

[nopeda]

Slave2Fate, on 06 February 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Quote

nopeda, on 06 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:
There are significant velocities between Earth and many objects that it receives light from. Some of those objects are moving toward the Earth at significant velocities, and some away from it. Yet the light from all of those objects is found to impact this planet and the few other places humans have been able to test at the same velocity relative to this planet. That means something MUST make adjustments to the velocity of light. That much is not in question, and in fact that is the starting line. If you can't get that far, then you can't get to the starting line. If you can, then maybe you can at some point comprehend that if light moves much faster than we think outside of the adjustment area, that could explain how even light from objects moving away from us still arrives at the same velocity relative to Earth, so it is still slowed down instead of speeded up as it seems it might need to be, when it enters the adjustment area.

Okay, first of all, the speed of light being a measured constant from any give source should tell you that it is because of the very properties of light itself, not some outside agency. Second, and more in keeping with the topic, you still have not given any hypothesis or even idea of what that has to do with alien life.

If the velocity of light was completely constant relative to its emitter, then light would reach Earth at different velocities depending what the velocity of the emitter is plus or minus relative to Earth, PLUS the 186K miles per second the light leaves the emitter at. Instead only the frequency shows influence by those combined velocities, meaning something has to adjust the velocity of the light relative to Earth or the velocity would also show that same influence.

What it could have to do with alien life is that it might remove the restriction of 186K miles per second relative to this  particular planet that some people seem to feel is in place. It sure removes it for me, for example.

Edited by nopeda, 10 February 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[nopeda]

psyche101, on 06 February 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Would not stronger influences that warp light now perhaps be more likely to influence the speed of a photon? Maybe a Magnetar, or massive suns like VY Canis Major? We have star clusters, could some type of Magnetar or black hole cluster exist that creates a field such as you suggest to alter the speed of light  but if so, when the photon returns to normal space and has been warped from it's path, I would suspect that determining the direction of the photon without knowing the nature of the field would make it near impossible to determine the source to begin with. How would one test this?

Photons are light, even when they're in the radio region, microwave, UV, xray and gama ray regions. There is reason to believe gravity has an influence on light, and in fact black holes are thought to be black because of that. But if all that was having influence was different huge influences by gravity from different objects in different places then there would be a variety of different velocities at which light impacts the Earth, not all velocities being the same regardless of what areas of space were passed through. That doesn't mean it's not influenced by gravity from such objects when it get near the. But none the less if we are living in and so far still confined to an adjustment area then that would explain why all light in vacuum that humans have been able to test has been moving at the same velocity...because it's all within the adjustment area.

[nopeda]

Frank Merton, on 09 February 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

The question is not whether or not they are out there, but how far away they are.

Or how close...or how close they have been...

[nopeda]

Saru, on 02 February 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

The possibilities and consequences of such a discovery have been discussed at the World Economic Forum.

"In 10 years' time, we may have evidence not only that Earth is not unique, but also that life exists elsewhere in the universe," states the WEF Global Risks report for 2013. "The discovery of even simple life would fuel speculation about the existence of other intelligent beings and challenge many assumptions that underpin human philosophy and religion."

No one knows what impacts like that it would or would not have. One thing that could be significant would be a possible change in the value of what are considered to be precious metals however. Even before the first asteroid has been mined a company called Planetary Resources is already thinking about the possible consequences and impact it could have on world economy...

[Abramelin]

scowl, on 07 February 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

We have no evidence that life can "spread" through outer space nor any reason to believe it can. The universe is not your backyard.

We are at the point of 'spreading' through our own solar system.

[psyche101]

nopeda, on 10 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

It sounds to me like you got that last part from Star Trek. FTL is always relative to something. So far no one else I've encountered in this forum seems to appreciate the significance of that particular fact, so how could they move on to consider other details about it? Everyone always just takes it for granted that it's relative to this particular planet as if it were the foundation of the universe and not in motion, even though we're moving at a million miles per hour relative to some things.

No, not Star Trek, those ships come out of warp even in orbit of planets without any concern. Braking is as important as acceleration, so I just do now see a nice peaceful exit from sub space like we see on the TV with that sort of energy involved.

