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911 inside job - for what?


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#1216    psyche101

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:34 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 06 March 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Considering that remains of crew and passengers of American 77 were recovered at the Pentagon reconfirms the aircraft was American 77, not to mention that American Airlines confirmed the aircraft as American 77. Additionally, ACARS did not show that American 77 landed anywhere else.

And the Truthers are using poor Wally Miller, who had the most unenviable of jobs to do.


Wally Miller looks decidedly uncomfortable standing in a dark gray suit in front of a church audience. He is hugely popular in Somerset, reelected as county coroner last year with more than 80 percent of the vote -- without campaigning. Since September 11, he has been in great demand as a speaker, not just locally, but at gatherings of coroners, emergency rescue workers and law enforcement groups from New Orleans to Toronto. He'll talk about his work, he says, but not too much about himself.

For months, he tells the church group, he's been conscious of "the burden I carried" as coroner, but reluctant to discuss it in public. He did not plan to attend this service at Somerset Alliance Church on March 11, the night of the six-month anniversary, he says, but has done so at the urging of friends who convinced him that "this is the time and place to talk about the spiritual aspect of what happened out there."

First, though, he wants to make clear that he has no special qualifications for the discussion or for what he's done since September 11. "I am a Christian," he says. "I'm not an exemplary Christian. For some reason, which remains unknown to him, Miller says, "God put me in charge of the site."

"I knew when I stood in that crater that it was going to be a long road ahead. But I knew we would make it through. I never dreamed it would go the way it has. My phone never stops ringing" and the demands seem endless, he says, "but it was okay . . . I was put here for this." He says he looks forward to the end of his role in Flight 93. "This is not something I want to be remembered for. It was part of my journey . . ."

Miller says he is often asked how he copes emotionally with the work he must do. He says he is not sure. Then he tells the church audience that, remarkably, two heavily damaged Bibles were found in the wreckage of the flight; a white one at the crash site that belonged to a passenger who was a practicing Buddhist; and a second one, black, of uncertain ownership. Miller says he ran across the second one on the floor of the warehouse where victims' belongings were being kept. The second Bible was scrunched up and was lying open, he says, to the 121st Psalm, which is customarily read at funerals. He says he has no idea who left the Bible in that position.

Then Miller opens the Bible he is holding and starts to read that Old Testament psalm to the church audience: "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help . . ."


LINK

Just does not sound like Wally is an ardent supporter of the "truth" movement does it ;)


:no: even worse than the ridiculous phone call claims.

Edited by psyche101, 07 March 2013 - 03:37 AM.

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#1217    Q24

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 05 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

The problem I have is with your #1; what do you mean we have 'zero evidence' that 77 was the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?  You mean no evidence except the small fact that Flight 77 and it's occupants did not land at it's destination and the people have never been heard from again?  And that a plane just so happened to hit the Pentagon in the timeframe that Flight 77 was supposed to be in the air?  Your CT relies heavily on things not being 'just a coincidence' and now you are going to say it might just be a coincidence that Flight 77 disappeared around the same time that the Pentagon was struck and thus there is 'zero evidence'?

Have you read the Northwoods document?  What I mean is, we have as much evidence Flight 77 crashed at the Pentagon as we would have had that the original aircraft crashed in the Northwoods plan, i.e. ‘zero’ because despite appearances the aircraft were actually switched.

The fact that Flight 77 did not land at its intended destination is evidence that Flight 77 did not land at its intended destination.  The fact that the passengers have never been heard from again is evidence that the passengers have never been heard from again.  The fact that an aircraft crashed at the Pentagon is evidence that an aircraft crashed at the Pentagon.   These are likewise similar occurrences that were planned in the deceptive Northwoods operation.

It is not ‘coincidence’ that Flight 77 disappeared at the time the Pentagon was struck whichever way we look at it.  Either Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon, which would not be a coincidence, or another aircraft impacted the Pentagon, which, as a part of the operation, would not be coincidence either.  Is it a coincidence that the passenger carrying aircraft in the Northwoods plan disappeared at the time the drone substitute aircraft crashed?  No, of course not, it’s just necessarily how the plan works.

The fact is this:  to prove that Flight 77 terminated at the Pentagon, serial numbers of the physical debris needed to be matched to records – this is only reasonable/sensible.  This process was never carried out.  The Northwoods plan was also dependent on this lack of identification process.


View PostLiquid Gardens, on 05 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Why is the identification of human remains from Flight 77 at the Pentagon not evidence?  The transponder being shut off, no serial numbers, etc, doesn't remove either of these evidence points: Flight 77 is missing and the occupant's remains were found at the Pentagon.  Again, the standard is almost never 'proof', if it was there'd really be no point in even discussing the CTs, the 'evidence' for those is nowhere near that standard.

If that were the case then I’d accept Flight 77 crashed at the Pentagon, but there is some important detail that you are missing out.  The fact is that identification of human remains was not carried out at the Pentagon.  Samples were analysed by the DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville, Maryland though none had come directly from the Pentagon crash site; they were received from Dover Air Force Base and Davison Army Airfield.  The problem: there is no available record of collection, transit or custody regarding this process.  The passenger samples (specifically the passenger samples, not the far greater many office occupants) could have been inserted anywhere in the chain of custody.

In all, there is no reasonable confirmation that Flight 77 or the passengers were ever at the Pentagon.  I’m talking to a reasonable standard of physical investigation that protects from potential deception, not speculation that leaves us so wide-open to a false flag.  I’m being fair/sensible here.  Whether Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon or not actually makes no odds to my theory.  I’m just saying how it is – the investigation was lacking and the official story remains unconfirmed.

Also some helpful advice – beware of skyeagle’s nonsense : -

View Postskyeagle409, on 05 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

That is incorrect. Turning off the transponder does not make an aircraft invisible to radar. Another misconception on the part of 911 conspiracist. Remember, the B-757 is not a stealth aircraft which should have told you that your claim is false. Even the F-117 stealth fighter was not totally invisible to radar. Turning off the transponder simply makes an aircraft more difficult to track on radar, not make it invisible.

How many times does it need pointing out to you?  Flight 77 disappeared from radar altogether.

I didn’t say that turning off a transponder makes an aircraft invisible to radar.  I said the airliner disappeared altogether from radar with the brackets “(primary radar too in this case)” indicating a distinction from the secondary radar/transponder reading that you should have noticed.  The fact is that Flight 77 disappeared altogether from radar for a period of time – no one actually saw that aircraft turn around - an area of low radar coverage the reason provided – which is an ideal opportunity to perform an aircraft switch.


View Postskyeagle409, on 05 March 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

You have just made another error. Who do you  think supplied the information needed for investigators to decipher black box data that pertained ONLY to the airframe of American 77? The two companies were American Airlines and the Boeing Company.

The airline companies provided the NTSB with the make and model (family/type) of the FDR allowing decode of the data.  This is contained in the NTSB report.  The NTSB were not in possession of the serial number of the FDR that would have tied it to a specific aircraft.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#1218    Q24

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM

Hi psyche.  I won’t respond to most of your last posts because personally I think your reasoning and speculation to avoid certain facts is absurd (and will be noted so by intelligent readers), especially that continued reliance on the ‘cyberbabe’ newscaster in preference to the FBIS, BBC or Al Jazeera reports – it’s really tough to discuss with someone of such persuasion.


View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

he was picked up by the Special Forces in the American army, who sent him to the Special Warfare school and encouraged him to pursue a doctorate in Islamic Studies and teach courses on the Middle East.

This was about Ali Mohammed, and with that you begin to understand Al Qaeda.  Even Mohammed’s own commanding officer in the U.S. army wanted him investigated and court-martialed, when this was denied leading him to conclude Mohammed was sponsored by the CIA.  Of course, you would know better.


