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Hinduism and Aryan


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#16    Peter Cox

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 19 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Okay trash this thread.   Obviously we are not going to fun with it.

I dont think the intention here was to trash the thread, but rahter shed more light on the source material you supplied that would seem to have some incorrect information and be outdated.

I have toi agree with that as wiki is not a relible sourse of info (i mean I can edit it to say what I wanted it to say).

However this is a great tread and thanks for posting and i look forward to following it,


#17    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 02:33 PM

View Postaraxia, on 21 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Are you saying that the Aryans are the Israelites? The migrating Chosen ones? Looks like they left Egypt (Babylon) for India to breathe... From the desert to The place of abundant waters..
No, this is a picture of the Hyperboreans migrating from Siberia to colonise Europe. And I put the start point for this hypothetical migration under number 5 because that is on modern Omsk, which some believe to be built on Midgard, or it's central point. All nonsense :)


#18    me-wonders

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostPeter Cox, on 21 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

I dont think the intention here was to trash the thread, but rahter shed more light on the source material you supplied that would seem to have some incorrect information and be outdated.

I have toi agree with that as wiki is not a relible sourse of info (i mean I can edit it to say what I wanted it to say).

However this is a great tread and thanks for posting and i look forward to following it,

View PostPeter Cox, on 21 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

I dont think the intention here was to trash the thread, but rahter shed more light on the source material you supplied that would seem to have some incorrect information and be outdated.

I have toi agree with that as wiki is not a relible sourse of info (i mean I can edit it to say what I wanted it to say).

However this is a great tread and thanks for posting and i look forward to following it,

About out dated information.  I intentionally collect very old books, because I do not trust people to be 100% honest, so when possible, I like to read history when it was being made.  If a subject is really interesting, I will read many things about the subject.   I didn't select the list of google leads, but just took the first half page, to demonstrate many things have been written and the ideas of Ayrans migrating to India connect with other ideas about them.

The professor I am listen to, was sure Ayrans migrated to India and he proceeds to discuss all the changes related to their arrival.   The tapes of his lectures were made in 2003 and the professors selected by The Teaching Company are the absolute top professors.   If someone has information to give, well that is what I am looking for.  On the other hand, if all someone just wants to do is to attack what is being said, I am not interested.  

If a thread is good or not, depends on everyone posting in them, not only their knowledge, but how well they are relating to one another.  Occasionally someone shows up who knows nothing about the subject, and this person's only intention is to attack what is being said.  There are thousands of things we can never be sure about, and it is much more fun to be okay with that..  The title "ancient mysteries and alternative histories" suggest that is what we are to be doing here, wondering and speculating for the fun of it.    

This thread actually begins in the thread about the ice age civilization.  That thread mentions the Veda and their holy book, as does the Jewish torah, carries stories that may be telling of aliens interfering with life on earth.  

I think it is silly to get over hung up on a word or a name, because words have different meanings and names change a lot.  In general several migrations came from the north, and the culture of all these people is basically different from the area we call the cradle of civilization.  I think this is what really matters, the difference in the cultures that is caused by different climates and therefore different survival skills.  I think we should give more consideration to the shift from Mother Earth to a sky God. I feel confident the Hebrews are a mix of these people, and that like the Veda, their holy book tells of aliens. I want to discuss these things with open minded people who enjoy speculation.  

Oh, I wanted to mention the first link about Ayrans says this was a male invasion, and they were intent on breeding with the females.  Because it is recorded, we know Genghis Khan, took great pleasure in having sex with as many females as possible, and a genetic study indicates that he fathered more children than anyone else we know of.   These migrations were not whole families, but could have been predominately males, from a hunting culture, migrating into farming cultures which a basically different.

Edited by me-wonders, 21 November 2012 - 05:02 PM.


#19    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:12 PM

Quote

The professor I am listen to, was sure Ayrans migrated to India and he proceeds to discuss all the changes related to their arrival. The tapes of his lectures were made in 2003 and the professors selected by The Teaching Company are the absolute top professors.

The professor you're listening to can be as sure as he wants to be but the genetic studies, both mitochondrial and Y Chromosomal DNA, do not support the claim of an Aryan Invasion. It's one thing to speculate based on the facts, it's a whole different thing to speculate while disregarding them. And where genetics are concerned, his 2003 lectures are definitely dated.