People just do not take it for granted, the big disclaimer here being that photons are massless and therefore do abide by rules of physics, and that is being taken into account. Your description seems to treat photons like they have mass. That is bound to cause some confusion at least

nopeda, on 10 February 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

We know light it slowed by different mediums, but some of us don't feel that space itself is one. I don't believe it "exists" at all. Whether it does or not it's fairly well believe that light's speed remains constant unless something alters it. That means if an object is moving toward the Earth at 2K miles per second, and it emits light moving at 186K miles per second relative TO THE EMITTER, the the light should arrive at this planet at 188K mps relative to Earth because of the combined velocities. Something that lets us know combined velocities ARE significant is the shift in frequency. The question which is the starting line is: Why not also the velocity? Few people can get to the starting line though from my experience. Most somehow can't appreciate the significance of the question, though I don't see how anyone could miss it.

Well, it is true that no evidence for an aether or the more popular term, dark matter, exists, and the very experiments that sought to prove it's existence also showed light remins a constant.

Alright, but again we only have objects with mass to demonstrate the ideals, if we say a car is ravelling downhill at 186K mps, and for instance gravity gives it a push of 2kmps so the vehicle is travelling downhill at 188k mps, (I am not saying this happens, it is just for illustration) when Gravity stops affecting it, mechanics will slow the vehicle back down to 186k mps. If light can be affected in this way, how could it be tested without littering the Universe with sensors to measure the path of a single photon. I cannot say you are "wrong" but observation and calculation do not appear to support a variable speed of light, I am not sure why you suspect this is the case, or do you feel photons may have mass after all?

nopeda, on 10 February 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Photons are light, even when they're in the radio region, microwave, UV, xray and gama ray regions. There is reason to believe gravity has an influence on light, and in fact black holes are thought to be black because of that. But if all that was having influence was different huge influences by gravity from different objects in different places then there would be a variety of different velocities at which light impacts the Earth, not all velocities being the same regardless of what areas of space were passed through. That doesn't mean it's not influenced by gravity from such objects when it get near the. But none the less if we are living in and so far still confined to an adjustment area then that would explain why all light in vacuum that humans have been able to test has been moving at the same velocity...because it's all within the adjustment area.

But using the vehicle model above, it should always go back to the driving force. This is more like Maxwells equations isn't it? Maxwell’s equations led to an apparent paradox or inconsistency in the laws of physics, because it suggested that if one could catch up to a beam of light one would see a stationary electromagnetic wave, which is an impossibility. Einstein then hypothesised that the speed of light actually plays the role of infinite speed in our universe. However, some barrier has to exist to create the fabric of space-time. Otherwise, how do you explain time dilation and length contraction when travelling near c?

[scowl]

Abramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

We are at the point of 'spreading' through our own solar system.

We are not even at the point of "spreading" to our own barren Moon! We sent a few guys there, the place was a death trap waiting to happen so we never went back.

[scowl]

Chrlzs, on 07 February 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

So in all of earth's history it appears that just ONE little 'thing' capable of reproducing itself ever sprang into being - and luckily, before it got killed, managed to reproduce itself and started to spread..

Again, this seems to point to the likely conclusion that life doesn't just spring up inevitably, and may be incredibly rare.  And as stated, astronomers and astrophysicists have no problem with incredible rarity or seemingly impossibly long odds - I can point to several things in the detectable visible universe that appear to be one-offs..

Yes, this was one of the sad things I had to accept as an adult. I grew up on science fiction where life abounded in the universe. Life was simple. It was like baking a cake: as long as the right ingredients are mixed together and cooked the right amount of time, viola, life! As I read more about the theories of how life might have developed on Earth and the other theories on why it wasn't destroyed, I kept thinking that the series of conditions we believe happened are so unlikely it's not just a miracle we're alive; it a series of miracles. And those are the most favorable theories. For all we know life may have actually resulted from something else even more complicated and improbable.

How can anyone think the same thing probably happened in nearby solar systems? Talking about the improbability of other life in the universe will not make you popular. People do not want to hear about it! They want to hear about how there are planets around other suns and some of them are the right distance from their suns to be another Earth (just like Venus).

Then the distances involved made the issue irrelevant to me. So what if there is life in a solar system ten thousand light years away? We might as well still be alone. That's when people will talk about wormholes and FTL travel and other Star Trek concepts that make a trip to a distant star seem like an airplane trip across the country.

