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The Girl Scout Camp Murders

girl scout murder oklahoma

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#211    regi

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:07 PM

I don't recall reading anywhere about signs of a struggle at the discovery site.
I think that's something that could be up for interpretation, mainly because that site was possibly returned to as many as three times whether considering one perp or not.

Edited by regi, 21 November 2012 - 12:26 PM.


#212    Cobalt60

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:57 PM

it may seem like it for the present, but nobody nobody gets away with anything...even if we never actually find out how the doer of the deed gets it...after all, remember how the movie "The Lovely Bones" ended? since this seems the last  entry, someone reply; let me know you read this.


#213    Taun

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

I agree that generally speaking in the long term no one gets away with anything this horrible... However, finding the perp and making sure they 'don't get away with it' sooner rather than later is important to many people...

Plus it's a very frustrating mystery, and just like a bad itch... you can't resist scratching sometimes...

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#214    justnotsosure

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:42 PM

I know I am probably going to be ridiculed for my thinking, but I am just not so sure about Hart being the murderer. When first starting to read about this my mind was made up. But the further I go into it some things just don't add up. Yes, he probably had been at the camp, and stole things from the camp. But, he was on the run..surviving. I have read from a few different articles that his previous lawyer said that Hart turned into something different that made him seem almost animalistic ..especially when he drank. But, if he was in this state when he did this it would have been a spur of the moment thing not premeditated like writing a note on a box lid. Also, there were SO many people in this area that knew he was around there, so how easy would it be to point the blame to him..if there was one witness that saw him leaving the cave then who is to say that someone else didn't see him leave and go and put the message. And as for the semen found on the victim, well I found a newspaper article from 1977 when he was named a fugitive in  the tulsa library that Hart underwent a steriliazation operation and that is why no semen was found on his previous rape victims. There is more to my thinking, but I was just wanting to see your opinion on these few thoughts. And, I'm not saying that Hart wasn't a evil/messed up man, but I'm just not sure on this actual crime


#215    Taun

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:26 PM

I don't think anyone will ridicule you for that justnotsure...  I think that the evidence (or rather the lack of evidence) is pretty strong that Hart at the very least did not do it alone... Perhaps if the investigators had done a more thorough, professional job we would be closer to finding the perps...

I greatly fear that this case is unsolvable today, and we will never know the truth...

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#216    dontworryaboutit

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:56 AM

Firstly i must say you guys have done a fine job of investigating this case. i think if you were the detectives in charge you would have caught the guy(s) by know lol.

as i accidently erased my first(very lengthy...) attempt of a post ill make this once shorter

how i see the crime it must have been a two person job that had been planned out. i beleive the perps first entered the camp and creeped around gathering info on the surroundings and positions of counsellers in the camp. from around 12-2 based on the sketchy timeline of the noises after this i think they selected there target waited till everyone had settled in (they must have know some people where up looking around with flashlights being shone at them) at around 3 they would have entered the tent bludgeoning the first two girls simultaneously (1 per girl) then quickly subdued the other (i really do not think one person would have time to hit one girl at a time and then grab the third girl as im sure the smack needed to kill someone in one blow would probably make a hell of a sound) correct me if im wrong but was the girl found outside her sleeping bag the one strangled and also gaged if she was i believe the crooks did not kill her in the tent but instead attempted to clean up the mess ( one person cleaning one holding the still alive girl) stuffed the two dead girl in the sleeping bag and then try to leave one person escorting the girl the other carrying the two girls (or what i think is more likely of taking two trips even though young that would still be alot of dead weight for one person)

from your maps given i believe the girl was lead to the disposal site where i think they molested here and strangled her. i think the plan may have been to kidnap her (only reason i could think not to kill her in the tents).
the overall crime seemed well planned (the first day of camp) and very lucky (the storm covering lots of sounds as well as washing away evidence) however the ending disposal site seems very unorganized very frantic and hurried (they had time to clean the tent but not to take the flashlight) i think the consular interrupted the perps and they finished the job and let real quick

one thing about the flashlight being left i read one post that it may have been (from the sounds of it anyway) inserted into of the girls making me think he could have been in the middle of doing that when they heard someone approaching .  

that is my personal take on the crime ( i left loads out after i deleted my first attempted post) and i have misread and  mixed up info but the very shotty police work and very vague confusing details make this one hell of a case


#217    Taun

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:47 AM

Thanks for the post dontworry...  I agree that two perps actively involved in the murders is most likely what actually happened... and the thefts were most likely caused by another person not directly connected to the crime....

The oldest girl - Doris Milner - was the only one found outside her sleeping bag - in fact she was the first one discovered, the other two not noticed because they were so small and fully inside the bags....  Two perps attacking at once would definitely be the quickest and quietest way to do it...