View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

I am more than happy to consider him a liar and mass murderer 100% of the time if that helps.

Except it seems when bin Laden talks about killing civilians (which you do not take in the context of reciprocation/collateral damage he intended by the way) and disparagement of America – then his word is the pinnacle of truth and evidence to you.


View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

The US need no justification with Moussaoui. His courtroom antics speak volumes.

Actually the U.S. prosecution did need justification after Moussaoui was found innocent of 9/11 related charges due to lack of evidence – there was quite a furore in the media about it.  It’s a good job that ‘bin Laden’ came riding to the rescue within a couple of weeks to validate the prosecution failure and declare that Moussaoui had nothing to do with the 9/11 operation.


View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

There is no evidence that Bin Laden was incarcerated, and look at the house where has captured, in town, access to the Internet, and arials all over the building.

Yes there is, read this post again: -
http://www.unexplain...90#entry4240550

The compound was not in any normal town, but the Pakistan military district, only 1km from the elite military training academy and home to many retired military officers.

I don’t know where you are getting the claim regarding internet access (please not Annanova again?).  All reports I have read state there was no phone or internet connection.  The official explanation for this has been that bin Laden transported messages the old-fashioned way, by courier, to avoid electronic message intercepts.

The facts are this: -
  • a compound with security gates
  • and 12ft high walls, topped with barbed-wire
  • monitored by security cameras
  • no phone or internet connection
  • where the rubbish is burnt rather than left for collection
  • a courtyard for exercise
  • and armed guards
  • a building excluded from the official Pakistan census
Really think about each point - the comparison is clear to see; this is ideal match to features of a prison.

Look at the double-ended security corridor/gates: -

Posted Image


Now that of a prison: -

Posted Image


Lt Col Ralph Peters, whilst praising the U.S. operation: -

“I think the reason bin Laden stayed there so long was very straightforward - he was a prisoner in a gilded cage. The Pakistani ISI had him there, he wasn't free to go. They were in my view keeping him there until they needed him. So it was a gentle imprisonment.

I worked with the Pakistanis at least briefly in the 90s, I have followed them for a long time. And there is no way the Inter Services Intelligence Agency, the Pakistani CIA plus equivalent, didn't know where this guy was, they had to know. There is no doubt that the ISI knew he was there and helped him. It is my supposition that he wasn’t free to go, the deal was he wasn’t free to go and they protected him.”



Raelynn Hillhouse, an American security analyst with contacts in the intelligence services: -

“My sources tell me that the informant claimed that the Saudis were paying off the Pakistani military and intelligence (ISI) to essentially shelter and keep bin Laden under house arrest in Abbottabad, a city with such a high concentration of military that I'm told there's no equivalent in the US.”



Another security analyst, Juan Zarate: -

“One of the things that surprised me (in viewing the video) is, with bin Laden having been in this compound for about five, maybe six years, it's a little bit like he was under house arrest.  He was really a prisoner, in a sense, in this compound.  And so, what we may be looking at is a dimension of the prison that he was in for about five years there in Abbottabad.”



But typically in your blinkered way, there is ‘no evidence’ that bin Laden was incarcerated.  I guess you must like your fantasy/propaganda world, but not everyone is so content to remain in the dark.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#1219    Babe Ruth

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 01:48 PM

Psyche

Wally did not have to deal with the grief of all those families--he never even met them.  They were names on a list to him, a list of names provided by the FBI, attached to tissue samples or DNA samples provided him by the FBI.

Being an honest man and small town funeral director, he accidentally spilled the beans to the media, reporting the simple truth--they found no human bodies, no baggage, nothing resembling the scene one would expect where a  half loaded 757 had just crashed.

Shortly after he spilled the beans, and after the overhead news helicopters corroborated the story--no airplane--the feds showed up on site.  Realizing what had happened, they made a bad situation tolerable.  They asked Wally if he could be a team player.  Who tells the FBI 'no' in a situation like that?  Nobody.

He agreed to be a team player, and eventually issued an amended statement about what they had seen.  The feds set him up in a temporary morgue about 10 miles away on the other side of the county.  The feds designated a new site of "the crash", borrowed equipment from a local heavy equipment operator, roped off the "scene of the crime", and would let nobody see it.

Wally was subsequently provided samples of human remains, identified by the feds.  Wally signed off on the death certificates for the State Of Pennsylvania.

Years later in an amiable interview, Wally and other locals told Bollyn the story.  There was no Boeing there that day.

That is confirmed by ACARS data showing the tail number assigned as UA93 was still transmitting from Illinois somewhere, 30 minutes after the supposed crash in PA.


#1220    Q24

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:22 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Wally did not have to deal with the grief of all those families--he never even met them.  They were names on a list to him, a list of names provided by the FBI, attached to tissue samples or DNA samples provided him by the FBI.

Being an honest man and small town funeral director, he accidentally spilled the beans to the media, reporting the simple truth--they found no human bodies, no baggage, nothing resembling the scene one would expect where a  half loaded 757 had just crashed.

I thought it was only official story adherents that believe in intact human bodies after an airliner crashes headlong into a solid object.  Of course there should be no bodies and Miller’s initial comments confirmed this, though body parts and tissue samples were later recovered from the Flight 93 crash site.

I think that a certain amount of emotional disconnect is good in consideration of theories and seeking the truth.  But when people like Wally Miller and Lloyd England are dragged in with no apparent basis other than speculation, of hugely contentious logic (they asked a random citizen to ‘be a team player’ in the cover-up?  Oh dear), then it stretches even my considerable limits of what is tasteful.


View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

That is confirmed by ACARS data showing the tail number assigned as UA93 was still transmitting from Illinois somewhere, 30 minutes after the supposed crash in PA.

This is the second time in quick succession that you have needed to be corrected on the ACARS issue.

The attempted ACARS uplinks are not necessarily reflective of the aircraft physical location (demonstrably so in this case).

There were no transmissions from the aircraft after the crash times.

Please read this article very carefully: -
http://www.unexplain...showentry=24415

To anyone with an ability to understand the system, it is very black and white: your claim is false.

It’s not even like it ‘could’ be correct/open to interpretation, it’s just patently false.

Edited by Q24, 07 March 2013 - 02:32 PM.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#1221    Stundie

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 03:08 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I see a tremendous amount of difference between Bush and Usama. Usama allows for women and children to be killed, Bush laments such, Bin Laden actively attacks America, America sent troops to Afghanistan to help which Bin Laden denies, which I found a huge insult to those who lost lives fighting so these cretins might enjoy freedom, Bin Laden declared war on America, Bush declared war on terrorism, and whilst 100-150 thousand are presumed dead, I understand that the vast majority of civilians killed in Iraq were not killed by US troops. I recognise that the actions of the USA bears some clear responsibilities for the chaos, but ineptitude, miscalculation, ignorance, etc do not qualify as genocide. Otheriwse the United Nations and France would be responsible for the genocide in Rwanda (900,000 people). Putin would be a better candidate for "genocider", since the vast majority of Chechen civilians killed under his watch were killed by Russian troops. And in now way do I believe that at any time did Bush collaborate with Australia or the UK in a deliberate attempt to harm any civillian. Bin Laden considers civillians collateral damage.

I see why you can see a difference but I really do not see a difference at all. The US allows for women and children to be killed but they are classed as casualties of war. Wikileaks release of the classified Iraq War Logs showed that over 150,000 people died a violent death with 122,000 being innocent civilians. Although the US armies didn't directly kill all of these people, they are still culpable.