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#20    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

Contrary to your professor's 2003 lectures we can see genetics evidence, starting in 2001, that invalidates the Aryan Invasion Theory and continues through to other studies done in 2009 and 2011.

http://onlinelibrary...1.6510043.x/pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm....nihms103422.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm....74/pdf/main.pdf

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 21 November 2012 - 06:22 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#21    DieChecker

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:25 PM

Quote

Genetic studies
Further information: Indo-Aryan migration
Most genetic studies indicate that there are clear genetic differences between Indian castes and tribal populations. They support the notion that there was a massive influx of Indo-European migrants into the Indian subcontinent around 3,500 years before present.[5]
A recent study published in 2009 has provided substantial evidence that the North Indian gene pool also includes numerous Central Asian Y-chromosomal lineages, which include both R1 and R2: "The results revealed that a substantial part of today's North Indian paternal gene pool was contributed by Central Asian lineages who are Indo-European speakers, suggesting that extant Indian caste groups are primarily the descendants of Indo-European migrants."[6]
In another 2009 study, it was found that the modern Indian population is a result of admixture between Indo-European-speaking groups (ANI) and Dravidian-speaking groups (ASI). According to Reich et al. (2009): "It is tempting to assume that the population ancestral to ANI and CEU spoke 'Proto-Indo-European', which has been reconstructed as ancestral to both Sanskrit and European languages, although we cannot be certain without a date for ANI–ASI mixture."[7] Recent research indicates a massive admixture event between ANI-ASI populations 3500 to 1200 years ago.[8]
These conclusions are contested by a study headed by geneticists S. Sharma and E. Rai and colleagues from the group of R. N. K. Bamezai, National Centre of Applied Human Genetics of the Jawaharlal Nehru University. Claiming that the results showed "no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals," the study proposed "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins" as well as the origin of R1a1* in the Indian subcontinent.[9]
A recent study on ancestral Indian populations said that there is a genetic relationship among all Indians, northern and southern, calling any Aryan migration into question.[10]
Wiki- Indigenous Aryan Theory

According to the various sources in that wiki article, there has been doubt as recently as 2009, as to whether there has been large group movements into the area. Both from Asia and from the Indo-Iranians.

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#22    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 21 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Wiki- Indigenous Aryan Theory

According to the various sources in that wiki article, there has been doubt as recently as 2009, as to whether there has been large group movements into the area. Both from Asia and from the Indo-Iranians.

Quite often this gets ignored by either those who wish to portray Indians as more than they actually are, or those who wish to portray Indians as somehow being less than they are without the "Aryan Invasion" influence. Both sides of which do a great disservice to the indigenous peoples involved IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#23    DieChecker

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:49 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 November 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Contrary to your professor's 2003 lectures we can see genetics evidence, starting in 2001, that invalidates the Aryan Invasion Theory and continues through to other studies done in 2009 and 2011.
http://onlinelibrary...1.6510043.x/pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm....nihms103422.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm....74/pdf/main.pdf
cormac
Why does the second link repeatedly reference that there has been massive genetic influxes into the North of India from 7000 to 3000 BP, and specifies that there are big differences between the Castes, specifically the Brahmans versus the lower castes? That would seem to me to actually indicate that there Had been invasions from the north of Indo-Iranians during the time in question.

Quote

In the last 3000–10 000 years, Northern-Western India has experienced an enormous amount of gene flow from different parts of the world, with the majority of this gene flow being maledriven (Bamshad et al. 2001).

Quote

The high level of gene flow that Northern India has experienced during the last 3000–8000 years (Majumder 1998) may have left a strong signature in the present day North Indian gene pool. The patterns of haplogroup/haplotype distribution observed in our studied populations may be reflective of the heavy contribution from Central Asian (or West Eurasian) and Middle Eastern lineages

Quote

A recent systematic comparison of Y lineages indicated that the Indian lower castes showed more similarity with tribal groups than with the upper caste populations, suggesting a tribal origin for the Indian lower castes (Thanseem et al. 2006).

From the 3rd link:

Quote

Importantly, the Pakistani (Indus Valley) populations differ substantially from most of the Indian populations and show comparably low genetic differentiation (within the FST range of 0.008–0.020) from European, Near Eastern, Caucasian, and Indian populations (Figure 1 and Figures S1 and S11). In agreement with previous Y-chromosome studies,41,42 the Brahmin and Kshatriya from Uttar Pradesh stand out by being closer to Pakistani (FST ¼ 0.006 on average) and West Eurasian populations (FST ¼ 0.030) than to other Indian populations (average FSTs 0.017 and 0.046, respectively) from the same geographic area (Figures S1 and S11). Similar to the patterns revealed by

Wouldn't this possibly be read to mean that the Brahman caste was influenced by a massive genetic infusion so it more closely matched western populations? This could be indicative of a invasion. Perhaps from the Muslims of 1500 years ago, or perhaps from an invasion from before that. If from the Muslims, you'd expect the Brahman group to more closely match Pakistani groups, which they do to an extent, but I would think it would be hard to proove that the Muslims only mixed with the Brahmans.

Edited by DieChecker, 21 November 2012 - 08:50 PM.

