The Goddess Myth - Historically speaking?

[Imaginary Friend]

The Scholars and The Goddess



Historically speaking, the "ancient" rituals of the Goddess movement are almost certainly bunk

WICCA, sometimes known as the Goddess movement, Goddess spirituality, or the Craft, appears to be the fastest-growing religion in America. Thirty years ago only a handful of Wiccans existed. One scholar has estimated that there are now more than 200,000 adherents of Wicca and related "neopagan" faiths in the United States, the country where neopaganism, like many formal religions, is most flourishing. Wiccans -- who may also call themselves Witches (the capital W is meant to distance them from the word's negative connotations, because Wiccans neither worship Satan nor practice the sort of malicious magic traditionally associated with witches) or just plain pagans (often with a capital P) -- tend to be white, middle-class, highly educated, and politically involved in liberal and environmental causes. About a third of them are men. Wiccan services have been held on at least fifteen U.S. military bases and ships.

Many come to Wicca after reading The Spiral Dance: A Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess (1979), a best-selling introduction to Wiccan teachings and rituals written by Starhawk (née Miriam Simos), a Witch (the term she prefers) from California. Starhawk offers a vivid summary of the history of the faith, explaining that witchcraft is "perhaps the oldest religion extant in the West" and that it began "more than thirty-five thousand years ago," during the last Ice Age. The religion's earliest adherents worshipped two deities, one of each sex: "the Mother Goddess, the birthgiver, who brings into existence all life," and the "Horned God," a male hunter who died and was resurrected each year. Male shamans "dressed in skins and horns in identification with the God and the herds," but priestesses "presided naked, embodying the fertility of the Goddess." All over prehistoric Europe people made images of the Goddess, sometimes showing her giving birth to the "Divine Child -- her consort, son, and seed." They knew her as a "triple Goddess" -- practitioners today usually refer to her as maiden, mother, crone -- but fundamentally they saw her as one deity. Each year these prehistoric worshippers celebrated the seasonal cycles, which led to the "eight feasts of the Wheel": the solstices, the equinoxes, and four festivals -- Imbolc (February 2, now coinciding with the Christian feast of Candlemas), Beltane (May Day), Lammas or Lughnasad (in early August), and Samhain (our Halloween).

This nature-attuned, woman-respecting, peaceful, and egalitarian culture prevailed in what is now Western Europe for thousands of years, Starhawk wrote, until Indo-European invaders swept across the region, introducing warrior gods, weapons designed for killing human beings, and patriarchal civilization. Then came Christianity, which eventually insinuated itself among Europe's ruling elite. Still, the "Old Religion" lived, often in the guise of Christian practices. (Cont'd @ Link)

[mako]

I won't say they are bunk, but there is no real evidence that what Wiccan practice today is exactly the same as what was historically practiced. After all Christianity made a concerted effort (and almost totally successful effort at that) to eradicate Wicca, so what was left was mainly word of mouth, and we all know how unreliable word of mouth is...

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Eh...no more bunk than the Abrahimic religions

[Grandpa Greenman]

Wicca as far as I am concerned came from Gardner and he got it from here, there, everywhere. The two deities are really aspects of the single divine being. All God are facets of the single being, so in truth Wicca is monotheistic.

The truth be known there isn’t much left of the old Pagan religions of middle Europe and the British Isles. Most of the evidence comes from physical evidence like pots, pictures, cravings, standing stones and the like; you can’t say exactly what happen. The christians did a good job eradicating any writings or clergy of the old ways.

Is Neo-Paganism bunk because the histories not there? I would say from my experience it is not. To understand it you must experience the rituals and walk the Path. It is not a revealed religion in a musty book it is a religion of the Earth and its lessens come from natural world.

This something as a christian Charlotte Allen will never understand.

edit

Just a thought, Friend, when you post these criticisms of religion they should go in skepticism forum.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Darkwind

[Mr Supertypo]

I dont belive so much this "goddesses myth" IMO it's just a modern interpretation other word fiction. After all Wicca is a modern tradition, not ancient.

[Cadetak]

How many of those 200,000 are just kids who think its cool to be pagan?

[mako]

How many of those 200,000 are just kids who think its cool to be pagan?

And how many of those less-than-two billion are just kids that were brain-washed by their parents and clergy?

How many of those 200,000 are just kids that are rebelling against Abraham's three bloody kids?

[Bella-Angelique]

There is history of the pagan religions of Europe if anyone cares to research and study it.

Wicca is a new religion not an old one. If someone wants to reconnect with their roots and that is the primary goal, that is not the way to go.

Go to google and type in the name of any nation and the words "ancient religion". It is much easier to scan through it all quickly today, more so than back in the sixties and seventies.