After the overthrowing Saddam and the Iraqis realised that the US were not leaving, the Sunni and Shia's were united against the occupation and even held marches against the occupation back in 2004. Even the Sadrist and Sunni MPs were united. There was no civil war but the US couldn't have that. Sunnis were soon banned from employment in major enterprises and Lewis Paul Bremer dissolved 400,000 former soldiers putting them out of work which helped create an insurgency. The coalition was collaborating with Shia extremists known as the Wolf Brigade targeting Sunni civilians, the Iraqis were more terrified of Wolf Brigade than the occupying forces. Then in 2007, there was a redirection when the US paid Sunni Militias they had previously been fighting against including Al-Qaeda fighters, to fight the Sunni extremists and the Shia Madhi army who are portrayed as pro-iranian. They have manage to divide and conquer by creating a civil war and help promote sectarianism. This would not have happened without US involvement.

You can't blame the UN or France for the responsibility of the genocide in Rwanda, you could argue that by doing nothing, they allowed it to happen, but that doesn't make them responsible for it. And yes, I would blame Putin for the killing of Chechen civilians. And I would also argue that US thinks the killing of innocent civilians as collateral damage, look at the van of innocent people that pulled over to help the people shot down by the gunship in the Collateral Murder video released by Wikileaks for evidence of that.  

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I do not feel religion is an argument, it is in itself unsupported. Yet that is why we have Jihad, and Jihad being a direct citation of violence against others, ought to be outlawed. To me it is like saying certain faiths are OK with domestic violence so we have to accept it.
I agree that religion is not an argument. I think the term Jihad has been misused and misunderstood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Violence is the last option and that is where extreme forms of Islam come into it.

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I agree that soldiers have to be held accountable. I do not subscribe to the war zone claim, I know that war would be worse than what I could even imagine, but I do not remember ANZAC's carrying on like this. It's not the first war fought, and it is not the first time we have seen unethical behaviour, Vietnam should have been a mental wake up call. Haditha is an atrocity I agree, and I would like to see harsher punishment. But I do not know if the is sympathy to ones own people, or to a greater picture. If the US did prosecute those at Haditha, would that have given more sympathy to Abhu Graib? Whilst Abhu Graib is considered an example of American injustice, looking at it closely, it is not as clean cut as the bleeding hearts would have one believe.
There might be a bigger picture, I cannot see it I admit, but if not, then I agree it is one sided to not dispense justice to perpetrators if US citizens. I think if Bales is not incarcerated for life, only so we can chop his brain up when he is dead to try and find what was broken, then he should be handed over the Afghan officials. That is the patriotism you spoke of, looking after one's own, and I admit it is most certainly a reality. I am personally not affected by that being an Aussie.
I think this is the sort of thing that needs to go to the press. There is most definitely two minds of the public on that issue.
As someone once said "Immoral wars, breed immoral behaviour".

If the US did prosecute and treat others as they would like to be treated so to speak, then there would be a lot more people sympathetic to US causes but the truth is, that it highlights the lengths the US will go to, even if it's doing things immoral, to protect it's hegemony over the region.

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Religion has something of a history of sacrificing that which is greatest value to one to one's preferred deity. These people take religion to an extreme. They do not use their own all the time either:

Last summer, Afghan President Hamid Karzai pardoned a group of would-be child suicide attackers ranging in age from 8 to 17. Some of the 20 youngsters told Karzai they had been recruited by the Taliban, strapped with vests and ordered to detonate them near foreigners, the president's office said in a statement last August. Militants told the youngsters that the blasts would spare them but kill the foreigners, it said.


LINK

Not all of them it seems, I remember seing a thread here last year I think, where a child ran to officials and told them she had bombs strapped to her, they got her out of it.
I think that people taking religion and using it for the own gains and ends is something which has happened throughout history. Look at the Catholics church in response to child abuse it committed.
As I said, killing is killing and there are plenty of ways to justify it, whether it is for religious reasons, revenge, pre emptive attack or reason X. As for religion, it doesn't matter whether they are using a child as bomb or as a sexual partner, they are both abhorrent.

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

He is, and this is a kind description I think. A group of guys here called The Chasers caught him in the street and really took the Mickey. Really funny actually.

I do not see this as similar to the Christian comparison. Islam is mainly divided into two factions. That would be like Christianity having only say Catholics and Protestants. What Bin Laden represents also represents law in the Middle East. Shari'ah is not small, and comments like those of Hillali show us that this is what the leaders (a reasonable comparisons seems an Archbishop?) are preaching, and what they are spreading. The Pope is not ever going to incite a holy war. Muti's an Imams do, and all the time, and all over the world, and they have the blessing of their leaders. By comparison, Westboro seems little more than a joke. And they are to anyone outside f that particular group. Westboro also calls Catholicism Devil Worship. The main comparison I see is small minded people, but in every other way, they seem pretty different. They even say Christians are to blame for all the worlds woes today. More of a third party that stole the name really - LINK - Westboro Baptist Church Claims Christians Are To Blame For 'Fag Marriage' (VIDEO)
I love the Chasers, it's a shame they aren't on TV any more as far as I'm aware, but I think they were to risqué...lol

I see all religions the same, whether it is Islam or Christianity, they can be very good for people but of course in the wrong hands, they can be very, very bad. Not all Imans preach hate, there might be a few that do but we can't use the actions of a few, to outlaw something that is good for many other people.

Again, it would be like saying that because the Catholic Church didn't little to nothing to stop the child abuse and turned a blind eye to such evil doings within it's own society, that we should outlaw it.  

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I do not feel so, and I would vote for a death penalty. I think that is the price to pay for being in a society. Lethal injection is not barbaric painful nor humiliating, it is peaceful and puts an end to people who cannot fit into society, and are judged so by a jury of peers. Any child molester, murderer or the like IMHO has given away their rights, as that is the cost of living in society. I believe in a civilised death, and think death should be a more open subject, I completely support Euthanasia. Burying people up to their necks in the ground, and enticing their friends and neighbours to painfully and slowly kill them I think is about the lowest a human can sink to. If a man forfeits his right to life by forcibly taking a happy child's life and ending it I feel has no place n society, and must be removed. Quietly, quickly ,and painlessly. Put them to sleep, do not make them kneel in midday sun in front of all those who are part of their life, and have their head hacked away for a slow, humiliating painful death. I think a child killer is were we can draw this line as per cases such as the James Bulger case, but upon reaching a mature age, such should simply be expired.
This is the ultimate price one can pay for the worst actions one can commit. As such, I feel dignity is shown by finally doing "the right thing" and removing oneself from society is an act that should as such should be provided with privacy and dignity.
I think this is a discussion for another day, but lethal injection is not painless.

http://www.newscient...m-painless.html

I know where you are coming from, but I cannot condone state executions, especially when they get it wrong. A prime example of that being Derek Bentley who was hung here in the UK. If we still had the death penalty here in the UK, the Birmingham six, Guildford four and many others would have been put to death when they are later found to be innocent.

Killing people is barbaric and its doesn't matter how it is done and I'm not a fan of killing innocent people.

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I think we rely too much on Governments for things like this. Apple and Windows have more money than the US does. We need Government's to put rules in place, and give guidelines. I do not know if it os so much control, and just keeping a status quo. Leaders have too short a time to make a real difference I feel, this I feel is not right. the Government does not use religion, religion was the Government until the 30 years war, when the common man insisted on a say. Not that it is a new Western concept, ancient rome practised democracy.
Whilst it is true that some people are given a hard time for speaking out, if they do, and are indeed right in what they say, it seems to me that these people are eventually recognised. Sometimes posthumously unfortunately, but if they have fact behind them, in antiquity, they tend to prevail. In fact, Ignaz Semmelweis immediately comes to mind as a precedent.
Bill Gates said he would end world hunger. If he can, and does, I think it will be a major motivating step forward for other philanthropists to make their mark. I keep an eye on Branson. He is going to do good things for all of us yet.
Not much to disagree on here.

