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The Phoenix Lights revisited

ufo alien phoenix

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#421    Slave2Fate

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:49 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 13 October 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

If the thing was really as large and silent as they say, without jets, rockets, rotors or propellers, then we are by definition dealing with some more advanced, exotic or unknown technology.

If this thing was really flying around, where did it go after people stopped seeing it?  Where did it land or did it land at all?

Given perceptual errors abound in every human on the planet, as exemplified by psyche's earlier post with this image:

Posted Image

How then can you be so sure that there even was a craft (singular)?

The skeptics aren't the ones dismissing evidence or possibilities here. In fact, the skeptics are the ones looking at everything in an attempt to offer possible answers as opposed to a few videos and testimony while ignoring everything else.

Edited by Slave2Fate, 13 October 2012 - 08:51 PM.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#422    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:57 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 13 October 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

Given perceptual errors abound in every human on the planet, as exemplified by psyche's earlier post with this image:

How then can you be so sure that there even was a craft (singular)?

The skeptics aren't the ones dismissing evidence or possibilities here. In fact, the skeptics are the ones looking at everything in an attempt to offer possible answers as opposed to a few videos and testimony while ignoring everything else.



Yeah, well that's not what the witnesses reported seeing, not at all.

As for the "skeptics", I think they are absolutely selective about the evidence that they use, including on this thread.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 13 October 2012 - 08:58 PM.


#423    Bionic Bigfoot

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:00 PM

Another thing that is never addressed properly is the lack of sound.  If this was a plane or planes, they would have been heard.  All of the witnesses said there was no sound associated with the lights they saw.


#424    Slave2Fate

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 13 October 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Yeah, well that's not what the witnesses reported seeing, not at all.

As for the "skeptics", I think they are absolutely selective about the evidence that they use, including on this thread.

I think everyone knows that image wasn't intended to be a representation of what the witnesses saw. It was intended to highlight perceptual errors that can confuse our brains, specifically that humans have an inherent flaw that can and does 'connect the dots' between point sources of lights. Hence the triangle shaped 'craft' that some people (not all, not by a long shot) reported.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#425    Slave2Fate

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostBionic Bigfoot, on 13 October 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Another thing that is never addressed properly is the lack of sound.  If this was a plane or planes, they would have been heard.  All of the witnesses said there was no sound associated with the lights they saw.

I think it's possible that planes flying at low throttle moving slowly in formation and at high enough altitude would make little enough noise that it could be drowned out by the ambient sounds of a large city like Phoenix. Not sure if that's the case but it seems like a definite possibility.

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#426    booNyzarC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:25 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 13 October 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

I think it's possible that planes flying at low throttle moving slowly in formation and at high enough altitude would make little enough noise that it could be drowned out by the ambient sounds of a large city like Phoenix. Not sure if that's the case but it seems like a definite possibility.

Agreed, and this position is fully supported by the testimony of Rich Contry who was the first to witness the event, and at a higher elevation (he was driving though the mountains at the time) than the other witnesses.  He actually did hear the engine noise, but it was extremely faint and he only heard it after the planes had overflown him.


#427    booNyzarC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:50 PM

Speaking of that horrid documentary by Larry Lowe, I had begun a critique of it when I first watched it but never got around to finishing it.  I took the time today to review what I had put together previously and add to it.  This is related to the first part linked by The MacGuffin today.  My commentary is in blue text.

Rough Transcript:

Listen to the ridiculous way that the narrator over emphasizes what Larry Lowe has done by 'tracking down' Mike Krzyston... LOL

Narrator:
But UFO investigator Larry Lowe has tracked down a witness with hard evidence.
A video tape of a mysterious light show...  captured that night.

Mike Krzyston:
See this light flickering over ?? mountain over here.  What have we got here?
The formation of an arc.

Narrator:
Mike Krzyston lives atop a mountain, overlooking the Phoenix valley.  In the 30 years he's been here, he's often seen lights in the distance. From the city. From the airport. And a nearby military base (LUKE).
But on the night of March 13, 1997... the lights looked different to him.  So he video taped them.

Mike Krzyston:
Take a look at this! (from his original taping)

My Commentary:
Why is this ridiculous?  Anyone who has ever looked into this case knows who Mike Krzyston is and knows that his video is the most famous one from the event.  For Lowe to represent himself as some kind of incredible investigator who tracked down Mr. K would be like me making a documentary about the JFK assassination and having the narrator say "But JFK assassination investigator booNyzarC has tracked town a witness with hard evidence.  A motion picture of the horrifying event...  captured that day.
Abraham Zapruder:
See, he was riding in the car over there with his pretty wife...  then..."

See what I mean?  Anyone who knows about the JFK assassination knows about the Zapruder film.  If I were to represent myself as an investigator who tracked him down, it would be disingenuous at best, and outright fraud at worst.  Ridiculous.  But it gets better.




Larry Lowe:
What was unusual about that particular night?  Why did these stand out the way they did that made you get the camera out?

Mike Krzyston:
Well, they were farther to the east than I'd ever seen them before.  I'd never seen them in this area before.