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#24    DieChecker

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Quite often this gets ignored by either those who wish to portray Indians as more than they actually are, or those who wish to portray Indians as somehow being less than they are without the "Aryan Invasion" influence. Both sides of which do a great disservice to the indigenous peoples involved IMO.

cormac
That is kind of what I suspected. That studies can be made by Denigners just as well as by impartial researchers. But, without a education in how to really read Haplogroups and DNA analysis'es, how can anyone know what is real and what has been spin-doctored?

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#25    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 21 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

That is kind of what I suspected. That studies can be made by Denigners just as well as by impartial researchers. But, without a education in how to really read Haplogroups and DNA analysis'es, how can anyone know what is real and what has been spin-doctored?

I started a post and must have hit a wrong button as it disappeared. In any case DieChecker, look at the list of haplogroups involved. With the exception of E1b1b1 which is African in origin, the rest don't originate in Central Asia as is alleged by the Aryan Invasion theorists. They either originate in the Middle East or, in the tentative case of R2, originate in Pakistan. Neither of which supports the Aryan Invasion Theory as it's often presented. The early Indians were already a combination of various haplogroups well before the AIT was ever thought of. And while it's possible there may be a Brahman/Muslim genetic connection, this greatly post-dates the AIT.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#26    kmt_sesh

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:18 PM

I think it's the word "invasion" that sets people on edge. It's an old theory but not one holding much weight any longer. I am not well versed on the genetics, but I don't think there's any doubt of gradual migrations of other peoples into India. The linguistic evidence alone is compelling—unless we take the nationalistic Hindu track that Indo-Europeans originated in India, which I don't think any respected scholar would take seriously.

The problem is people who are overly sensitive about such things, as though ancient migration patterns might somehow "diminish" their ethnicities. If that's the case, then we're all diminished for the simple reason that widespread migrations were common the world over in very ancient times. This is the way of things. There's no logical reason for people to take offense at this or, in the other extreme, to try to use it to bolster what they perceive to be some sort of ethnic "purity" or superiority. In other words, we don't need to saddle ancient man with our own senseless racial baggage.

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#27    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:38 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 21 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

I think it's the word "invasion" that sets people on edge. It's an old theory but not one holding much weight any longer. I am not well versed on the genetics, but I don't think there's any doubt of gradual migrations of other peoples into India. The linguistic evidence alone is compelling—unless we take the nationalistic Hindu track that Indo-Europeans originated in India, which I don't think any respected scholar would take seriously.

The problem is people who are overly sensitive about such things, as though ancient migration patterns might somehow "diminish" their ethnicities. If that's the case, then we're all diminished for the simple reason that widespread migrations were common the world over in very ancient times. This is the way of things. There's no logical reason for people to take offense at this or, in the other extreme, to try to use it to bolster what they perceive to be some sort of ethnic "purity" or superiority. In other words, we don't need to saddle ancient man with our own senseless racial baggage.

I think that's a big part of the problem.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#28    Harte

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 21 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

But, without a education in how to really read Haplogroups and DNA analysis'es, how can anyone know what is real and what has been spin-doctored?

It's been my experience that the easiest way is to simply ask Cormac! :w00t:

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#29    araxia

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

View PostPeter Cox, on 21 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

I dont think the intention here was to trash the thread, but rahter shed more light on the source material you supplied that would seem to have some incorrect information and be outdated.

I have toi agree with that as wiki is not a relible sourse of info (i mean I can edit it to say what I wanted it to say).

However this is a great tread and thanks for posting and i look forward to following it,

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View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Quite often this gets ignored by either those who wish to portray Indians as more than they actually are, or those who wish to portray Indians as somehow being less than they are without the "Aryan Invasion" influence. Both sides of which do a great disservice to the indigenous peoples involved IMO.

cormac


Well the indian gurus are NOTHING WITHOUT THEIR MONEY and westernized beliefs that man is god... aryans must have taught them how to make themselves gods, and how to swindle people... the white man has all the money.... right?!


#30    me-wonders

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:14 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 November 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

The professor you're listening to can be as sure as he wants to be but the genetic studies, both mitochondrial and Y Chromosomal DNA, do not support the claim of an Aryan Invasion. It's one thing to speculate based on the facts, it's a whole different thing to speculate while disregarding them. And where genetics are concerned, his 2003 lectures are definitely dated.

cormac

My goodness, let us stop the whole discussion, and ignore all the things we could talk about, and focus exclusively on the DNA issue.  If we are not absolutely and undoubtedly correct about the DNA issue the earth might spin off its axis, and  then if the professor is correct about major cultural change happening in India, or not, will be a mite matter, compare to the extinction of life as we know it.    Actually, this is Thanksgiving and I need to rush off and get busy with the day, so I hope you don't mind, I do not do the necessary investigation in the DNA issue right now.  I am looking for fun, and not a fight over an issue that should not be so serious.in a forum like this.





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