View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I have no doubt he would have uncovered the plot, and I think Bodine knew that, and wanted the limelight, but was unable to hold a candle to ONeill.

Had he survived 911 I bet he could have really made some waves, but if the FBI had given him more room to investigate, I think he wold have been well on the way to disolving Al Qaeda now.
I think he might have uncovered more than that, but unfortunately we will never know.


View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I do not know, to be frank, you could get some pretty hard*spam filter* 50 years ago, just on paper. Betty Page still turns heads, and despite heavy bondage which shocked most, she was quite religious. She something to the effect of "If God gave me a bidy that makes people happy, why should I not show it to them and make them happy?" Perspective I guess.

But I think that the major benefits of Western society would simply allow people to adopt and embrace it. Shari'ah only benefits men, who are the only ones allowed to vote, It's circular to keep it in place no matter what, and democracy out. I homestly do not think anyone would need to be erradicated, we just need to allow them to experience the benefits. From there, I feel it is just time. Generationally, Shari'ah would just be deemed unacceptable, as the notion of such suppression is in the West.
I'm much prefer the western society than that of the Islamic world, but just because I think it's better, that doesn't mean I think it is best for everyone else too. And even though I think it's better for everyone, I'm not a fan of dictating how others choose to live their lives, whether it benefits just the men. You have to look at what you call the benefit,  Islamic societies from many years ago had a fairly relaxed attitude to alcohol but as time went on it was outlawed and seen as sinful. Here in the UK we have major binge drinking issues, so I'm sure there would be some people converted but I'm sure there would be some that are horrified by the things that go off in western culture.


View Postpsyche101, on 06 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Ohh, not I would not say you are a genuine CT'er, as I say, it has been a very pleasant discussion. I had that impression to begin with due to your debate with Sky, but I see now that is simply not the case. I guess I would consider you from my view as a fence sitter?
Oh I wouldn't say I was a fence sitter but I wouldn't call myself a CTer either. I swing more of the way of a conspiracy being true than the official story but I'm open to all possibilities.

As I've said before, I had no reason to doubt the official story and it wasn't until I watched a great documentary called The Power of Nightmares that made me question it. There was a part in it where British troops were in the Tora Bora looking for Bin Laden and being sent by Americans to various locations, only to find startled sheep herders and that there was a suspicion that Bin Laden was given a safe passage to Pakistan. (This was back in 2006!) That is when I really started questioning it. I think the whole Iraq has WMDs and the case made by Blair for the UK involvement had already made me think, if they can lie about this, what else could/are they lying about.

I do not believe the official story to be true based on my own investigation and research, this doesn't mean that I automatically think there is a conspiracy either, all it means is that I think it's a possibility. It could also be possible that the official story is true too, but I'm not really seeing the evidence to support it.

What threw it for me was the movement and actions of those in power like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. Other than Bush, all of there accounts from the moment the first plane hit to the last one (If a plane crashed at Shanksville... ;)...lol) are sketchy to say the least and I would call them criminally negligent. But again, it's a discussion for another day.

Part two coming up.....lol

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#1222    Stundie

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

Psyche101 said:

Have you seen any footage of those numpties at Ground Zero lounge? Laying of the Scotch before ranting might be a good idea for those blokes. This idiots do try to absolver murderers, bloody idiots the lot of them.

Or this moron



Who's book Painful Questions has been aptly described as one of the softest piles of steaming BS ever produced. Or this tosspot:


Who goes as far as to suggest that ordinary Americans are involved in the cover up, and have faked their deaths.


He deserves to be handed over to a group of people who lost loved ones in these disasters.

These guys are detrimental to the way of life our brothers, sisters, uncles Aunts, and Dads and Mums fight and have fought for. No compassion for the real victims, these people are the ones absolving murderers with their actions for personal gain. They are really not much more than the scum who train for Al Qaeda.
I do not really follow any particular conspiracy theorists and I'm not really sure who they are to be honest.

I think it helps if you understand that these people are like me and do not think the official story is true, I do not know what they are claiming, whether they think no planes hit the WTC or whether it was a laser beam, but it might help you understand that the reason these people think the way they do is because they do not believe in the official story.

Again, I do not have a hatred of those who gain from 9/11 conspiracies, even if there conspiracy theories are bonkers because if we look at what others had to gain from 9/11 as a whole, what these guys earn is peanuts in comparison to the money being earned by those in power who had more to gain from it.

Psyche101 said:

Agreed, not the way things roll as I understand, but I agree. I bet ONeill would too. One is always remembered for the last thing they did wrong, not all the good things one does. This cost ONeill the path he needed to prevent 911. I admit that how Bodine remins scott free to this day is indeed a bewilderment. She did not entirely get away with it, we Aussies ousted he role and made it public in an ABC docudrama called The Path to 911. Upon having seen the show, she retorted:

"According to the mythmakers, a battle ensued between a cop obsessed with tracking down Osama bin Laden and a bureaucrat more concerned with the feelings of the host government than the fate of Americans and the realities of terrorism. I know this is false. I was there. I was the ambassador."

Yeah Barb, we hear ya. Loud and clear honey. Shame you could not hear ONeill, all that way back from Yemen when he was warning her about the cells.
But its not just her, there are plenty of others who have not been held accountable for screw ups.

Quote

Most CT'ers are delusional, do not have an argument, and just regurgitate what they hear. Many do not have an ounce of engineering capability, but will tell you that WTC was controlled demolition. For the larger part, just their claims are a strong indicator. Is it a regurgitated argument that has been doing the rounds? Or is it out and out plain nonsense? If neither, then it would appear serious debate will ensue. Not that any of the Thermite or Laser beams claims hold any water, or ever did. People like Bee cannot be as dim as they make out, in that case it is a game, some people have fun winding others up. Bee used to be a school teacher. I do not beliebe for a second that the ditzy questions and cailms she spreads are things she is so much as capable of believing in to begin with. The cutesy "dumb blonde" game. And I am fine with that. We are all different, and these claims are so off the wall, it is hard to see anyone taking them as truly serious.
I would have to disagree, of course there are some delusional conspiracy theorists but there are plenty of rational, logical people who believe in the 9/11 theories too.

I think that to tar most of them with the same brush is just a simple way of dismissing arguments which may have validity. There are plenty who do have engineering capabilities and will tell you that the WTC was a controlled demolition, I certainly believe it was possible, more possible than the official collapse theory.

I do not know who Bee is??

I would also say that instead of taking the attitude that all of the thermite and even laser beams theories do not hold water is to look at it like a true skeptic. In otherwords, don't hold any thing as true and work with possibilities and I'll assure you that you will see some validity to the claims.

OK, maybe not the laser beam, but I am open enough to accept the possibility, even though I think  there truly isn't any chance of the laser beams being used.

Psyche101 said:

Religion has always been a strong motivator, and these people were very proud of what they had accomplished, there is no reason to look at the US, they bungled the investigation and paid for it, but that is about the depth of their responsibility - stupidity and complacency. Some crazy religious zealots took their faith to an extreme, and hurt a lot of people for an imaginary ideal. Such is common in history, it is just that such thinking is very foreign to the west having abandoned such barbaric and backwards ways about 400 years ago. Just the astounding lack of respect for human life as a whole Indicates fundamental Isalm. The US learned the same lesson at Pearl Harbour, when they could not so much as fathom an enemy so determined as to take their own lives and fly their planes into targets, killing themselves for the Emperor. Astounding they fell for it again.
I understand that religion is strong motivator and I'm sure there were many cheering when the towers collapsed. I would accept the bungled investigation argument but it appears that even the commissioners knew they were set up to fail.