My Commentary:
Note here the first thing that Mike mentions about these being different.  They were farther to the east than he'd seen them before.  Okay...  This is relevant how?


Narrator:
To understand the lights significance requires a look at the geography.
Krzyston's house sits atop a ridge line in north Phoenix.
To the south of them, 25 miles away is the Estrella mountains.
On the other side of the ridge, to the southwest, is the Barry Goldwater military range.
There, Air Force jets practice maneuvers day and night.
So lights to the south west wouldn't normally have caught Krzyston's attention.
But around 10 o'clock, these (showing clip of array) lights did.

Mike Krzyston:
So I went to get the camera and as I was starting to video tape it, it disappeared, and a light, almost, at the same time it disappeared another light appeared to the right of it and lower.

My Commentary:
I agree with most of this, but his footage doesn't support what he's saying here.  The second light in the right hand portion of the array to appear was not lower than the first one which quickly disappeared.  It was higher.  Have I watched his footage more times than he has?


Narrator:
Could they have been related to something going on at the Barry Goldwater Military Range?
The range sits roughly 75 miles southwest of Phoenix.

My commentary:
Starting around this time we get to see flares being launched from jets at relatively close range.  Of course, all of the samples they show us are NOT LUU2B illumination flares and are NOT launched in the same way that LUU2B flares would be launched.  Instead, the flares they show footage of are "rippled" off in quick succession by the dozens.  This is known as sleight of hand and is intended to convey to the viewer that these are the types of flares being suggested were used that night.  These are nothing like the LUU2B flares that were actually used that night.  This is deceptive, pure and simple.  And skeptics are accused of spinning smokescreens?  Hilarious.



Narrator continues:
According to the United States Air Force, they were holding a training exercise that night as they often did.  They started around 10 o'clock, the same time Krzyston saw the lights.  A10 aircraft were dropping flares to illuminate the mock battleground below.
Could these flares have been the lights Krzyston saw and video taped?

Larry Lowe:
You've seen, uh, as I understand it, flares come out as delivered by the A10s.

MK:
Yes.

Larry Lowe:
And what's characteristic about that process?

MK:
Well the flares are generally in a cluster and they come out in bunches and are sort of a rag tag type of formation

My Commentary:
Note here the second thing that Mike mentions about these being different.  Their arrangement.  Well yes, you'll get a variety of configurations over time with flare drops like these.  Sometimes you'll even have two A-10s flying next to each other dropping flares at the same time, resulting in a staggered appearance.  Sometimes it will be a straight horizontal line, and sometimes curved.


Larry Lowe:
Kind of like a cluster.

MK:
Yeah, like a cluster type of things and they're dropped differently.
And this was a very precision display.  And they also appeared to be quite a lot dimmer, maybe because they were much farther away.  And their color might not...  is not quite to that orange brightness that these particular lights appeared to be...

My Commentary:
Note here the third thing that Mike mentions about these being different.  The flares he has seen in the past aren't quite as orange as these ones appeared.  Okay, fair enough.  Different atmospheric conditions could easily account for that, as has been discussed at length by Dr. Bruce Maccabee.


Narrator:
Descending slowly on parachutes, flares normally appear to drop in altitude and drift in the wind.
But Krzyston noticed something different.

MK:
It's just that the way they kept their formation.  They almost formed a perfect arc.
They were much more patterned... they held their position... and as you look at the footage, uh, it doesn't appear that any of them are drifting out of position.

My Commentary:
Note here the fourth thing that Mike mentions about these being different.  They formed an 'almost' perfect arc, and appeared to him as though they maintained their formation.  Well, as he himself notes by his description, they weren't a perfect arc, only almost one.  Also, they didn't actually maintain their relative positions as precisely as is suggested.  They acted exactly as flares suspended by parachutes would act, all drifting down in the same general direction, but with slight variations at times, independently.



Narrator:
So what did he observe that night?

Narrator:
Many have suggested that the lights could simply have been the A10s flying in formation as they returned to Davis Montham AFB in Tucson.

My Commentary:
This is complete BS.  As far as I'm aware, nobody has made such a ridiculous assertion that the K video was of the A10s flying in formation.  This is a strawman, pure and simple.  Who is spinning smokescreens here again?  The skeptics?  Riiiiiiigggghhhhhttttt......

End rough transcript.


As you can hopefully see from just this tiny portion of the documentary, Larry Lowe does not present an unbiased accounting of what happened with his documentary.  He uses deceptive techniques and completely omits any kind of information that is non-mysterious.  When he does try to represent an opposing view, it is a completely manufactured and inaccurate version of it (commonly known as a strawman argument...)

I know for a fact that he contacted Dr. Bruce Maccabee when he was developing this documentary project, which should tell us that he is at least aware of the extensive analysis that was performed by the good doctor.  Yet he doesn't even mention it.  Neither does he mention the Cognitech analysis, or any other valid analyses of the 10 PM footage.  These are not the hallmarks of unbiased review and investigation.

