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What is science really about?


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#16    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:42 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 04 March 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

As it happens, I was a successful physicist.  My experience taught me the limitations of science (and philosophy can be included).  Therefore I sought something better and I found it, therefore, also yes, I have insight and understanding beyond any of you.
Now you're curing autism with snake oil.

Quote

Suppose that among the things I have discovered is that the best way to communicate one's advances is to "show, not tell" --- just like adults continue to talk in adult language when children are around so children learn to talk like adults?
You should have thought about this before making a train wreck of a topic. You have shown that you are ignorant of the subject.


#17    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:07 AM

What is science really about? Science = Organized knowledge.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#18    CRYSiiSx2

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:36 AM

Pretty much figured this was a religous rant...

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#19    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:15 AM

View Postthe L, on 05 March 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

What is science really about? Science = Organized knowledge.
Knowledge:  Stuff that is firmly established by observation and experiment done under procedures to avoid being misled by biases, coincidences, and authority.

Organized: Put in peer reviewed places where others can check and double-check; done under university or other institutional auspices; done by trained experts.

OK pick at those bones and see if some flesh can be added.


#20    Render

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:33 AM

OH i get it. Panto thinks science is all about her.

" i studied physics; so now i can cure the sick, part rivers, cause world disasters, understand everything about the human mind, the universe , etc "


Sorry panto, you got some recalculations to do.

Edited by Render, 05 March 2013 - 07:33 AM.


#21    Emma_Acid

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:51 AM

View Postpantodragon, on 04 March 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

To all:

As it happens, I was a successful physicist.

Can you point us to some of your publications please?


View Postpantodragon, on 04 March 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Therefore I sought something better and I found it, therefore, also yes, I have insight and understanding beyond any of you.

Oh please. No one here is going to be impressed with that - again, we get it all the time.


View Postpantodragon, on 04 March 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

A little puzzle: just suppose I'm telling the truth.  How could you know?  Is it my duty to persuade you of my authenticity?  Can I persuade you of my authenticity if I have moved on to places you have not yet reached?  Should I pretend that I still adhere to the old dispensations?  Or should I be able to talk my talk, leaving the way open for any who wish to follow?  Suppose that among the things I have discovered is that the best way to communicate one's advances is to "show, not tell" --- just like adults continue to talk in adult language when children are around so children learn to talk like adults?

Telling the truth about what? Have "insight and understanding beyond any of us"? I already know that's nonsense. And the condescending "adults and children" chat won't get anyone on your side.

Throw a stone on this forum and you'll hit someone who comes out with stuff like that - and it all boils down to exactly the same thing - you simply don't like how science works. You don't like the fact that you have to prove things, gather and present evidence, have your work reviewed, scrutinized and torn apart, and that sometimes science simply doesn't support certain world views.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#22    Render

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:14 AM

Tell you what panto, i'll make this easy for you.

If you're willing to pay me 50 dollars per post then im willing to fluff your craving ego.
Let me give you a sample of the offered service.

"oh wooooow panto; all my life i've been waiting for a mastermind like you to come my way."
"nooo panto; im not worthy of your insight"
"i just fainted, what you say helps me make sense of everything in life"

for 50 dollars only, limited offer.

Edited by Render, 05 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.


#23    Emma_Acid

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 05 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Can you point us to some of your publications please?

I'll take that as a "no".

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#24    lightly

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:13 PM

View Postpantodragon, on 28 February 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

What is science?  Is it the best way to find out about the world we live in?  Is it the honest pursuit of knowledge?

*snip*

So science is totally inadequate as a means of dealing with the world, it cannot achieve real understanding or insight, it does not know what life is about, and it cannot tell right from wrong.

Welcome pantodragon.     I'd agree  that  the Sciences  have limitations..  , not everything is known or understood  by practitioners thereof,   but  aren't the sciences attempts to understand  , rather than deal with the world?     That's a whole other can of worms .

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#25    Emma_Acid

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postlightly, on 08 March 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Welcome pantodragon. I'd agree  that  the Sciences  have limitations..  , not everything is known or understood  by practitioners thereof,   but  aren't the sciences attempts to understand  , rather than deal with the world? That's a whole other can of worms .

