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Homosexuality, sin, choice or biology?


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#16    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:21 PM

If you take the Bible to heart, yes; it is a sin.

Personally, I look to nature oftentimes to help me better understand the world around me. Homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom which means to me that it's a natural biological phenomena.

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#17    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:22 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 02 June 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Completely wrong:



I'll spare you the insects, Reptiles, and invertebrate.

Not wrong at all, none of those species would exist without sexuality that reproduces that species, that is why heterosexuality is in fact considered the norm in nature, not the other way around. So the question is legitimate. All you have demonstrated is that homosexuality exists in multiple species, something that is not even denied here.

Can any of those species, including mankind exist without heterosexuality playing a major part in their genetic or biological make-up?

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#18    shadowhive

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Can any of those species, including mankind exist without heterosexuality playing a major part in their genetic or biological make-up?

Why should that make any difference?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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#19    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 June 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

I'm no biologist, so I can't say what the exact cause is, be it genetic or some other natural condition.

The problem with that is that we are, as a species, immensely divorced from nature. We do not hunt or forage. We live in houses. We wear clothes. We take drugs to cure us when we're sick. And so on. We are completely divorced from any semblence of what our original natural state once was.

There are some animals that have displayed homosexuality. Some birds have paired with members of the same sex, for intance. So it's not entirely absent in nature.

The thing with humanity is there's no such thing as a 'standard' human. That is to say, there is no example of what a 'normal' human is. As such just about anything could be labelled as an aberation if it's in a minority.

Absolutely, the term aberration is not a moral judgment, it is an indicator of a minority compared to the majority.

But contrary to what many seem to believe, we are not divorced from nature. We are separated from the natural elements yes, but we are still inextricably linked to nature by our very biology.

Many species display homosexual characteristics, but again even within those species, they are a minority, which leads me to the question I asked, what could cause the aberration?

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#20    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Absolutely, the term aberration is not a moral judgment, it is an indicator of a minority compared to the majority.

But contrary to what many seem to believe, we are not divorced from nature. We are separated from the natural elements yes, but we are still inextricably linked to nature by our very biology.

Many species display homosexual characteristics, but again even within those species, they are a minority, which leads me to the question I asked, what could cause the aberration?

It's believed that homosexuality exists as a form of population control from Mother Nature :yes:

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#21    shadowhive

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Absolutely, the term aberration is not a moral judgment, it is an indicator of a minority compared to the majority.

But contrary to what many seem to believe, we are not divorced from nature. We are separated from the natural elements yes, but we are still inextricably linked to nature by our very biology.

Many species display homosexual characteristics, but again even within those species, they are a minority, which leads me to the question I asked, what could cause the aberration?

I really dislike the term aberation because of it's negative connotations.

Perhaps.

In genetics, the usual way that minor differences come up is due to genetic mutations or recessive genes. Usually those are passed on from parent to child, but since that i not really possible here it largely remain a question mark.

But I ask you: does it matter what causes it? And why?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#22    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:38 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 June 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Why should that make any difference?

The difference lies not in a moral judgment but in an evolutionary stance, evolutionary dead ends get us nowhere.

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 02 June 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

It's believed that homosexuality exists as a form of population control from Mother Nature :yes:

Ok, that is an acceptable idea...

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#23    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:39 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:



Not wrong at all, none of those species would exist without sexuality that reproduces that species, that is why heterosexuality is in fact considered the norm in nature, not the other way around. So the question is legitimate. All you have demonstrated is that homosexuality exists in multiple species, something that is not even denied here.

Can any of those species, including mankind exist without heterosexuality playing a major part in their genetic or biological make-up?
That's not the point sexuality has many other functions besides reproduction. Bonding, social cohesion, physical and psycological health through release of endorphins, stress reduction.  This is proven science. a chemical called Oxitossin is released during sex that is a nuritransmitter Responsible for bonding. There is so much more to it than simple reproduction. A simple course in human sexuality at your local JC will get you all this information.  But yes if you want to take a robotic biological view of the world even eating and crapping is about reproduction, so is a fevor, walking, smiling, talking, peeing, blinking, sneezing, coughing, and breathing. ;)

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#24    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 June 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

I really dislike the term aberation because of it's negative connotations.