These are the hallmarks of someone who's very intention is to deceive rather than inform.  He deserves to be in the UFO Hall of Shame.


#428    booNyzarC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:25 PM

View PostBionic Bigfoot, on 13 October 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

What a sarcastic and condescending way to infer that she's crazy.  All those nice words of praise for Dr. Kitei, intelligent, genuine, sincere, BUT she's still a looney, right? Nice. :no:

I wasn't attempting to be sarcastic or condescending in any way, and I certainly didn't say that she was a crazy looney.  If I left that impression, it was purely accidental.  As I said, I think she's very intelligent and well intentioned.  At the same time I know for a fact that she has filmed and photographed flares.

That being said, she has also seen and photographed something that can't possibly be flares because they were in the foreground, well below even the cityscape.  I don't know what those were, but they weren't flares dropped over the BGR.  Could it have been neighborhood kids playing with sparklers or something like that?  I don't know, but it wasn't flares over the BGR.  They also weren't up in the sky like the famous Phoenix Lights.



View PostBionic Bigfoot, on 13 October 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

And with this statement you're basically saying that it was a mass hallucination or a perception problem that is responsible for the 1000's of witness reports.  This is a common theory used by the skeptics, too bad it doesn't make a lot of sense.  Again, if the numbers of witnesses was much smaller, then yes maybe.  It's a nonsensical argument considering the number of witnesses in the case.

No, I'm not saying that at all, though I don't rule it out as a possibility.  All I'm saying is that thousands of witnesses were unable to identify what they were seeing.  That isn't a hallucination at all.  They saw something.  They just didn't know what it was.  How does this disagree with the position presented by UFOlogy?  Even in the famed "I Know What I Saw" movie, they are still only saying that that they didn't recognize or identify what they saw.



View PostBionic Bigfoot, on 13 October 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

If you re-watch the video I posted at the beginning of the topic, you'll see that there were 1000's of witnesses.  Dr. Kitei mentions that she herself called back over 700 of the witnesses.  She and others returned all the phone calls they received over a 3 month period.

700 witnesses I accept.  Thousands of witnesses I accept.  But 10,000?  This is an inflated and unsubstantiated figure in my opinion.  I'm willing to accept such a figure if it can be adequately substantiated, but so far I haven't seen that done.  As such, it reminds me of a big fish story.  It also reminds me of the Ancient Aliens series talking about the massive stones at Puma Punku weighing in at 800 tons when in reality the heaviest stone there is about 130 tons.  Still big, but not 800 tons big.  That is the kind of exaggeration that UFOlogy relies on, and the kind we see in many cases including the Phoenix Lights.

But it's the skeptics who are deceptive, right?  Really?


#429    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:31 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 13 October 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Speaking of that horrid documentary by Larry Lowe, I had begun a critique of it when I first watched it but never got around to finishing it.  I took the time today to review what I had put together previously and add to it.  This is related to the first part linked by The MacGuffin today.  My commentary is in blue text.

Rough Transcript:

Listen to the ridiculous way that the narrator over emphasizes what Larry Lowe has done by 'tracking down' Mike Krzyston...


I got to the word "ridiculous" and stopped reading.  So typical of Boon.


#430    booNyzarC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:36 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 13 October 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

I got to the word "ridiculous" and stopped reading.  So typical of Boon.

Yes, and this is how the mighty MacGuffin defeats his opponents with sound reasoning and logic.  Good show McG.  Keep up the excellent work.  :tu:

:rolleyes:


#431    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:40 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 13 October 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Yes, and this is how the mighty MacGuffin defeats his opponents with sound reasoning and logic.  Good show McG.  Keep up the excellent work.  :tu:


I will.  When you say "ridiculous" you make it clear that your only intention is just to ridicule someone.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 13 October 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#432    booNyzarC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:46 PM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 13 October 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

I will.  When you say "ridiculous" you make it clear that your only intention is just to ridicule someone.

Well that's compelling.  :no:   Would you care to offer the readers any other insights into your perception of my character and supposed methodologies?


#433    booNyzarC

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

View PostThe Sky Scanner, on 13 October 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

The last 8 posts have nothing to do with the topic - how about less baiting before it goes further, and get back on topic. :tu:

I've tried.  Many many times I've tried.  I am still trying.


#434    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

I'm going to try the polite route one last time.

If someone gives a summary/view of a transcript from an external link, and you disagree with that interpretation, then debate the transcript, not the character of the person who gave it. Similarly, comments relating to a person state of mind, whether they're under the influence etc simply because they're post differs from yours are of no use whatsoever.

Basically, debate the topic, not the person.

Mac G - replying to a post that wasn't directed at you, simply so you can say you didn't bother reading it as it's "typical of Boon" is baiting someone, knock it off please.

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#435    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:14 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 13 October 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

I've tried.  Many many times I've tried.  I am still trying.

I know, I am following it all. All i'd say is your posts that deal directly with the subject stand on their own merit - i'd be tempted to stick with that, people have no other option to debate that if you give them nothing else to go on :)

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