Why would something be set up to fail? You have to remember than the White House didn't want an investigation but bowed to public pressure from the families, then when they tried to set up the first one, they were going to get Kissinger to do it initially until there were obvious signs of a conflict of interest.

But it's not even a bungled investigation, there was blatant lying which really makes the whole point of an investigation pointless if you allow people to lie or do not have the power to punish those who perjure.

As Skyeagle as pointed out, the idea of using planes as weapons was not beyond the scope of the US government, we knew of Operation Bojinka many years before.

Even less than a year before, the US military were holding exercises with a large model of the Pentagon planning for terrorist attacks.

Posted Image
There were even military drills of planes hitting the WTC initially planned just after the 9/11 which were then cancelled.  

Psyche101 said:

Indeed, the US justice system would probably collapse. Yes, indeed it would be a major blow. Even with things like MKUltra in our history, we still get amazed that the Government are not always 100% of the time in out immediate best interests. We do need ombudsmen, we do need impartial bodies. Bodine alone is proof of this. Even if the level of her incompetence was made note of, it would undermine much of the US system. OBL was not even half as smart as he thought he was, he set sights on the wrong target to accomplish what he wanted, but again, blinded by what he thinks is important.  

From what I understand, the Government could have prevented this, but had the wrong people in the wrong places, and one main person dropped the ball, which I feel is a very different thing as to what the CT'ers propose. I think it is fairly simple, just a bit muddy. Some patience, and the waters clear I feel.
The problem is that there is a pattern to these mistakes.

If you look at the FAA, the commission blamed them for allowing the planes to hit their targets by y not notifying the right people, even though they had done this for many years before, yet the did a really good job of grounding all of the planes in the sky, even though they had never done this before.

When you look patterns, mistakes on stuff they were doing for years and

Psyche101 said:

I do not know if he is a liar, or a crackpot, but one of the two no doubt.
I do not think he is a liar, a bit crackers maybe but I wouldn't call him a liar.

Psyche101 said:

Wow, that lady really got the short end of the stick. It's terrible that things like this can happen. I am sincerely very sorry to hear she had to live with that.
I think it was the times, this was back in the 1950s. Child abuse was never spoken about and I would say that here in the UK, it was only discussed after consumer programs like That's Life which brought it to the attention of the public.

Psyche101 said:

Quite a similar story has been unfolding here over the last 10 months or so. We used to have a family show called "Hey Dad"! which was actually pretty good. Some nasty allegations are coming out about "Dad" (Robert Hughes) seeing an icon like that which one grows up with, you do not want it to be true, but unfortunately  sometime facts are facts, and these things test us form time to time. Realisation is quite a deflating let down.
It is and I'm sure you could find some people out there willing to defend his actions.

Psyche101 said:

I agree that conspiracy can and does happen. Sky would not deny this as he has participated in a cover up. He will tell you so. I am really glad to speak to you, I have seen a different light to many aspects of the case, and indeed, ONeill is a pivotal point in resolving 911 and the responsibility of the US, and I too would like to see everything out in the open public like it or lump it. But where we see instances such as Bodine letting the nation down, I am hoping not to give the zealots something to run with because in most cases, they need little to find a way of twisting a thing out of proportion and creating a monster, Again  the Ground Zero Lounge comes to mind. They now congregate to sit around screaming at each other, then patting themselves on the back as to how these "truthers" have uncovered evil plots the government wish to experiment on them with. Nobody is perfect,  I bet most people in Government realise this, but truthers seem to think they are. Thanks for the kind words Stundie. Aways a pleasure to discuss with you mate.

Cheers.
Well I can't comment on truthers seeing as I do not know any personally. Other than a few I have spoke to on forums and the ones I've dealt with via email, they all come across as nice people, even the CIT guys who are often labelled and name called.

Although it's a pleasure chatting with you, I think we need to shorten the conversation down a little because we are going off on all kinds of subject matters such as the death penalty and Iran. Also formulating a response is taking a while and sometimes frustrating, especially when your mouse as a back key that you hit it occasionally, wiping off everything you have typed...Arrgghhh!! lol

Cheers

Stundie :)

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1223    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Wally did not have to deal with the grief of all those families--he never even met them.

Do you realize what you have just said?

"Grief of all those families."


Quote

They were names on a list to him, a list of names provided by the FBI, attached to tissue samples or DNA samples provided him by the FBI.

How about asking the families of the victims of United 93 what they think?

Quote

Being an honest man and small town funeral director, he accidentally spilled the beans to the media, reporting the simple truth--they found no human bodies,...

Let's be realistic. Why would anyone expect to find intact bodies of such a violent aircraft crash? How many intact bodies were recovered from the crash site of PSA 1771? The answer to that question is, there were no intact bodies found at that crash site.

Quote

...no baggage, nothing resembling the scene one would expect where a  half loaded 757 had just crashed.

I don't think you are even familiar with aircraft crash sites. Were intact luggage recovered from the crash site of PSA 1771? If not, then why?

Quote

Shortly after he spilled the beans, and after the overhead news helicopters corroborated the story--no airplane--the feds showed up on site.

That is rather silly considering that after people provided photos of similar crash sites, you come back with the same lame "no airplane" remark. Photos were provided to you which depicted no intact aircraft wreckage at those crash sites.

Now once again, why do you not see an intact Tu-154 in this photo?


Posted Image


Quote

There was no Boeing there that day.

We are all familiar with the way you make up false stories on a regular basis and here is an example. You say there was no Boeing  there that day and yet look what was observed, photographed and recovered from the crash site you have said, no Boeing crashed there.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

So once again, you got caught. You must think that people here were born yesterday.

Quote

That is confirmed by ACARS data showing the tail number assigned as UA93 was still transmitting from Illinois somewhere, 30 minutes after the supposed crash in PA.

That would have been impossible. Do you even know why? Radar did not track United 93 over Illinois after it crashed nor did ACARS depict United 93 landing anywhere, which should have told you something but I think you knew that already. :yes: In other words, you made up another false story, which is typical.

Edited by skyeagle409, 07 March 2013 - 05:35 PM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1224    Babe Ruth

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

View PostQ24, on 07 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

I thought it was only official story adherents that believe in intact human bodies after an airliner crashes headlong into a solid object.  Of course there should be no bodies and Miller’s initial comments confirmed this, though body parts and tissue samples were later recovered from the Flight 93 crash site.

I think that a certain amount of emotional disconnect is good in consideration of theories and seeking the truth.  But when people like Wally Miller and Lloyd England are dragged in with no apparent basis other than speculation, of hugely contentious logic (they asked a random citizen to ‘be a team player’ in the cover-up?  Oh dear), then it stretches even my considerable limits of what is tasteful.




This is the second time in quick succession that you have needed to be corrected on the ACARS issue.

The attempted ACARS uplinks are not necessarily reflective of the aircraft physical location (demonstrably so in this case).

There were no transmissions from the aircraft after the crash times.

Please read this article very carefully: -
http://www.unexplain...showentry=24415

To anyone with an ability to understand the system, it is very black and white: your claim is false.

It’s not even like it ‘could’ be correct/open to interpretation, it’s just patently false.

He was not a random citizen Q, he was the owner of a private funeral home in a small town, and served when needed as the county coroner.  In his role as county coroner at the site, he told the media what he had seen--nothing suggesting a wrecked Boeing.

Your understanding of the dynamics of airplane crashes is incomplete.  Who said there should be no bodies?  Bodies were vaporized at WTC, but not from impact.  Bodies were NOT vaporized at the Pentagon, goes the story, so how do you reconcile that with your statement above?