I do like one theory about how collections of molecules could inadvertently reproduce themselves. Imagine a molecule that for some reason attracts similar molecules and gets larger and larger until it gets too big and breaks in half then the halves repeat the process. That's a crude system of reproduction.  More effective molecules would collect more stuff so you have a crude system of evolution before you even have life. There are still a few hundred steps before you have life but at least it's a plausible start.

[nopeda]

scowl, on 11 February 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

We are not even at the point of "spreading" to our own barren Moon! We sent a few guys there, the place was a death trap waiting to happen so we never went back.

We've been pretty lame in regards to the moon. I've read that it's hollow... I've also always been suspicious of it for always keeping the same side facing Earth. I wonder if there are places in the universe where beings can buy hollowed out moons and asteroids, etc.

[nopeda]

psyche101, on 11 February 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

No, not Star Trek, those ships come out of warp even in orbit of planets without any concern. Braking is as important as acceleration, so I just do now see a nice peaceful exit from sub space like we see on the TV with that sort of energy involved.
. . .
we only have objects with mass to demonstrate the ideals, if we say a car is ravelling downhill at 186K mps, and for instance gravity gives it a push of 2kmps so the vehicle is travelling downhill at 188k mps, (I am not saying this happens, it is just for illustration) when Gravity stops affecting it, mechanics will slow the vehicle back down to 186k mps. If light can be affected in this way, how could it be tested without littering the Universe with sensors to measure the path of a single photon. I cannot say you are "wrong" but observation and calculation do not appear to support a variable speed of light, I am not sure why you suspect this is the case, or do you feel photons may have mass after all?

But using the vehicle model above, it should always go back to the driving force. This is more like Maxwells equations isn't it? Maxwell’s equations led to an apparent paradox or inconsistency in the laws of physics, because it suggested that if one could catch up to a beam of light one would see a stationary electromagnetic wave, which is an impossibility. Einstein then hypothesised that the speed of light actually plays the role of infinite speed in our universe. However, some barrier has to exist to create the fabric of space-time. Otherwise, how do you explain time dilation and length contraction when travelling near c?

No ships that we know of go in or out of warp. It's a concept only and humans certainly don't have any ships capable of it if it's possible. However I will agree that slowing down is a significant aspect.

I don't believe in any fabric of space-time, or ether, or that concept by any other name. Whether or not photons have mass doesn't change the fact that if they leave an emitter at 186K mps and arrive at an object that's moving 14K mps in the direction of the emitter, the combined velocity should 200K mps. And if it's moving at 14K away from the emitter the combined velocity should be 172K mps. You seem somehow comfortable accepting the idea that the velocity of all light arriving at this planet should arrive at the same velocity relative to it, but regardless of the emitter's velocity relative to it. Most people do, yet so far no one else in this forum has been able to explain any way that could possibly be the case, or even seems to appreciate the significance of why it would have to be adjusted. It is appreciated and discussed here though:

http://www.alternati...itterEffect.htm

[Quaentum]

nopeda, on 11 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

No ships that we know of go in or out of warp. It's a concept only and humans certainly don't have any ships capable of it if it's possible. However I will agree that slowing down is a significant aspect.

I don't believe in any fabric of space-time, or ether, or that concept by any other name. Whether or not photons have mass doesn't change the fact that if they leave an emitter at 186K mps and arrive at an object that's moving 14K mps in the direction of the emitter, the combined velocity should 200K mps. And if it's moving at 14K away from the emitter the combined velocity should be 172K mps. You seem somehow comfortable accepting the idea that the velocity of all light arriving at this planet should arrive at the same velocity relative to it, but regardless of the emitter's velocity relative to it. Most people do, yet so far no one else in this forum has been able to explain any way that could possibly be the case, or even seems to appreciate the significance of why it would have to be adjusted. It is appreciated and discussed here though:

http://www.alternati...itterEffect.htm

Your lack of belief in space-time no more negates it's existence than believing the world is flat would make it flat.

From your link:

Quote

There can be little doubt that the findings of de Sitter and others confirm that the light from both stars travelled to earth at the same speed.

[psyche101]

nopeda, on 11 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

No ships that we know of go in or out of warp. It's a concept only and humans certainly don't have any ships capable of it if it's possible. However I will agree that slowing down is a significant aspect.

