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The children who bore witness to Roswell


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#61    Paxus

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:23 AM

Kids?? Since when was it 'kids' who first discovered 'wreckage'?
I always thought it was the owner of the land (possibly with his dog or something, although, that might be my memory messing with me because I remember someone making a flip comment that even the farm dog knew it wasn't a weather balloon..)

BTW - Hey regulars! *waves*

Also, excuse me if this has been explained already, i only read about half the posts of this thread/ :blush:


#62    nephilim12

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:52 AM

we don't know the truth behind Roswell and some speculate whether it's aliens, whereas some believe it's a weather baloon ( which inspite of it's light weight, being helium filled, could cause so much ground damage as evident from pictures).
We don't even know whether the pictures flooding the net are from Roswell photographed at the actual alleged crash site.
One thing I can say, every reported sighting around the world, all throughout history just simply cannot be a hoax.
In 1949 the US Air Force labeled the Gorman Dogfight as being caused by a lighted weather balloon. Some weather balloon, must be the only weather balloon with artificial intelligence to take on a WW II veteran fighter pilot and disappear from radar never to be traced.

We have seen 'co-incidental' recordings since the days of cave paintings, right up through the middle ages till modern times. I cite here the 16th Century painting of a UFO emitting a ray of light and touching the head of the Virgin Mary. This painting lies in the Sistine Chapel in the Vatican.
Yes, hoaxes are there, then there are the natural weather phenomena mistaken for craft or UFO's, man-made machines, etc etc.
But I do also acknowledge that the UFO phenomena is real, there are genuine cases and so far there has been no outright display of aggression.
Let everyone have his own opinion. There was after all a time not too long ago when it was thought of as being very cool to puncture a hole in people who had high fever.


#63    nephilim12

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:06 AM

and hey, the end results from products of software engineering are visible enough on the laptop screen, but the technology that makes it possible is totally incomprehensible for most of us.
Just 30 years ago, an iPod was thought impossible due to space limitations, but today simple things like memory cards with high storage capacity are taken for granted.
We already have our answers, but the truth is available only for a handful. And they deem it unnecessary for us to know.
That's good enough for me. Leave it to the experts.


#64    Sweetpumper

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:55 PM

View Postnephilim12, on 24 May 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

One thing I can say, every reported sighting around the world, all throughout history just simply cannot be a hoax.

They're not. That's a fact.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated." - Hunt for the Skinwalker

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#65    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:30 PM

I did find this article in which William "Mack" Brazel mentioned that he he took young Dee Proctor with him to the crash site on June 14, 1947, but not Vernon.  Dee's parents, Floyd and Loretta Proctor, did not go out to the crash site either, which was 20 miles away from their house, although Brazel did show them some of the material he found:

Floyd Proctor looked at it, took it up to his mouth and bit into the thing like anyone might have done with any ordinary pencil.  It was hard, the material didn’t budge.  He got out a knife, tried to cut it.  It wouldn’t cut.  He couldn’t find teeth marks or scrape marks on the thing, but did find designs on the metal.  “Different from anything he had ever seen,” he said.  “Like the kind of stuff you would find on firecracker wrappers”, and, “figures all done up in pastels; not like American writing”, he said.

Loretta, Floyd’s wife, indulged me and looked at the object too.  She thought it looked tan, maybe even dark tan and not silver.  She compared it with plastic in weight, “light, like balsa wood,” she said.  That gave Loretta the idea to get a match.  She lit the match and tried to burn it, to set it on fire, to maybe light it like a firecracker and make it explode.  The fourth of July was coming up she said.  “Maybe we can get a bang out of this thing,” I think that that is what she was thinking.
“It isn’t wood, it isn’t balsa wood, it isn’t plastic,” she went on.  “It does not burn.”  “This piece is like a pencil, a dowel stick, fancy writing, no sharp corners, no grain; it won’t blow up and it won’t even burn; you can’t eat it or even cut it with a knife,” she said.  “What’s the point?” she said.  “I have chores to do,” she said; and I said, Goodbye.

http://qalabist.com/?m=194707

Mack Brazel died in 1963 and his wife Margaret in 1975, and so far as I know no one in the UFO field ever interviewed them directly, nor did they ever say anything more publicly about these events after 1947.