For some nations like the British isles there are the Norse gods brought by the Vikings as well as the religion of the Druids from the Celts.

I personally think that over glamourizing the past is a big mistake for any culture, because the past for every culture and people was quite cruel and barbaric without exception. I think it may even be a component piece of the regressive pychosis of fundementalism, that somewhere in a mythical past things were better than they are today.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Bella-Angelique

[Essan]

Starhawk offers a vivid summary of the history of the faith, explaining that witchcraft is "perhaps the oldest religion extant in the West" and that it began "more than thirty-five thousand years ago," during the last Ice Age.

Actually, she offers an imaginative fantasy

We have no idea what, if any, religious practices may have been followed by our ancestors back in the Paleolithic.

[Mr Supertypo]

There is history of the pagan religions of Europe if anyone cares to research and study it.

Wicca is a new religion not an old one. If someone wants to reconnect with their roots and that is the primary goal, that is not the way to go.

Go to google and type in the name of any nation and the words "ancient religion". It is much easier to scan through it all quickly today, more so than back in the sixties and seventies.

For some nations like the British isles there are the Norse gods brought by the Vikings as well as the religion of the Druids from the Kelts.

I personally think that over glamourizing the past is a big mistake for any culture, because the past for every culture and people was quite cruel and barbaric without exception. I think it may even be a component piece of the regressive pychosis of fundementalism, that somewhere in a mythical past things were better than they are today.

I dont like so much the word PAGAN (because it's a abused word) I prefer the term ethnical religion. Europe's ancient RELIGIONS/tradition (the religion are connected to the tradition and viceversa) are many, from the celt's to the Ethruschians, the roman...to the Greecks and so on. And belive it or not, many traditions still live through the Popular culture (folklore) and or being preserved it some way in the moder religion.

But I like to say religion change is not something new, and it happens more than one time during the past. The last time was with christianity...

Wicca is a modern reinterpretation of local folklore connected with some god and goddesses cult, mixed with fiction and some feminism.

Wicca shall not confused with the reconstrutionist groups who work hard to recreate ancient traditions like the norse Asatru. Such reconstrutionist groups are showing up everywhere from Skalndinavia, Island, Italy, Greece even Turkey and israel.

[Bella-Angelique]

I love history and recreating the past for study, but not for adoption as part of modern life.

All roads to the past are covered in blood.

[hetrodoxly]

Was gardner telling the truth in his claim of being invited to join a coven in 1939 wicca coming from this coven, doesn't wicca come from the Anglo Saxon wig? it seems likely, crowley was asked to join the same coven. to think the old religion just disappeared with Christianity would be wrong, Christianity came late to the British Isles, and never felt quiet right for Anglo Saxons, Often on a converted kings death his people would revert back to the old religion with a new king, go to any Saxon church and you'll find images of pagan gods, the churches are built on pagan sites, Festivals in britain don't involve carrying an effigy of the virgin Mary or some other saint through the streets, villages the length and breth of the British Isles celebrate the old religion, some quiet strange, we have 2-3 pagan celabration a year local to me, we also have the 3 forked pole, on open hill moorland there's what looks like a large dead tree, it didn't grow there, a tree with 3 large branches on is erected on this spot, they last about 100 years and they put a new one up, it was first erected before Christianity, why would christians keep erecting it, if you ask a local what's it for they'll say for the witches to dance around, the old religion is still there it's all around us.

[Mr Supertypo]

Was gardner telling the truth in his claim of being invited to join a coven in 1939 wicca coming from this coven, doesn't wicca come from the Anglo Saxon wig? it seems likely, crowley was asked to join the same coven. to think the old religion just disappeared with Christianity would be wrong, Christianity came late to the British Isles, and never felt quiet right for Anglo Saxons, Often on a converted kings death his people would revert back to the old religion with a new king, go to any Saxon church and you'll find images of pagan gods, the churches are built on pagan sites, Festivals in britain don't involve carrying an effigy of the virgin Mary or some other saint through the streets, villages the length and breth of the British Isles celebrate the old religion, some quiet strange, we have 2-3 pagan celabration a year local to me, we also have the 3 forked pole, on open hill moorland there's what looks like a large dead tree, it didn't grow there, a tree with 3 large branches on is erected on this spot, they last about 100 years and they put a new one up, it was first erected before Christianity, why would christians keep erecting it, if you ask a local what's it for they'll say for the witches to dance around, the old religion is still there it's all around us.

the witches are lot more ancient than any "pagan" religon, actually witches had nothing to do with pagans. Witches was persecuted everywhere in the pagan Rome (the striga) in the pagan greece (the strix) in the north, in the east, even in the hindu india and the tribal africa. I cant see what connection there are between the witch and the pagan.