I agree completely.

nopeda, on 11 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

I don't believe in any fabric of space-time, or ether, or that concept by any other name. Whether or not photons have mass doesn't change the fact that if they leave an emitter at 186K mps and arrive at an object that's moving 14K mps in the direction of the emitter, the combined velocity should 200K mps. And if it's moving at 14K away from the emitter the combined velocity should be 172K mps. You seem somehow comfortable accepting the idea that the velocity of all light arriving at this planet should arrive at the same velocity relative to it, but regardless of the emitter's velocity relative to it. Most people do, yet so far no one else in this forum has been able to explain any way that could possibly be the case, or even seems to appreciate the significance of why it would have to be adjusted. It is appreciated and discussed here though:

http://www.alternati...itterEffect.htm

Maybe the Voyager probes might give some indication when they enter Interstellar space and can offer some new readings? Perhaps not so much an aether, but as you suggested a magnetic sheath such as the Heliopause?
Perhaps that might control the overall velocity of the solar system itself keeping matter restricted to a balance for want of a better word? I am comfortable with the idea of light arriving at earth all at the same speed, because it seems this is what I would consider something of a stabilised region, for instance, if we have 2 people on the ground throwing a ball to each other, and 2 people on a plane throwing a ball to each other, the ball is relative to earth in both cases. The ball will not have the planes velocity added to it as one throws it to another, it will be the same velocity as the ball on the ground (of course considering perfect conditions, that is the people throw a ball of the same weight with exactly the same force) perhaps the solar system is a way of keeping these restrictions in place? If so, all light in the solar system would be at a speed relative to the system itself, but that could possibly be based on the heliopause itself, offering as you have suggested differing speeds under differing conditions relative to each other. One system might have a different speed of light to us, making physics somewhat variable across the Universe, there is a team here in Australia thinking along those lines, they have hypothesised that constants change across the Universe, they speak of "Alpha", as opposed to labelling a resistance:

Quote

Sections of sky

At the centre of the new study is the fine structure constant, also known as alpha. This number determines the strength of interactions between light and matter.

A decade ago, Webb used observations from the Keck telescope in Hawaii to analyse the light from distant galaxies called quasars. The data suggested that the value of alpha was very slightly smaller when the quasar light was emitted 12 billion years ago than it appears in laboratories on Earth today.

Now Webb's colleague Julian King, also of the University of New South Wales, has analysed data from the Very Large Telescope (VLT) in Chile, which looks at a different region of the sky. The VLT data suggests that the value of alpha elsewhere in the universe is very slightly bigger than on Earth.

The difference in both cases is around a millionth of the value alpha has in our region of space, and suggests that alpha varies in space rather than time. "I'd quietly hoped we'd simply find the same thing that Keck found," King says. "This was a real shock."

Bar magnet

Moreover, the team's analysis of around 300 measurements of alpha in light coming from various points in the sky suggests the variation is not random but structured, like a bar magnet. The universe seems to have a large alpha on one side and a smaller alpha on the other.

This "dipole" alignment nearly matches that of a stream of galaxiesmysteriously moving towards the edge of the universe. It does not, however, line up with another unexplained dipole, dubbed the axis of evil, in the afterglow of the big bang.

Earth sits somewhere in the middle of the extremes for alpha. If correct, the result would explain why alpha seems to have the finely tuned value that allows chemistry – and thus life – to occur. Grow alpha by 4 per cent, for instance, and the stars would be unable to produce carbon, making our biochemistry impossible.

LINK

Edited by psyche101, 11 February 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[venom012]

I think they are more afraid of us than we are afraid of them. Mabey we are the Klingons of the galaxy.

Edited by venom012, 12 February 2013 - 12:22 AM.

[ionizerusa]

I have shown my close up alien photo to some Mufon members as well as to Stanton Friedman, Bud Hopkins, Dr. John Mack, Betty Hill & many others.
Go Google Images & type "Coast to Coast devoe visitor" & look for the reddish alien looking at you. I was informed that people are just getting use to the crafts & seeing the aliens as well would be too difficult to handle for most people.

[Theater of Dreams]

Here's how I see it:

It definitely would shake up major religions and conspiracy theorists.
Scientists would try to find some way to study or come in contact with them.
And many would reevaluate the means and worths of their existences.