Ah, here we go again. The old "science has limitations because science doesn't know everything" shtick. That is why science exists: because we don't know everything, and we never will.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder

#26    Lilly

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:04 PM

Science is not a system to 'know everything'. Science is not a system to know the 'absolute truth'.

Science is a system of acquiring knowledge. As we acquire knowledge what we know changes and grows. It's really just that simple.

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#27    pantodragon

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 March 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

I generally take what others tell me about themselves at face value, but keep in mind the other possibilities.  As a result, if someone gives me medical advice because they claim to be a doctor, well, I will check with my own doctor.

Well, I hope your own doctor doesn’t go under the name of Frankenstein or Jekyll or Crippen………


#28    pantodragon

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:25 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 04 March 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

I'm curious to find out what area of physics you were successful in. And why you are not one now.

For my M.Phil. I worked in coherence optics, then went into industry to work on optical fibres (communications), then finally I went back to university to work in an engineering department on optical sensors.  That final was a two year appointment, but I did not last the two years.  By then I was utterly bored and totally disillusioned concerning the state of research in both industry and the academic world.  I found the world of science to be a barren wasteland.   It was so intensely competitive that any idealistic notions that science was about truth, about satisfying curiosity about the world etc, belonged to the world of fantasy.  It was not about truth; it was about winning, and if you had a big prestigious organisation behind you, then your theory/process/product would prevail, and if you did not, then your theory/process/product would fail.  It was a simple as that.

Also, the competitiveness meant that one was hampered by patents and copyright – I mean, the effort you have to put into making sure that anything you publish has not been published before is just so absurd.  You scour the literature, which is vast, and mostly not worth the paper it was written on – publication is about filling out your CV and getting yourself known etc – and even then you can’t be sure you didn’t miss something – which happened to me: I got a nasty letter one time from a professor at UCL accusing me of stealing his ideas (I hadn’t, and an independent adjudicator found in my favour.)  So, in spite of all the tedious scrutinizing of the literature, you can still get caught out.  But it really does just make research SO TEDIOUS.  Then I applied for a patent once, and it took something like 5 years to finalise it (by which time I was out of physics anyway) ....... that is just absurd and such a waste of time and resources and if your next move actually depended on getting the patent, well, you can imagine the frustration.

It took me a long time to realise just what a bad state the world of science was in.  At first I thought it was just the university that I was in, and then I went into industry in the UK (the biggest industrial research centre in  the country at that time), and I found things at least as bad there; and so maybe it was just research in the UK, but then I visited some big labs in the USA and Canada, such as the Naval Research Labs in Washington, and Bell Labs in Newark, and found that things were no better on the other side of the Atlantic.  I could recognise the same kind of covering up going on over there as was happening at home – under guise of safeguarding their research from the prying eyes of competitors they were really covering up the fact that nothing was happening!

At the same time I decided I was not going to lie in any papers I submitted for publication, and, well, you can imagine what that did for my career!!  It just wasn’t on.  If I wanted to go on getting published, I would have to lie – I hadn’t actually lied before, but I was moving into an area where it was impossible not to if you were to make it seem like you were doing something interesting --  because everyone else was doing so!

Anyway, when I finally went back to the academic world as a sort of last ditch effort to find somewhere where I could do something worthwhile I finally took on board that the search was futile.  There just IS nowhere one can do worthwhile research.

One final discovery was this: I KNEW I was not a good physicist, did not really have a satisfactory understanding of the subject, or experimental competence, and yet everywhere I went I was one of the best, and even when I met some of the real ‘stars’ in the field, it was obvious that they were really no better, and some possibly even worse, than me.  That is when I realised that scientists are working WAY BEYOND their competence.  They are playing with things they do not understand -- it was at this time that I realised that nuclear power was a bad idea!!!


#29    pantodragon

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 04:41 PM

This little lot of comments serves no better purpose than to reveal the culture of this forum.  I have just abandonded a forum on paganism because I found there a culture that had succumbed to paranoia and whose members were clearly psychologically unstable.  Perhaps the subject of unexplained msyteries attracts the same kind of people, because I find here a culture which is pretty well identical to the pagan forum.  I feel therefore that in your best interests I should leave this forum.


#30    Emma_Acid

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:47 AM

So you've decided to call it a day because no one here is stupid enough to buy your "I have better insight than any of you" shpiel? How predictable.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder




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