13 replies to this topic

[Jeff Albertson]

I was curious of people oppion and and any information on the Artellia commanly refered to as the Papuan dragon. Is the artellia a Varnus salvadorii as the litature would suggest and all that is in question is the maximum size. Or is the litteature wrong and it might be a still unknow cryptid most likely a Varnus ssp. still waiting to be discovered?

[DieChecker]

Maybe you could link to stories of the artellia that do not conform to the accepted definition of a large arborial monitor lizard living in the mangroves of New Guinea? I have not found any sites with a quick google check that indicate anyone thinks these are anything then what science says they are.

I'd guess that unusually large specimens would probably exist, as with any population.

[Jeff Albertson]

Sorry I don't have any links but I do have the names of published papers on the subject, and refernces in books. With links they are only two good ones on the cryptid Artellia that desribed the cryptid if your are intrested.

Not all but some of the paper include -

Bayless, M.K. 1998. The artrellia: Dragons of the trees. Reptiles 6 (6):32-47

The papua Monitor Lizard of new Guinea (Varnus saladorii Peter & Dori 1878): Notes on its mystique Vara News 4 (2/3):6

The Reptiles of Papua New Guines British Herpetological Society Bulletin 37:15-31

2004. The local names of Pacific monitor lizards (Sauria:Vananidae) of Oceania & Indo-Malaysia, excluding Austraia. Micronesica 37 (1) 49-54

Mark O'Shea did a show on this T.V. show O'Shea big adventures season 2 episode 5 The tree crocodile.

Mark O'Shea also refences the name Artrellia as for the Varanus salvadorii http://www.markoshea...gift_mlopng.php  

You can find Varanoid Lizards of the world in google books under Varanus salvadorii they refernce to it being the Artrellia

[Overdueleaf]

i cannot find any writings that suggest that these lizards are something more than they are reported by science to be... now native lore is another matter...i did find where it is reported that the natives believe that the lizards climb trees (which they do) walk upright and supposedly breath fire... question is which do we choose to believe... do we belive the natives... or do we choose to believe scientists who have studied these creatures at great lengths and held numerous of them captive for study.... hmmmmm. tough decision.

[Jeff Albertson]

The Varanus goudii can stand straight up on it hind legs I have not seen any reports of it walking on two legs but have heard reports of it standing on two legs this is also seen by the V. goudii. "And as he gazed, motion less with fear, the lizard reared up onto its hind legs like a veritable dragon, standing more than 10ft high. In regards to breathing fire, "Jaws open wide, realing a brimming armoury of dagger-like teeth-and a long-yellow tongue, which flicked rapidly like living fire. This two dessribtion bring dout on to the Varanus salvadorii the desribtion of it being V. salvadorii came from this "Lieutenant - Colonel John Blashford -Snell only after bribing local hunters to capture an artrellia and bring it to him." The bribing to bring back a species also bring big douts of it being the V. salvadorii not to say it not a subspecies, it  seems to be a Varanus but looking at the evidence it brings dout.

http://karlshuker.bl...label/artrellia

[DieChecker]

Jeff Albertson, on 10 December 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

"And as he gazed, motion less with fear, the lizard reared up onto its hind legs like a veritable dragon, standing more than 10ft high.

Yeah. I saw where it can stand up on its back legs to look around, but nothing about it walking. I do doubt that any of these guys get big enought o be 10 feet tall. Supposedly 60% of their length is tail, so a 10 foot tall monitor would be 22 to 25 feet long. That is as big as a crocodile. The descriptions I read were that this monitor gets around 6 to 8 feet long, so it could rear up 3 to 4 feet tall.

A 24 foot monitor would weigh, what, close to 800 kg, or about 1800 pounds? I don't see a 1 ton lizard dropping out of trees on people.

The Megalania of Australia was supposedly that size.

Edited by DieChecker, 10 December 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[Jeff Albertson]

You do bring up some intresting stuff to keep in mind, Varanus Komodoensis as juveniles are aboreal, this behavior keeps them away from the larger adults. If we compare this to anadoltale sighting reports we see that large artellia, are reported on the ground. Captive observations of Varnus salvadorii seem to spend time on the ground as well been aboreal. Little is known about there range and Natural history of this species ostelogy and morphology does suggest a aboreal life. This can be conpared with Orangutans Dr. John Mackinnon has made observation of large male Orangatans become ground dwelling conpared to aboreal do to large size.

[DieChecker]

Jeff Albertson, on 10 December 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

You do bring up some intresting stuff to keep in mind, Varanus Komodoensis as juveniles are aboreal, this behavior keeps them away from the larger adults. If we compare this to anadoltale sighting reports we see that large artellia, are reported on the ground. Captive observations of Varnus salvadorii seem to spend time on the ground as well been aboreal. Little is known about there range and Natural history of this species ostelogy and morphology does suggest a aboreal life. This can be conpared with Orangutans Dr. John Mackinnon has made observation of large male Orangatans become ground dwelling conpared to aboreal do to large size.

Interesting....

But what is the largest confirmed specimen captured? From what I read the longer ones captured have been 8 feet long. It is a long way from 8 feet to 20 feet.

