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'Peaceful' Minoans Surprisingly Warlike


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#46    cormac mac airt

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

I found a site from someone who believes Atlantis to have been a reality, but then exactly as Plato described it.

It's a question-and-answer website, and quite enlightening, despite the fact I had some questions with his geological 'proof':

In addition to Plato's Timaeus (24e) locating Atlantis directly "in front of" (pro), or "facing," the Pillars of Heracles, Plato's Critias (114b) describes Atlas as having a twin named Gadirus, who was allotted the portion of the island "closest to" (epi to) the Pillars. He says the ancient city of Gades (on the Atlantic shore of southern Spain, now called Cadiz) was named after that individual. The name, in itself, implies proximity. Plato's description categorically eliminates any location other than the North Atlantic Ocean reasonably close to Spain. Yet, in spite of such precise details, many moderns seek to justify other far-flung locations.

http://www.atlantisq....com/Plato.html

His "proof" would tend to run contrary to the findings from the Deep Sea Drilling Project (DSDP) and Integrated Ocean Drilling Program, both of which show no evidence for a sizeable landmass having catastrophically submerged at any point within human history at or near the Azores Plateau. The site is just another attempt for someone to try to rationalize Atlantis into existance IMO.

The website writer also has a rather broad interpretation of what constitutes "reasonably close to Spain" as well, considering that the Azores Plateau is about 1000 miles west of the Pillars of Hercules/Straits of Gibraltar. On top of which the earliest evidence for boats of any kind don't appear until around 6000 BC which is 3600 years after Atlantis supposedly existed. He seems to be taking great liberties with the facts.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 29 January 2013 - 06:59 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#47    docyabut2

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:52 AM

Keftiu,( Crete) an island nation named for holding one of the four pillars that supported the Egyptian sky.According to the Egypt legend, Keftiu was an advanced civilization, and was the gateway to and ruler of all of the lands to the far west of Egypt, Keftiu traded in ivory, copper, and cloth. Keftiu supported hosts of ships and controlled commerce far beyond the Egyptians domain.The Egyptians believed that the sky was supported by four pillars that were at the end of the world.

Perhaps the Egyptian priest was refering to the pillars that held the egyptian sky in the inlands of sea,  however Solon in his translation of  the tale in greek form used the term the pillars of Herucles.

Edited by docyabut2, 30 January 2013 - 01:19 AM.


#48    docyabut2

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

the reason I changed from Tartesso to Crete, Thera it is only known disaster to where the kings of Athens of the Atlantis war fits in. The story was more of a unknown war and a great deed with a great empire before a disaster occurred. The minoans were a peaceful people, but there could have been a war with them before this great disaster happen. Then there is that island in the Aegean where they found all those houres of buried weapons.




#49    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:26 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 January 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

On top of which the earliest evidence for boats of any kind don't appear until around 6000 BC which is 3600 years after Atlantis supposedly existed. He seems to be taking great liberties with the facts.

cormac

A quibble: the presence of humans in Australia >40 KY ago argues that boats of some kind existed that long ago.


#50    docyabut2

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:26 AM

Atlantis didnt exist  10,000 years ago only it its foundation.
Plato-
no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations;

I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labours of many generations of kings through long ages.

Edited by docyabut2, 02 February 2013 - 01:26 AM.


#51    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:50 AM

View PostPersonFromPorlock, on 02 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

A quibble: the presence of humans in Australia >40 KY ago argues that boats of some kind existed that long ago.

Two things work against your quibble above. One, there's nothing in the North Atlantic that's comparable to the existance of the Sunda Shelf. Much of which was above sea level at various points in the Pleistocene and early Holocene. Two, boats of "some" kind don't automatically validate Plato's mention of "triremes" which are specific naval vessels of large size and well stocked. The earliest boats found so far, really canoes, would have been pretty much useless on the open ocean as vessels of war.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#52    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:55 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 February 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Atlantis didnt exist  10,000 years ago only it its foundation.
Plato-
no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations;

I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labours of many generations of kings through long ages.

That's not what Plato wrote in Critias, to whit:

Quote

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe.

Which means it wasn't since the foundation but 9000 years since the war.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 02 February 2013 - 03:06 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#53    docyabut2

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:38 AM

Well comic some say - Critias stated in Timaeus the foundation, of 10,000 years, however in Critias the next day accidently repeated the war as 10,000 years before ,because he goes on stating this war was of the kings of Athens of the 15 hundreds bc..

Critias
And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon


#54    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:52 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 February 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Well comic some say - Critias stated in Timaeus the foundation, of 10,000 years, however in Critias the next day accidently repeated the war as 10,000 years before ,because he goes on stating this war was of the kings of Athens of the 15 hundreds bc..

Critias
And this is reason why the names of the ancients have been preserved to us and not their actions. This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon

That's just it, the names changed. Not the time of the war. So no, he doesn't state the war was in the 1500's BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#55    docyabut2

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:09 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 February 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

That's just it, the names changed. Not the time of the war. So no, he doesn't state the war was in the 1500's BC.

cormac

Comic theres no doubt about it those were the Athens kings of the 1500  hundreds bc that fought in the war


#56    kmt_sesh

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:22 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 02 February 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

Comic theres no doubt about it those were the Athens kings of the 1500  hundreds bc that fought in the war

There was no such thing as Athens in 1500 BCE. At most there was a Mycenaean fort on what would become the Acropolis.

The actual centers of power in mainland Greece at this time were in the Peloponnese, such as at Mycenae, which is how the entire Bronze Age culture got its name.

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#57    docyabut2

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:22 PM

'kmt_sesh' qoute-
There was no such thing as Athens in 1500 BCE. At most there was a Mycenaean fort on what would become the Acropolis.


Plato-
  This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in like manner. Moreover, since military pursuits were then common to men and women, the men of those days in accordance with the custom of the time set up a figure and image of the goddess in full armour, to be a testimony that all animals which associate together, male as well as female, may, if they please, practise in common the virtue which belongs to them without distinction of sex.
Now the country was inhabited in those days by various classes of citizens;-there were artisans, and there were husbandmen, and there was also a warrior class originally set apart by divine men. The latter dwelt by themselves.

http://www.classical.../18_critias.htm


As the tale said there was no Acropolis as yet, but a class of warriors and how did Athens get its name?


#58    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:41 PM

I dont think that Minoans were war like although we dont know their population. But maybe they were like Byzant.
What interesting me is were they fishermen based society?

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#59    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:20 PM

cormac
what do you think what could (if) caused Nile river turn into blood red? Drought? Possibly killing fish and their blood painted Nile. Algae? What algae? Maybe salt? I read once how salt made lake in France red because of iron particles in ground.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#60    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:46 PM

View Postthe L, on 03 February 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

cormac
what do you think what could (if) caused Nile river turn into blood red? Drought? Possibly killing fish and their blood painted Nile. Algae? What algae? Maybe salt? I read once how salt made lake in France red because of iron particles in ground.

Red silt deposits or a 'red tide' would turn the water blood red.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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