Perhaps.

In genetics, the usual way that minor differences come up is due to genetic mutations or recessive genes. Usually those are passed on from parent to child, but since that i not really possible here it largely remain a question mark.

But I ask you: does it matter what causes it? And why?

In my view it is an important part of the answer. If it is genetics at play and we can isolate the mutation, then we can alter it in the future and eliminate it. But the question would remain, would people then want the cure, so to speak?

We seem to want to cure many different types of genetic mutation that causes problems of one kind of another, can we classify this separately because of the emotional issues attached to the subject?

Is homosexuality a problem at all?

It seems to be.

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#25    Frank Merton

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

I dunno but to me the word "aberration" carries a negative connotation and is a loaded word that therefore should be avoided in objective discussion of topics like this.  Criminal behavior is "aberrant"  The roots are "abnormal" and "errant."  Not words that add anything to this topic.

If one wants to emphasize the minority nature of the behavior (which I suppose is a statistical given, but one wonders as to the deep reality), then use "minority."  However, I don't see where whether it is minority or not is relevant to its legal or moral status.


#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:45 PM

It's not hard to understand diversity in biological organisms. All life ocupies a bell curve of traits. Without it life could not exist. This is why you finish your course of antibiotics and don't cut it short ;)

On every issue there will be Somone on the far right or left of the bell curve. It's not bad it's nature. It's not going anywhere and is one of the very mechanisms that allow for evolution.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#27    Jor-el

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 02 June 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

That's not the point sexuality has many other functions besides reproduction. Bonding, social cohesion, physical and psycological health through release of endorphins, stress reduction.  This is proven science. a chemical called Oxitossin is released during sex that is a nuritransmitter Responsible for bonding. There is so much more to it than simple reproduction. A simple course in human sexuality at your local JC will get you all this information.  But yes if you want to take a robotic biological view of the world even eating and crapping is about reproduction, so is a fevor, walking, smiling, talking, peeing, blinking, sneezing, coughing, and breathing. ;)

That is exactly the point, you seem to be able to justify our sexuality in terms that are in fact acceptable to society, hence all those different positive points, but they all are genetic imperatives that supplement the principle one, reproduction.

Put another way, love is the excuse your brain and hormones give you to reproduce. This is science at its most basic level. All our drives, thoughts and ideas revolving around sexuality are justifications for the basic imperative of reproduction.

We have divorced sex from reproduction artificially, but our bodies continue to function in the same way they always did.

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#28    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:49 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:


Is homosexuality a problem at all?

It seems to be.
it's not the homosexual with the problem now is it? If we want to cure the problems associated with homosexuality we have a much better and easier solution than gene therepy. ;) Which by the way is slowly already happening.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#29    shadowhive

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 June 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

In my view it is an important part of the answer. If it is genetics at play and we can isolate the mutation, then we can alter it in the future and eliminate it. But the question would remain, would people then want the cure, so to speak?

I consoder that to be the big reason why we shouldn't find the cause of homosexuality, because people like you would suggest finding a cure to it.

Gay people alive today would not want the cure, but religious people that believed it was a sin would and would likely lobby to make the cure mandatory.

Quote

We seem to want to cure many different types of genetic mutation that causes problems of one kind of another, can we classify this separately because of the emotional issues attached to the subject?

Where would it end? Once we start meddling with genetics in such a way what would next be considered a mutation? Hair colour/ Eye colour? Blood type? Cognitive ability? Where would it end?

Quote

Is homosexuality a problem at all?

It seems to be.

it seems to be a problem, mostly beccause religious people make it a problem. it shouldn't be a problem though.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#30    Frank Merton

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:54 PM

Yea it is a little scary.  The small people are disappearing, as are those with the Downs Syndrome and the deaf and the blind.  Soon gays will also disappear.  So will fat people and skinny people and people with this or that "deformity."  

Often these groups are sub-cultures with a complex of things to offer over and above the thing we notice.  Theatre of the blind, for example.