[Jeff Albertson]

Varanus salvadorii virtually nothing is known of its ecology and the species remains one of the world's greatest zoological egimas. The tail is extremly long up to 2.7 times SVL snount to vent length. V. salvadorii has been said to exceed eventually 4.5 m in TL total length. (Schultze-Westrum 1972; Cann 1974).This has never been substantiated (Schmicking and Horn 1997). The largest reliable measurment of a specimen from the Museum of Konig,Bonn. is 2.65 m (Bohme and Ziegler 1997) I have 10 good morphometrics if need. There is no detailed Census based on field invistigation. Little is known on their habitat. Nothing is known precisely about their diet. Nearly all behavioral observations reports are anecdotal.Nothing is known about reproduction of this species in the wild, all information on breeding comes from captive breed.I am not sure if the artellia could be the V. salvadorii a subspecies or different Varanus ssp. When dealing with anadoltale reports it hard to determine using the Null Hypothesis (HO) if the littature is correct or if it is wrong regarding the identification of the artellia. I can see how it is biological possible but still need more information to best determine if V. salvadorii is the best candate using the HO for the artellia as the littature suggest.

Cann j. 1974 Collecting i Irian java (West New Guinea) during 1972 Bull. Herp. R. Zool. Soc N. S. W. 1(3):4-14

Schicking T., and H.-G Horn. 1997. Beobactungen bei der Pfledge und Nachtzucht des Papuawarans, Varanus salvadorii (Peter and Doria 1878). Herpetofauna 19 (106):14-23 - (I love to have this paper I still have not located it yet and have google translate it because it might have something to say against V.salvadorii being Artellia)

Bohme, W., and T. Ziegler. 1997 Grobwarane im Museum Koenig, mit Bemerkungen zu Afrikas groBer Echer. Tier. Mus 5(3):65-74

[chopmo]

Jeff Albertson, on 09 December 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Sorry I don't have any links but I do have the names of published papers on the subject, and refernces in books. With links they are only two good ones on the cryptid Artellia that desribed the cryptid if your are intrested.

Not all but some of the paper include -

Bayless, M.K. 1998. The artrellia: Dragons of the trees. Reptiles 6 (6):32-47

The papua Monitor Lizard of new Guinea (Varnus saladorii Peter & Dori 1878): Notes on its mystique Vara News 4 (2/3):6

The Reptiles of Papua New Guines British Herpetological Society Bulletin 37:15-31

2004. The local names of Pacific monitor lizards (Sauria:Vananidae) of Oceania & Indo-Malaysia, excluding Austraia. Micronesica 37 (1) 49-54

Mark O'Shea did a show on this T.V. show O'Shea big adventures season 2 episode 5 The tree crocodile.

Mark O'Shea also refences the name Artrellia as for the Varanus salvadorii http://www.markoshea...gift_mlopng.php  

You can find Varanoid Lizards of the world in google books under Varanus salvadorii they refernce to it being the Artrellia

I've personally seen several Goannas in far north queensland, australia that were a easy 2m in length making a paperbark tree look like a apple tree when it comes to width of the stump (seen it long enough for it to realise i was there and hissed luckily this was rather close to the entrance of my creek walking track. Wouldn't shock me that they travelled to PNG, many other animals have done so. By performing this transition to a completely different ecosystem may have allowed the goanna to get the bulk staunchiness of the komodo whilst keeping the speed to live in the mangrove/swamp areas, in itself would cause a different pattern or colouration of the animal.
There is also many reasons as to why it hasn't been found... The biggest is western presence in png and culture, one isn't commonly shared between the two and we are still finding tribes of PEOPLE that were never acknowledged to the known world, much like peru and so and so forth.

Open and shut as far as it goes for me. It is only a sub-species not a new path all together.

[Thegreatsilence]

IMO the dagger-like teeth mentioned in Shuker's nature makes me think Artrellia might be at least a very close relative to salvadorii within varanid. The teeth of the latter are longer and straighter than those of other goannas. Megalania's teeth were more like those of a conventional one, i.e. short large and curved. Maybe there were two different giant goannas living back then, one in rainforests and the other in wooded grasslands. Southern cassowary are found in Queensland as well as PNG, the same could happen for Artrellia.

[RingFenceTheCity]

Jeff Albertson, on 10 December 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

The Varanus goudii can stand straight up on it hind legs I have not seen any reports of it walking on two legs but have heard reports of it standing on two legs this is also seen by the V. goudii. "And as he gazed, motion less with fear, the lizard reared up onto its hind legs like a veritable dragon, standing more than 10ft high. In regards to breathing fire, "Jaws open wide, realing a brimming armoury of dagger-like teeth-and a long-yellow tongue, which flicked rapidly like living fire. This two dessribtion bring dout on to the Varanus salvadorii the desribtion of it being V. salvadorii came from this "Lieutenant - Colonel John Blashford -Snell only after bribing local hunters to capture an artrellia and bring it to him." The bribing to bring back a species also bring big douts of it being the V. salvadorii not to say it not a subspecies, it  seems to be a Varanus but looking at the evidence it brings dout.

http://karlshuker.bl...label/artrellia

Hi there Jeff. I got an idea that the 10ft lizard also flies by use of its rib-extensions. P.S. Hawaii has a similar myth about giant lizards which live at the bottom of ponds.

[RingFenceTheCity]

Here's a good link http://www.vthawaii....loa.html

Quote

According to legend. This peninsula was originally a "Mo'o" or giant lizard. Standing upright ready to kill any intruder.

[The New Richard Nixon]

SunnyBlues, on 10 December 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Hi there Jeff. I got an idea that the 10ft lizard also flies by use of its rib-extensions. P.S. Hawaii has a similar myth about giant lizards which live at the bottom of ponds.

Lizards need heat for energy