Headlong into a solid object?  Cripes, you're starting to sound like Skyeagle.  What solid object?  Prove it.  You cannot, and all statements and pictures show no airplane.

Miller was PROVIDED body parts and/or tissue samples, at his morgue 10 miles away from the accident site, by the feds.

When I used the term "transmission" as in transmitting within the ACARS system, I do NOT mean voice transmissions, as ACARS is but a texting system operated by computers on VHF radio.  The computer belonging to 93 was still communicating with the computer operated by ARINC, and that is on the record.  Yes, an inconvenient fact for the OCT, but a fact nonetheless.

The location of the airplane can be closely approximated, because the VHF frequencies used by the system are different in different geographical areas.  That, so there will not be any bleedover or frequency interference.  The investigator known as Woody has worked on this in great detail.  ARINC and UA dispatchers were deposed by FBI people, and it's on the record.  I have provided the link to Woody's blog here before.  Apologies for not having it at my fingertips right now.

ACARS is but a VHF based texting system, and all times and locations are recorded.  It's there, and it corroborates the statements of Miller and his helpers and the video from helicopters overhead.

Bollyn's interview of Miller resulted from the Dover AFB Mortuary scandal of  November of 2011.


#1225    skyeagle409

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:30 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

He was not a random citizen Q, he was the owner of a private funeral home in a small town, and served when needed as the county coroner.  In his role as county coroner at the site, he told the media what he had seen--nothing suggesting a wrecked Boeing.

Are you implying that United Airlines, recovery crews, coroners, investigators and many others who have worked at the crash site were all lying when they confirmed the crash site was that of United 93? As I have said before, you must think that people here were born yesterday.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1226    Q24

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

He was not a random citizen Q, he was the owner of a private funeral home in a small town, and served when needed as the county coroner.  In his role as county coroner at the site, he told the media what he had seen--nothing suggesting a wrecked Boeing.

Of course Miller did not see a wrecked Boeing, because there was no wrecked Boeing, there was a smashed to smithereens Boeing largely embedded in the earth which matches the case of Caspian Airlines Flight 7908 that you do not comment on.

And yes Miller was a random coroner who you allege, on absolutely no basis other than your own desire/imagination, was coerced to be a ‘team player’ in the cover-up of a non-existent crash.  The whole idea is ridiculous even on its own, never mind when we look at the full body of evidence and logic which demonstrates that there was an airliner crash.


View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

Your understanding of the dynamics of airplane crashes is incomplete.  Who said there should be no bodies?  Bodies were vaporized at WTC, but not from impact.  Bodies were NOT vaporized at the Pentagon, goes the story, so how do you reconcile that with your statement above?

The statements I make are easily reconciled because in no instance of the 9/11 crashes do I expect to find passenger bodies.  This is more favourable than OCTs who in their inconsistency say passenger bodies were at the Pentagon but should not be at Shanksville, or many alternative theorists who inexplicably want vice versa.


View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

What solid object?  Prove it.  You cannot, and all statements and pictures show no airplane.

You want me to prove that the Pentagon and ground were in the respective flight paths?  Of course no statements and pictures show an airplane – we would not expect so after a nose first impact with the Pentagon or ground.  What statements and pictures do show is an airliner crash resulting in a much airliner debris.


View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

When I used the term "transmission" as in transmitting within the ACARS system, I do NOT mean voice transmissions, as ACARS is but a texting system operated by computers on VHF radio.  The computer belonging to 93 was still communicating with the computer operated by ARINC, and that is on the record.  Yes, an inconvenient fact for the OCT, but a fact nonetheless.

The location of the airplane can be closely approximated, because the VHF frequencies used by the system are different in different geographical areas.  That, so there will not be any bleedover or frequency interference.  The investigator known as Woody has worked on this in great detail.  ARINC and UA dispatchers were deposed by FBI people, and it's on the record.  I have provided the link to Woody's blog here before.  Apologies for not having it at my fingertips right now.

ACARS is but a VHF based texting system, and all times and locations are recorded.

Did I say you meant voice transmissions?  I know exactly what you meant – the misinformation you are regurgitating from P4T and Woody.  The computer belonging to Flight 93 was not communicating with ARINC after the crash time at all – that is complete ignorance/misunderstanding of the record and system, much less it being ‘on the record’.  The record shows that the aircraft cease downlink attempts after the crash times.  It’s your problem if you cannot research this for yourself or follow the article I provided to understand it.  How about show me what you are looking at (supposing you have done some research into this yourself and aren’t just regurgitating P4T and Woody) and I’ll explain it to you?

The evidence held up by P4T and Woody, depicting those RGS which you have been misled to believe are a discrepancy with the official story, are actually messages between the airline and ARINC, nothing to do with direct communication from the aircraft.  The ACARS manual clearly notes that where communication is lost with the aircraft, uplink will be attempted from the RGS denoted by the airline, based on standing data.  So those messages are not indication of the aircraft physical location – complete poppycock.

Do you ever think perhaps there is a reason why I turn into a rabid OCT on this one?  I’m no friend of the OCT.  Do you not think, if there was a shred of possibility in the claim, that I’d let it go?

That’s the worst part - it’s unambiguous, yet the P4T article remains online.  Then again, perhaps it is best that these people make themselves look like fools to educated researchers.  The only problem, it does quickly become apparent in these discussions that most people, on either side of the argument, are not educated researchers.  So... perhaps the P4T article has its uses as a recruitment tool?  Is that the game?  I guess it depends whether the aim is only to convert the masses rather than go through the legal channels.  Either for money or politics, doesn’t matter.  To hell with the truth, we’ll fight propaganda with propaganda?  

Because it works... it worked on you Babe Ruth, like hundreds of others I have seen.

I’m not sure my time is best spent arguing this thing.  For what?  To give me tiny credence with OCTs who are never going to accept my findings anyhow.  On you go BR... yep... ACARS shows Flight 93 still in the air after the crash... pass it on...

Hmmm I’m still conflicted.

The thing is, we don’t need to spread this false **** to demonstrate to any reasonable person that the OCT is unproven at best, a show at worst, and contradicted in places, or that there were additional players at work than the official story tells.  Those with an open mind will be convinced without it, so there is no benefit, only the chance that this easily debunked rubbish will provide OCTs ammunition that will come back to bite us.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#1227    psyche101

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostQ24, on 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Hi psyche.  I won’t respond to most of your last posts because personally I think your reasoning and speculation to avoid certain facts is absurd (and will be noted so by intelligent readers), especially that continued reliance on the ‘cyberbabe’ newscaster in preference to the FBIS, BBC or Al Jazeera reports – it’s really tough to discuss with someone of such persuasion.

Hi Q

That is alright, it would not be the first proverbial white flag I have seen on this site. I understand that you have no argument with regards to the facts that show Al Jazeera reporters are killed often, and they do have personal involvement with Bin Laden, as he utilises that very network for his video releases. The evolution of that particular sentence was painfully obvious and your links only further supported my position. I personally find you wish to absolve the terrorists, perhaps for personal reasons, perhaps because of some blind Ground Zero Lounge mission I do not know, but your reluctance to adress what is an obvious alteration, and logic concerning the ability to influence a reporter is duly noted.
As is your cheap shot with the intelligent readers remark, which I would have through below you but like Stundie, you too have proven to be something other than I imagined. Less impressive to be honest. You are using arguments you chastise others for making, and in particular to your personal ideas of what a prison is below. You claim not to subscribe to hearsay, but as we can see, you do when it suits you.

View PostQ24, on 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

This was about Ali Mohammed, and with that you begin to understand Al Qaeda.  Even Mohammed’s own commanding officer in the U.S. army wanted him investigated and court-martialed, when this was denied leading him to conclude Mohammed was sponsored by the CIA.  Of course, you would know better.