Who are the witches? the last remants of a matriarcal religion ?(IMO the word religion is wrong, rather spirituality) lonely shamans? loonaticks? I dont know.

About wicca....well gardner along with Crowley created it for gather people to the OTO, but who knows...

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

Wiccans crack me up. I mean they are right up there with Jehovah's Witlesses and

Mor(m)ons for sheer humor factor. There's nothing ancient about the versions of "paganism" floating around, like has been said before, they are all relatively modern. It just cracks me up with some addle-headed-feminist-sexually-confused-dyed-black-hair-and-pentagrams everywhere wiccan tells me about the ancient powers they control.

I'm all for people worshipping whatever they want. Just don't try to pass it off as ancient when it isn't.

And let's get biblical in bringing back paganism: Wicker Man, dropping human sacrifices in the bog, ritual sex, the whole nine yards.

"What ever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might!"

[Bella-Angelique]

And let's get biblical in bringing back paganism: Wicker Man, dropping human sacrifices in the bog, ritual sex, the whole nine yards.

"What ever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might!"

I live by a swamp if anyone is intereted in that. It is sort of boggish lite with gators.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

I live by a swamp if anyone is intereted in that. It is sort of boggish lite with gators.

Sounds good. We can stuff the Wicker Man with child molesters, illegal immigrants and terrorists, fire it up and .... Well, I had better behave, already had one comment edited today.

[hetrodoxly]

the witches are lot more ancient than any "pagan" religon, actually witches had nothing to do with pagans. Witches was persecuted everywhere in the pagan Rome (the striga) in the pagan greece (the strix) in the north, in the east, even in the hindu india and the tribal africa. I cant see what connection there are between the witch and the pagan.

Who are the witches? the last remants of a matriarcal religion ?(IMO the word religion is wrong, rather spirituality) lonely shamans? loonaticks? I dont know.

About wicca....well gardner along with Crowley created it for gather people to the OTO, but who knows...

Saxons called celtic shaman witches.

[hetrodoxly]

Wiccans crack me up. I mean they are right up there with Jehovah's Witlesses and

Mor(m)ons for sheer humor factor. There's nothing ancient about the versions of "paganism" floating around, like has been said before, they are all relatively modern. It just cracks me up with some addle-headed-feminist-sexually-confused-dyed-black-hair-and-pentagrams everywhere wiccan tells me about the ancient powers they control.

I'm all for people worshipping whatever they want. Just don't try to pass it off as ancient when it isn't.

And let's get biblical in bringing back paganism: Wicker Man, dropping human sacrifices in the bog, ritual sex, the whole nine yards.

"What ever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might!"

I agree, celts were head hunters, and the wicker-man doesn't sound much fun, but you can't condemn pagans without mentioning the persecution of witches, the inquisition, etc. i'd imagine a heck of a lot more people have died at the hands of christians.

I've no interest in modern wicca, but hey what ever floats your boat.

PS, Whats wrong with ritual sex

Edited August 16, 2006 by hetrodoxly

[Andiepanda]

Hello, I'm new here and I was reading this thread and I'd just like to clear a few things up for you. While its true that alot (and i do mean alot) of the neo pagans and Wiccans are just teenagers who just want to be different and rebel against their parents and have lots of blood and wear black and pentagrams, not all of us do this. I've been a Wiccan since I was twelve because my mother is a Wiccan and she introduced me to the religion when I expressed intrest in it. I am now in my 20's and I admit that the children who pretend and "play witchcraft" not only anger me but offend me as well. I hardly ever wear black and I like the Olde Ways much more than the new ones. For me its all about nature and balance, it doesn't matter what you call your deity because its really everything in the universe to me. So, please don't lump all Wiccans together as emo angst ridden children, just I try everyday to not lump all Christians together as egotistical, kill-everyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-us people!

Hope I haven't offended anyone!

[Imaginary Friend]

To the contrary. That was well said and very fair.

[Heru]

Wiccans are a joke. If youve read up on any ancient religion. Read up on a wiccan version of it its way off. Im big on Egyptian mythology cause of my roots. And I accidently picked up a wiccan book and read a few at the book store. Lets just say I think they got there info from to many internet sources.

And the church did no different to what the empire use to do to christians who wouldnt swear to the emporer. It had nothing to do with god it was all politics. If people turned from the church they were turning from rome (a splintered and dead rome). The Catholic church was the soul of rome.

[Imaginary Friend]

[Little_Nephilm]

Ah, but the catholic church wasnt in it's full swing until after Emperor Constantine had merged the christian beleifs and holidays to coincide with the pagan celebrations. Constantine might not have been a good emperor, but he was a great business man. He was a pagan till just before he died, then he got baptized into Christianity.

