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Atlantis is a reality find out where here


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#1546    aquatus1

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:10 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 April 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

How many archaeologists and historians have dived underwater at Dwarka, Mahabalipuram,Off the coast of Cuba, Yonaguni.

How many?  Geez...to my recollection, Dwarka has had about eight official expeditions, not counting the current university group over there.  I think the first two were mostly geologists, but pretty much all the ones after that were archeological studies, so I would guesstimate, maybe a dozen archeologists, over the last three decades?  Somewhere in that general area?  Depends on which part of the site is accesible, mostly.

Mahabalipuram, being a World Heritage site and visited fairly regularly by tourists, has archeologists working regularly, so over a dozen, easily.  The Archaeological Society of India (I forget the official name) has been pushing it lately, after the 2004 tsunami uncovered some incredible new structures.

Yonaguni has been pretty much decisively shown to be a natural formation, which doesn't make it any less cool, but right now, tensions in that area are a bit high, what with China making noises over the Senkaku Islands and all.

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Why are these sites being practically ignored.

:unsure:

How are you defining "ignored"?

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We have Graham Hancock self financing and diving in these spots,and one of the few people who publicised these sites. Where was the mainstream? where are the people from the stream itself?

Publishing actual research on it.  You won't find that in the Fiction section of the bookstore, however.  You will have to go to the Science section.  Or the travel section, in the case of Mahabalipuram.

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In the absence of mainstream archaeologists studying these sites,you will have to rely on outsiders for information.

Harsh...

Don't you think, prior to assuming that no academic has ever investigated something, it is worth spending a few minutes on Google to see if any academic has...well, investigated something?

It's like you want science to be the bad guy.


#1547    aquatus1

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 April 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Ya but at the same time have enough of an Ego to honour a proposition after you have made it as it is bad for your self image to decline after extending a invitation.

:huh:

Okay, first off, Ego and Honor are two seperate things.

Second, if you are referring to my offer to teach you about science, it is definitely still on, and it will not be anything quick.  You do understanding that I do not post solely for you.  I can't be everywhere at once (see, that's ego).


#1548    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:14 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 05 April 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

How many?  Geez...to my recollection, Dwarka has had about eight official expeditions, not counting the current university group over there.  I think the first two were mostly geologists, but pretty much all the ones after that were archeological studies, so I would guesstimate, maybe a dozen archeologists, over the last three decades?  Somewhere in that general area?  Depends on which part of the site is accesible, mostly.

Mahabalipuram, being a World Heritage site and visited fairly regularly by tourists, has archeologists working regularly, so over a dozen, easily.  The Archaeological Society of India (I forget the official name) has been pushing it lately, after the 2004 tsunami uncovered some incredible new structures.

Yonaguni has been pretty much decisively shown to be a natural formation, which doesn't make it any less cool, but right now, tensions in that area are a bit high, what with China making noises over the Senkaku Islands and all.



:unsure:

How are you defining "ignored"?



Publishing actual research on it.  You won't find that in the Fiction section of the bookstore, however.  You will have to go to the Science section.  Or the travel section, in the case of Mahabalipuram.



Harsh...

Don't you think, prior to assuming that no academic has ever investigated something, it is worth spending a few minutes on Google to see if any academic has...well, investigated something?

It's like you want science to be the bad guy.
Most of the things on google related to these sites are opinions of these so called scholars based on miniscule amount of data collected regarding these sites. You understand right that if the structures at majority of these sites are recognized as man-made will then lead us to ancient lost civilizations.


#1549    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 05 April 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

:huh:

Okay, first off, Ego and Honor are two seperate things.

Second, if you are referring to my offer to teach you about science, it is definitely still on, and it will not be anything quick.  You do understanding that I do not post solely for you.  I can't be everywhere at once (see, that's ego).
Ego is not attitude....it is self image,without having a healthy ego a person cannot be happy.
Honouring your commitments means fulfilling them.....was not talking about honour as an abstract concept.
Was more eager to teach you science and not the other way round. (now thats called 'attitude') :yes:


#1550    aquatus1

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 April 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Most of the things on google related to these sites are opinions of these so called scholars based on miniscule amount of data collected regarding these sites.

Harsh...come on.  Don't pretend you have the slightest idea how much data has been collected by these people.

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You understand right that if the structures at majority of these sites are recognized as man-made will then lead us to ancient lost civilizations.

There is nothing at these sites that we don't see at other sites, all around the world, throughout all of time.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 05 April 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Ego is not attitude....

Nope.  Ego influences attitude.

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it is self image,without having a healthy ego a person cannot be happy.

Yep.  Alternatively, an unhealthy ego leads people to boost themselves by making themselves feel bigger.

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Honouring your commitments means fulfilling them.....

Yep.  It doesn't mean being at your beck and call.

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was not talking about honour as an abstract concept.

Good.  Honor isn't an abstract concept.

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Was more eager to teach you science and not the other way round. (now thats called 'attitude') :yes:

Indeed it is!

It's also wrong, but we'll hash that out in the other thread.  I think we've derailed this one long enough.