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#66    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 05:50 PM

On the other hand, the Roswell Daily Record story of July 9, 1947 states that Mack Brazel and his son Vernon first came upon the debris field, and that later he took his children Vernon and Betty there to gather up more wreckage and put it in his truck.  No mention of Dee Proctor at all in this version, or his parents.

http://www.angelfire...y_record02.html

When Dr Lincoln LaPaz arrived in Roswell after being recruited by the Army to study the speed, direction and trajectory of the object, he ran into a "sea of reluctant witnesses", although he was able to speak Spanish as well and therefore gain the trust of some of the area's Hispanic witnesses who would otherwise have been reluctant to get involved or speak with the authorities at all.

http://www.angelfire...ily_record.html

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 24 May 2012 - 06:48 PM.

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#67    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:14 PM

Bessie Brazel, who was 14 in 1947, recalled years later that she went with her mother and brother Vernon to help Mack collect some of the debris and put it in sacks.

Bill Brazel, Mack's oldest son, was not living with them at the Foster Ranch at that time, but returned home to Roswell when he learned that his father was in trouble.  When he arrived at the Foster Ranch on July 10, 1947, no one was there, so he set about trying to find his parents, brother and sister.  Mack Brazel was in fact held at the guest house on the base for several days and was quite unhappy and resentful about his treatment.

Were Mrs. Brazel, Vernon and Bessie also being held in the guest house at this time?

Major Edwin Easley, the base provost marshal, later confirmed that Mack Brazel had been kept in custody, although he was always reluctant to talk about these events because he had been sworn to secrecy by President Truman.

Bill Brazel kept some of the Roswell material as well, but the military learned of this in 1948 and confiscated it from him.

http://kevinrandle.b...swell-case.html

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 24 May 2012 - 06:23 PM.

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#68    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:30 PM

William "Dee" Proctor died in 2006 and never spoke publicly about the Roswell incident at all.  He was a reclusive person, although his mother Loretta reported that many years later he went with her to the old crash site and said that Mack Brazel had also found "something else", but he was reluctant to discuss it.

http://www.angelfire...y_record02.html

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 24 May 2012 - 06:33 PM.

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#69    Babe Ruth

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:27 PM

What I find interesting about the Roswell incident is that for the first several days the Army admitted that it was some sort of space ship/flying saucer/whatever, but then days later amended the story so that it became a weather balloon.

That sort of behavior reminds me of the statements of Coroner Miller at Shanksville.  First he tells the truth, and then days later the story is amended.


#70    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 07:34 PM

Bessie Brazel's 1994 testimony is different from many other witnesses in that she recalls the military coming to the ranch to interview her parents and collect debris, but not that they ever spoke to her or Vernon.  Nor did she mention that her father or anyone else had been taken into custody and held at the base, although other witnsesses remembered that, including the provost marshal.

http://ufologie.patr...essiebrazel.htm

Bill Brazel did remember his father being taken into custody, though, and no one being home when he arrived at the Foster Ranch.

He described the same type of material as most of the witnesses, saying "you could wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed its original shape... quite pliable, but you couldn't crease or bend it like ordinary metal. Almost like a plastic, but definitely metallic. Dad once said that the Army had once told him it was not anything made by us."

His father told him that he had been required to take an oath of secrecy not to discuss what he had found, and that as an "old-time cowboy" and man of his word, he never did.  Bill Brazel also kept a box full of the Roswell material but later some military guys showed up at the ranch and took it.

http://www.munseys.c...swell.htm#1_2_4

Vernon of course was never interviewed by anyone since he comitted suicide at a young age, but there are at least witnesses who place him there at the ranch, collecting wreckage with his parents and sister.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 24 May 2012 - 07:48 PM.