My mom wasnt pagan. She in fact was mormon, I grew up in Happy Valley Utah. SURROUNDED by them.

But the whole thing of mormons and their patriarchy really got on me. When I asked about 'Heavenly Mother' all I got was "Oh no, we dont talk about HER. She's too sacred." What? She cant take being mentioned? She has to be hidden behind her male counterpart so that he takes the brunt of having HIS name taken in vain? God dosent really do much when someone uses "God" as an expelative. But for the Goddess?

Dude! You ever p***ed off a woman? Men forget but have a hard time forgiving. Women...well...they forgive, but dont ever forget. And depending on the woman they bring it up on a latter date to bite you in the patootie. Ok...so they dont TRUELY forgive.

So.

I started looking into Diannic Wicca...eh. It was WAY to feminist for me. I like a good ballance of male and female. I mean, there are just some things that people feel more comfortable relating to with either the male, or female aspect.

You really cant talk to a man about...say...menstrual problems. It's embarrassing and they cant really relate cause they've never had the misfortune of the experience. But talk to a woman, someone that's been there...yeah, they'd be able to give you really good advice.

Just like a man cant talk to a woman about erectile disfunction. It is also embarrassing and well, they dont know, they dont have that equipment. But talk to another (mature) guy who's had the unfortunate experience of not getting it up and they can probably help you out.

But I digress, back to the original subject. I agree with Darkwind on one thing. God/goddess each are facets of one, all encompasing diety. But we as humans have to section it off so that we can relate to Diety easier. So that we can acctually grasp the concept of Diety.

Do you understand what I'm trying to get at?

It's really hard trying to explain the concept of an omni-presence that is all encompasing, all loving, all hating. It is everything, and nothing. It is the absolute ballance of the universe. And those which are labled as 'witches' and that practice 'witchcraft' their 'spells' are merely ritualistic prayers to diety, usually they're focused on one aspect/facet to help in their workings. I have seen many prayers work into miracles. One such thing happened to my daughter. She was only about 7 months old, her upper right, and lower left portions of her lungs were collapsed and she had the beginings of pneumonia (xrays confermed teh collapse). A disease that usually takes weeks or months with proper treatment to help the person get over. IF they get over it.

My grandmother had a couple of the elders from the local church come in (with my concent of course) and bless my child with a prayer of healing. They annointed her, blessed her and went on their merry way. The next day they xrayed her chest again and she was fully healed, no collapse was evident and the fluid that had been building up in her lungs was gone. All the hospital had done when I had brought her in was hook her up to an IV and give her antibiotics. They had originally estimated her to be in there a week with consant monitoring and a steady diet of antibiotics and of course breast milk (and I made sure I had a GOOD diet at that time).

When the doctor came in to check on her that morning and had looked at the new xrays I explained to him what had been done the previous night. He said "ah, that explains it." and let me know that he'd had other children in that were worse off then my daughter had been and they left in a matter of days because of a blessing from the local clergy, and I use the word "Clergy" in the loosest sense meaning for the abundant "elders" in the area.

So I do know that Diety does exist, I do know that when called upon he/she/it can make what human's would deem "Miracles" happen. It all depends on your faith, and how you call for that help. But my main point is that god is goddess is god is diety. It's all the same thing really. We just have to lable Diety so that we can understand 'it' better.

I hope I made sense....And I hope you like my personal account of my own experience with Diety.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Wiccans are a joke. If youve read up on any ancient religion. Read up on a wiccan version of it its way off. Im big on Egyptian mythology cause of my roots. And I accidently picked up a wiccan book and read a few at the book store. Lets just say I think they got there info from to many internet sources.

The books you'll see on Wicca/Paganism in an Angus and Robertson's Bookstore are all catered for that "teen rebel" demographic that others have been trying to point out (andiepanda most recently). THey aren't representative of what Wicca really is. With book title's like "Practical Magic: spells for the everyday witch", or "21 ways to bewitch a boyfriend", they are quite frankly a joke that only those angsty teens seriously believe.

Wicca is something else entirely. I know a little of that, probably more than most people in the world, though not nearly as much as some others here on these boards, but it is enough to take off the blinders and look beyond that uber-emo teen for the true face of Wicca.

Regards, PA

*P.S - no offense to any teen-witches that happen to be reading this and own "21 ways to bewitch a boyfriend". If you think it'll help you get your man, then don't let these words stop you trying......*

Edited September 7, 2006 by Paranoid Android

[zandore]

WHAT.....PA did you see anything wrong with this comment?

Wiccans are a joke.