If I understand your line about the flashlight, it seems as though you were under the impression that the flashlight may have been used 'sexually' on the girls...  I seriously don't think so as it was a large box type flashlight... as you can see in this photo: The flashlight is between the lowest end of the two right most sleeping bags....

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#218    regi

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:17 PM

Taun, there was another flashlight. In the doc., the OSBI agent described a flashlight between Farmer's legs, and his comment was that it was there as though to be handy in case she needed it.
I found that to be an odd remark coming from an investigator, and I don't know if that's what he actually thought as to the reason it was there.
A poster who claimed to be Wilhite (on the yuku board) stated that objects were used for penetration. (That was the basis for her belief that authorities thought a female could be involved, and why she felt authorities leaned hard on her.
Now, I've never seen that info. stated elsewhere, but I think a flashlight presented in the manner described by the agent could lend to such speculation, and it's also likely that the ME offered that finding to authorities.

I think the perp(s) spent considerable time in the tent because two of the children were bound which suggests that at least two children were alive for a certain period of time (of course, because there's no reason to bound anyone not alive.)
Milner was strangled... which is very, very common in sexual assault cases. It doesn't make sense to me that she would be taken out of the tent for a sexual assault (or further assault), so for that and other reasons, I think she was also killed in the tent.


#219    regi

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

View Postdontworryaboutit, on 16 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Firstly i must say you guys have done a fine job of investigating this case. i think if you were the detectives in charge you would have caught the guy(s) by know lol.

Ha! Sometimes I wonder! Well, I wish someone in charge would investigate....
Your thoughts on the case are appreciated, also, and thanks for posting.

I don't think the discovery site was a disposal site primarily because there was no reason for a disposal site; it was risky and a lot of effort to transport, and the flashlight was left, the tape was there, and the location was a fork in the road, on the side of the road.
Those things together appear to me as though the intention was to transport to somewhere specific other than where they were found, and that that intention was somehow- for some reason, interrupted.


#220    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:18 PM

got to page 7 , gotta get some sleep,  SEROIUSLY  interested in this story and will pickup on it tomorrow, all i can say is  WOW i used to be a Girl guide leader in training ( im 22, i did it when i was about 17 - 20 years old and im in the UK) you would NEVER get away with the staffing situation now..

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#221    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:39 AM

one thing to add... how long was the camp for overnight? a week? the weekend? and how long had the camp been in session?

did it give time ad oppertuities for them to be watched and observed? maybe they were observed at pervious camps?

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#222    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:03 AM

View Postregi, on 08 November 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Re: apparent lack of blood on those two sleeping bags...that's another interesting aspect of the crime scene.
I've read that blood coagulates about 30-60 minutes after death, so maybe the girls weren't in their sleeping bags when they were killed.
We know there was blood splatter on the tent walls/ceiling (I'm not sure precisely where and it's of course important to know) but there was apparently enough blood on the floor to wipe up...

I think the perp "did what he did" to the victims while he was in that tent.
It was considered the most isolated tent, so why would a perp take a victim out and away from what had been the most secluded location?
I think the OSBI misinterpreted this part of the scene.
It's looks to me like the perp was in a hurry...that after he killed Milner, he took only enough time to wipe the floor.
I think he planned to use the bag later, or he wouldn't have taken it.

everyone keeps mentioning blood, but (obviously) blood only occours when the skin is broken , blunt force does not cause bleeding, there are no sharp edges to break the skin, thus no blood on the sleeping bags???????? or am i missing something

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#223    Taun

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostCuriousLittleOne, on 01 April 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

one thing to add... how long was the camp for overnight? a week? the weekend? and how long had the camp been in session?

did it give time ad oppertuities for them to be watched and observed? maybe they were observed at pervious camps?

Hi and welcome to the thread/UM...

The camp (most scout camps in the US) are for either a full week or two weeks at a time... Scout troops will sometimes camp out for a weekend - sort of training for the long summer camps - but this was their annual summer camp and was for either one or two full weeks... This was the first group of girls at the camp for that year... Some of the counselors had been there for a couple days, but this was the girls first night there ...


#224    Taun

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostCuriousLittleOne, on 01 April 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

everyone keeps mentioning blood, but (obviously) blood only occours when the skin is broken , blunt force does not cause bleeding, there are no sharp edges to break the skin, thus no blood on the sleeping bags???????? or am i missing something

These were small children, and they were brutally bludgeoned with a heavy object by a full grown adult.. so yes a heavy enough object could break the skin... Just look at professional fighters... often the blows will break open the skin, and they are hardened and "pre-beaten" adults... these were very young girls ...


#225    CuriousLittleOne

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

the "penetration" torch, was it the one that was covered so it gave off a dimmer light that was possibly used during the night when the councler spotted a light????

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