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#71    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:13 PM

By the way, there is yet another Brazel son who was older, and like Bill, Jr. served in the military during World War II, but I cannot find any record of his name or that he was ever interviewed in connection with the Roswell case.  Evidently like Bill he was living somewhere else in 1947.

I take that back, the other son was named Paul Brazel, who was working in Texas at that time, and when interviewed said that he knew nothing about the Rosewell events.  He died in 1997.

Bessie Brazel said in a 1999 interview that: "'We were told not to talk about this at all.'", but she testified to her father's veracity most emphatically, saying, "'If Dad said something happened, it happened! No ifs, ands, or buts about it.'"

http://www.nicap.org/rosbraz.htm

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 24 May 2012 - 08:21 PM.

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#72    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:58 PM

According to this article by Anthony Bragalia, though, Paul Brazel did return home to New Mexico after he learned that the military had taken his father into custody, and took over management of the ranch.  He also complained that the military refused to even let them water their livestock durng the clean up operation.  He refused to talk with Roswell investigators throughout his life, but his nephew recalled this.  

The military also warned the leasees of the ranch, J.B. and H.S. Foster, that they were never to discuss these events with anyone.  This was after Mack Brazel had called them about what was going on at the ranch, and there was even a witness to this phone call since it was made from a grocery store in Corona, New Mexico.

http://ufocon.blogsp...rom-foster.html


Interestingly, even today the Foster Ranch is still on federal land, and the government "expressly forbids mineral, oil, gas or similar development at the ranch. It also forbids right of way. This means that no road, powerline, fiber optic network, railroad or highway may ever be built on the land."

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 24 May 2012 - 10:42 PM.

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#73    quillius

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:16 PM

Hey McGuffin,

not sure if you have seen this before, I am not sure of the validity but thought you may find some parts interesting.

http://www.angelfire...y_record02.html

good to see you around, take care


#74    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:12 PM

View Postquillius, on 25 May 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Hey McGuffin,

not sure if you have seen this before, I am not sure of the validity but thought you may find some parts interesting.

http://www.angelfire...y_record02.html

good to see you around, take care



Hi Quillus,

I've been away for quite a while, busy with work and all that.

I got interested in this one, though, because it's an angle that I never thought much about before--the children of Mack Brazel.  I had never thought much about Dee Proctor, either, but then again he never had anything to say about Roswell compared to his mother Loretta.

And one person who we know almost nothing about is Margaret Brazel, Mack's wife, beyond some brief mentions that she was there the whole time, handled the wreckage and even helped collect some of it.  Of course, she was dead by the time the Roswell researchers got around to writing their books and conducting interviews with the Roswell residents.

One impression that comes across very strongly with all these witnesses is that the military did indeed warn them not to discuss these events at all, and many of them said little or nothing about what happened for the rest of their lives, including Mack, Paul and Margaret Brazel and Dee Proctor.

I do wonder if the entire Brazel family was taken into custody and held at Roswell Field for a week, or if they just held Mack.  Certainly something extraordinary had happened because his two adult sons, Paul and Bill Jr., returned home to Roswell from their other jobs to find out what was happening, only to find their parents and younger brother and sister gone and the ranch cordoned off by the military.

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#75    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:21 PM

And I would add that as a former army officer, whose father and grandfather were also army officers, I am very displeased with the idea of the military threatening, frightening and intimidating civilians in this way, especially small children, if indeed that is what happened.  We can argue about what really crashed there, either a secret military project or something out of this world, but I think that there was some very heavy-handed coercion afterwards that really makes this Roswell event stand out as very unusual and extraordinary.

Unfortunately, we will never know very much about how Dee Proctor and Vernon Brazel reacted to all this, although I get the impression that Mack Brazel was very protective of them.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 25 May 2012 - 01:39 PM.

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