I do not feel Al Qaeda deserves all that much understanding. Loose fluid group of fundmental religious kooks hellbent on killing everyone who does not agree of conform to them.
And no, it does not surprise me that the CIA would do something as stupid as give Ali chance after chance. I have already stated that I hold the CIA in very low regard, and continue to wonder how such a bunch of kooks manage to maintain funding, it really does bewilder me. They seem to think they are above the law, and some sort of super human group. The CIA is better known for it's perversion of justice and rights, and absolutely ridiculous programs since it;s inception. Right through to the men who stare at goats. That one person tried to point out to inherent danger in such a stupid notion does not surprise me at all. Niether does the CIA molly coddling this double agent, with some stupid false bravado believing themselves to be the ones who were actually benefiting.
No it does not help me understand Al Qaeda, are you saying you support Al Qaeda?

View PostQ24, on 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Except it seems when bin Laden talks about killing civilians (which you do not take in the context of reciprocation/collateral damage he intended by the way) and disparagement of America – then his word is the pinnacle of truth and evidence to you.

Bin Laden represents Jihad, Bin Laden is not Jihad, Jihad is much bigger than Bin Laden. And Jihad is a holy war, and Bin Laden declared war on America, so yes, and it stands to reason. All I believe from Bin Laden is when he is rejoicing and claiming victory for the killings he orchestrated, influenced, and inspired. Yes, he is a fundamentalist religious kook that wants the world to live under Shari'ah, so of course I will only believe him when  he  says he is ging to kill. I do not think for one second he would be honest about who he will kill, just that he will, because that is the sort of small minded religious hellbent fundamentalist that he is.

View PostQ24, on 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Actually the U.S. prosecution did need justification after Moussaoui was found innocent of 9/11 related charges due to lack of evidence – there was quite a furore in the media about it.  It’s a good job that ‘bin Laden’ came riding to the rescue within a couple of weeks to validate the prosecution failure and declare that Moussaoui had nothing to do with the 9/11 operation.

Bin Laden to the rescue??? So then you agree that Bin Laden hasa admitted responsibility for the 911 attacks, seeming as he said in that instance:

"had no connection at all with September 11... I am the one in charge of the 19 brothers and I never assigned brother Zacarias to be with them in that mission...

Which is very likely true, as the unstable Moussaoui had intended to make his own mark with his own mayhem, but he even failed flight school. The man is notably unstable, refusing a lawyer  and citing the Koran as his defence, and when he did that, to me he proved he was mentally unstable, and as you would know, the courts did have him assessed, yet somehow he managed to pass, perhaps so he could be incarcerated for life, as he now is. Had he received the death penalty, it would just be another case of the Middle East saying America killed a man who was not in his right mind, and made a party of it. This was the only recourse for this madman.

Even as he was led out of the courtroom, Moussaoui clapped his hands and said, "America, you lost... I won." but Judge Brinkema responded by telling him that he would "die with a whimper" and "never get a chance to speak again."


I think you might have just proven Skyeagle right.


View PostQ24, on 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yes there is, read this post again: -
http://www.unexplain...90#entry4240550

The compound was not in any normal town, but the Pakistan military district, only 1km from the elite military training academy and home to many retired military officers.

I don’t know where you are getting the claim regarding internet access (please not Annanova again?).  All reports I have read state there was no phone or internet connection.  The official explanation for this has been that bin Laden transported messages the old-fashioned way, by courier, to avoid electronic message intercepts.

The facts are this: -
  • a compound with security gates
  • and 12ft high walls, topped with barbed-wire
  • monitored by security cameras
  • no phone or internet connection
  • where the rubbish is burnt rather than left for collection
  • a courtyard for exercise
  • and armed guards
  • a building excluded from the official Pakistan census
Really think about each point - the comparison is clear to see; this is ideal match to features of a prison.

Look at the double-ended security corridor/gates: -

Posted Image


Now that of a prison: -

Posted Image


Lt Col Ralph Peters, whilst praising the U.S. operation: -

“I think the reason bin Laden stayed there so long was very straightforward - he was a prisoner in a gilded cage. The Pakistani ISI had him there, he wasn't free to go. They were in my view keeping him there until they needed him. So it was a gentle imprisonment.

I worked with the Pakistanis at least briefly in the 90s, I have followed them for a long time. And there is no way the Inter Services Intelligence Agency, the Pakistani CIA plus equivalent, didn't know where this guy was, they had to know. There is no doubt that the ISI knew he was there and helped him. It is my supposition that he wasn’t free to go, the deal was he wasn’t free to go and they protected him.”



Raelynn Hillhouse, an American security analyst with contacts in the intelligence services: -

“My sources tell me that the informant claimed that the Saudis were paying off the Pakistani military and intelligence (ISI) to essentially shelter and keep bin Laden under house arrest in Abbottabad, a city with such a high concentration of military that I'm told there's no equivalent in the US.”



Another security analyst, Juan Zarate: -

“One of the things that surprised me (in viewing the video) is, with bin Laden having been in this compound for about five, maybe six years, it's a little bit like he was under house arrest.  He was really a prisoner, in a sense, in this compound.  And so, what we may be looking at is a dimension of the prison that he was in for about five years there in Abbottabad.”



But typically in your blinkered way, there is ‘no evidence’ that bin Laden was incarcerated.  I guess you must like your fantasy/propaganda world, but not everyone is so content to remain in the dark.


Blinkered, you have kinda overshot yourself. I have personally been heavily involved in the construction of no less than 5 complete correctional centres. You are making all that up. Look at your actual picture of a correctional centrer. See the first gate? The second one is about 50 meters back from that. The fences are covered with razor wire from top to bottom with coils all the way along the bottom. TWO large walls, 50 meters apart, covered in wire. This plan does not change across countries not time. You can go to a facility a hundred years old, and see a very similar floor plan. What you have there is single walls with barber wire on top of them. That is exactly what representatives homes in unfriendly countries embassies look just like. It is not only designed to keep people out, but slow them down and keep them in a position where it is easy to shoot them. Flat roof with balconies, single walls, long narrow entrance, all designed for defence, not incarceration. You are completely wrong in your assessment, and this I do know from personal experience. I suspect the top level, near where you have Bin Laden bedroom being to have a strong room where Bin Laden could either hold out, or end his life in privacy. Your list of facts describes a strong house, in fact very much like one Foreign embassy I have personally worked, on, and the homes of the Australian Commissioner and other employees there. They even had armed guards at a very tall gate with rifles slung over their shoulders at homes as well as at the embassy. I bet Bin Laden's guards were behind the gates though to lessen suspicion.
I bet rubbish was burned rather than collected. Pakistan is a rather lawless place, Bin Ladens rubbish might be worth quite a bit to the right western bidder, depending on what it is.  I do not deny that he left Tora Bora with ease, and you and I know that Rumsfeld did that to avoid worse conflict, and the death of innocents on the **** border, which is also a very lawless place. After hiding in caves in the desert he did head to the border of Pakistan, but that is where your story ends. Your sources who says he was incarcerated even say Bin Laden had Kidney Disease, but he denied that himself, and what possible reason would he have to deny that?It has nothing to do with the conflict whatsoever. So no, you have not proven anything, as you are fond of saying, your information is incomplete. Bin Ladens wife, and Bin Laden himself both state you are wrong, and they have nothing to gain from that.

And you call me blinkered! LOL! Here you are convincing yourself that you have the right parameters for a prison, and I have built almost half a dozen of the bloody things from the ground up. You are dead wrong I am afraid. One thing for sure, I know you are not an architect ;)


Crikey, here is a pic of the Swiss Ambassadors house, according to your requirements, its can be regarded a prison too.

Posted Image



Edited by psyche101, 08 March 2013 - 08:58 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1228    psyche101

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 07 March 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Psyche

Wally did not have to deal with the grief of all those families--he never even met them.  They were names on a list to him, a list of names provided by the FBI, attached to tissue samples or DNA samples provided him by the FBI.

Being an honest man and small town funeral director, he accidentally spilled the beans to the media, reporting the simple truth--they found no human bodies, no baggage, nothing resembling the scene one would expect where a  half loaded 757 had just crashed.

Shortly after he spilled the beans, and after the overhead news helicopters corroborated the story--no airplane--the feds showed up on site.  Realizing what had happened, they made a bad situation tolerable.  They asked Wally if he could be a team player.  Who tells the FBI 'no' in a situation like that?  Nobody.

He agreed to be a team player, and eventually issued an amended statement about what they had seen.  The feds set him up in a temporary morgue about 10 miles away on the other side of the county.  The feds designated a new site of "the crash", borrowed equipment from a local heavy equipment operator, roped off the "scene of the crime", and would let nobody see it.

Wally was subsequently provided samples of human remains, identified by the feds.  Wally signed off on the death certificates for the State Of Pennsylvania.

Years later in an amiable interview, Wally and other locals told Bollyn the story.  There was no Boeing there that day.

That is confirmed by ACARS data showing the tail number assigned as UA93 was still transmitting from Illinois somewhere, 30 minutes after the supposed crash in PA.


So it is with a calm, practiced voice that Miller speaks whenever he escorts grieving family members, as he has again and again and again, up the muddy hillock that overlooks the spot where Flight 93 came to earth. Here on this mound and elsewhere, in hundreds of face-to-face conversations and on the telephone, Miller explains to families from New Jersey to Berkeley to Japan to Germany the grisly calculus of what happened to their loved ones: The Boeing 757 still heavily laden with jet fuel slammed at about 575 mph almost straight down into a rolling patch of grassy land that had long ago been strip-mined for coal. The impact spewed a fireball of horrific force across hundreds of acres of towering hemlocks and other trees, setting many ablaze. The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground of grassy land that had long ago been strip-mined for coal. The impact spewed a fireball of horrific force across hundreds of acres of towering hemlocks and other trees, setting many ablaze. The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground.

As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.

So the grieving families have formed a unique bond with the people who live near the crash site. Their goal is for the nation and the world to always remember that there was a single uplifting moment in one of the most crushing days ever for the American spirit. They want to build a fitting national monument at the crash site to commemorate that in the skies of Pennsylvania, over the county of Somerset, in the township of Stonycreek, near the borough of Shanksville, a group of desperate, brave Americans gave their lives in the war against 21st-century terror.

Immediately after the crash, the seeming absence of human remains led the mind of coroner Wally Miller to a surreal fantasy: that Flight 93 had somehow stopped in mid-flight and discharged all of its passengers before crashing. "There was just nothing visible," he says. "It was the strangest feeling." It would be nearly an hour before Miller came upon his first trace of a body part. The emotionally wrenching impact of what happened to the bodies caused Miller to resolve to seek out and talk personally to every one of the victims' families.

He did not think he was prepared for an event of this magnitude.


LINK

He states the he found remains after searching for an hour. He was not provided with sich a small amount nor does  he indicate such at any time that is a ridiculous assumption. Are you trying to say the Government covered this up, but did not think get the wreckage right? That's quite a claim.
I just do not believe the FBI "got to him" he was amazed yes, this is where the truthers deviate from what actually happened and make things up. Wally did not say there was no Boeing that day, not at all, he got angry at Bollyn, he did not subscribe to his coldhearted nonsense that he uses to sell book bassed on shock value. Bollyn even says he got angry at him, as I posted, but smoothed the claim over as if it was not to be considered. The only people lying here are the "truthers".
No wreckage? I beg to differ. Due to the impact, much of it was buried.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


But Sky already posted some of these, thanks Sky. Good call, and same on the ACARS.


Not confirmed by ACARS, not sure why you feel that is definite. You ask above, what solid object? That would be the ground. It's pretty solid. I do not think I need to delve into this claim. Sky and Q have already demolished it.

Edited by psyche101, 08 March 2013 - 09:38 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#1229    skyeagle409

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 08 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

So it is with a calm, practiced voice that Miller speaks whenever he escorts grieving family members, as he has again and again and again, up the muddy hillock that overlooks the spot where Flight 93 came to earth. Here on this mound and elsewhere, in hundreds of face-to-face conversations and on the telephone, Miller explains to families from New Jersey to Berkeley to Japan to Germany the grisly calculus of what happened to their loved ones: The Boeing 757 still heavily laden with jet fuel slammed at about 575 mph almost straight down into a rolling patch of grassy land that had long ago been strip-mined for coal. The impact spewed a fireball of horrific force across hundreds of acres of towering hemlocks and other trees, setting many ablaze. The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground of grassy land that had long ago been strip-mined for coal. The impact spewed a fireball of horrific force across hundreds of acres of towering hemlocks and other trees, setting many ablaze. The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground.

As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.

So the grieving families have formed a unique bond with the people who live near the crash site. Their goal is for the nation and the world to always remember that there was a single uplifting moment in one of the most crushing days ever for the American spirit. They want to build a fitting national monument at the crash site to commemorate that in the skies of Pennsylvania, over the county of Somerset, in the township of Stonycreek, near the borough of Shanksville, a group of desperate, brave Americans gave their lives in the war against 21st-century terror.

Immediately after the crash, the seeming absence of human remains led the mind of coroner Wally Miller to a surreal fantasy: that Flight 93 had somehow stopped in mid-flight and discharged all of its passengers before crashing. "There was just nothing visible," he says. "It was the strangest feeling." It would be nearly an hour before Miller came upon his first trace of a body part. The emotionally wrenching impact of what happened to the bodies caused Miller to resolve to seek out and talk personally to every one of the victims' families.

He did not think he was prepared for an event of this magnitude.


LINK

He states the he found remains after searching for an hour. He was not provided with sich a small amount nor does  he indicate such at any time that is a ridiculous assumption. Are you trying to say the Government covered this up, but did not think get the wreckage right? That's quite a claim.
I just do not believe the FBI "got to him" he was amazed yes, this is where the truthers deviate from what actually happened and make things up. Wally did not say there was no Boeing that day, not at all, he got angry at Bollyn, he did not subscribe to his coldhearted nonsense that he uses to sell book bassed on shock value. Bollyn even says he got angry at him, as I posted, but smoothed the claim over as if it was not to be considered. The only people lying here are the "truthers".
No wreckage? I beg to differ. Due to the impact, much of it was buried.

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


But Sky already posted some of these, thanks Sky. Good call, and same on the ACARS.


Not confirmed by ACARS, not sure why you feel that is definite. You ask above, what solid object? That would be the ground. It's pretty solid. I do not think I need to delve into this claim. Sky and Q have already demolished it.

Thanks!! It is amazing that BR continues to claim there was no evidence of a Boeing at the Shanksville crash site and yet there are pieces from the B-757 in the colors of United Airlines. You can even count the hi-lock fasteners on the wreckage.

Edited by skyeagle409, 08 March 2013 - 09:48 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1230    Q24

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostStundie, on 07 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Well I can't comment on truthers seeing as I do not know any personally. Other than a few I have spoke to on forums and the ones I've dealt with via email, they all come across as nice people, even the CIT guys who are often labelled and name called.

I’m not sure about those ‘nice’ CIT guys who delete posts and ban from their forum members who disagree with and can discredit their crackpot Pentagon flyover theory.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.




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