#1551    Proclus

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 05 April 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

John Luce is a classicist, not a historian, and certainly not an archeologist.  He didn't look for Atlantis, but merely theorized that Atlantis was based on the Minoan civilization.  Similarly, Eberhard Zanger, who was actually an geologist, wasn't looking for Atlantis either, but theorized that it was based on the then-legend of Troy.  Papamarinopoulos is a physicist, and he doesn't so much search for Atlantis, rather he has held two symposiums on it and published the discussions in a book.  Thorwald Franke...well, he's an IT guy and a big fan of Atlantis, as per his website.

Can't you see that you create principally impossible criteria?

Archaeologists by nature cannot talk of Atlantis (at least they should not) and not of Troy etc.,
because ... it is a question of interpretation whether this heap of rubble or that heap was Troy or Atlantis, etc.
And this is not the job of archaeologists.
By the way: Zangger is "geoarchaeologist", not geologist.
When it comes to interpretation then classicists are the first ones.
Why do you exclude them? I don't get it. Really. This exclusion is utter nonsense.
You really have to explain this thoroughly if you want to stay with this exclusion.
Left are the historians. They already have interpretations for all known cultures.
The key idea of all academicians in favour of existence is: Atlantis was one of the known cultures.
So the historians have no urge to say of any of these cultures that it was Atlantis. They just leave this to the classicists.

The classicists are the ones who have to act first.
Then the historians.
Then the archaeologists.

Zangger and Luce: Why did they not dig for Atlantis?
Because there is no need for digging! There is a need for interpretation!

(The "IT guy" Franke: Even Atlantis skeptical classicists said of his books that they are "worth reading". Did they ever say anything similar on any book of an Atlantis searcher?)

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#1552    Ancient-Explorer

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 05 April 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

:huh:

Okay, first off, Ego and Honor are two seperate things.

Second, if you are referring to my offer to teach you about science, it is definitely still on, and it will not be anything quick.  You do understanding that I do not post solely for you.  I can't be everywhere at once (see, that's ego).

To teach Science you have to be a scientist and not a 'Google Search user', as it seems that you are... If I judge from the number of your posts in this forum .... oh boy ... you could have studied at a University real science if you have used your time wisely. But then I know your reply ... No more comments ...

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My favourite sites: Ancient-Origins.net, Evolution News, Cosmos Magazine

"Only if the evidence is allowed to speak for itself will we ever learn the truth about the mysterious origins of man"

#1553    Ancient-Explorer

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

On the topic that a few have raised here that information cannot be hidden, I would like to mention that NO information goes public unless it is 'safe' which means:
1) it will be presented in a way that won't created major social upheaval (that is in the case of religious topics)
2) it won't go against the benefits of very large organizations profit or non-profit
3) it won't go against major lobbies (e.g. archaeologists, historians etc.)
One such recent example is the Dead Sea Scrolls. only 20% was published when they were found and the rest 80% was published after 35 years. Similar it was with the Gospel of Judas.
All excavations for example that take place in Mesopotamia (the cradle of the Civilization according to archaeologists) are under tight control and nothing comes out without permission and what becomes public is less than 2%, according to the (Israel archaeological society of which I am member).

Edited by Ancient-Explorer, 07 April 2013 - 07:19 AM.

John S -
My favourite sites: Ancient-Origins.net, Evolution News, Cosmos Magazine

"Only if the evidence is allowed to speak for itself will we ever learn the truth about the mysterious origins of man"

#1554    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:35 AM

Sometimes finds stay hidden for the simple reason the published papers are not written in English :

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=245911


#1555    aquatus1

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:17 AM

View PostProclus, on 06 April 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Can't you see that you create principally impossible criteria?

Me?

Are you under the impression that I was the one who claimed that there were archeologists and historians actively searching for Atlantis?

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Archaeologists by nature cannot talk of Atlantis (at least they should not) and not of Troy etc.,
because ... it is a question of interpretation whether this heap of rubble or that heap was Troy or Atlantis, etc.

It's more a question of how much support the interpretation has.  There is nothing in the nature of an archeologist that prevents him from even speculating on a particular civilization without appropriate support, save his own sense.

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And this is not the job of archaeologists.
By the way: Zangger is "geoarchaeologist", not geologist.

Huh.  Had to look that up.  Looks like it may one day become an very interesting and useful addition to the realm of research.

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When it comes to interpretation then classicists are the first ones.

Agreed.

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Why do you exclude them? I don't get it. Really. This exclusion is utter nonsense.

I excluded them because they did not meet the parameters set by Ancient-Explorer.

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You really have to explain this thoroughly if you want to stay with this exclusion.

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.  There a a million and one classicists out there, and a similar amount of opinions and interpretations of Atlantis.  However, the amount of them who are actively seeking the city of Atlantis?  Not too many.

Which, of course, makes perfect sense.  After all, neither archeaology nor history (necessarily) are the fields of a classicist.  A classicist is about art, aesthetics, poetry and prose.  It is about how a culture is influenced by its artists and philosophers.  It is about trying to get into the mind of the author and determine what he was thinking and how it correlates to what he was saying.  It is, in essence, intellectual voyeurism.

My question to you would be...Why would you include them in an archaeological study to begin with?

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Left are the historians. They already have interpretations for all known cultures.

And more keep popping up every day.

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The key idea of all academicians in favour of existence is: Atlantis was one of the known cultures.

Not sure I understand what you are saying here.  Atlantis wasn't considered any more a culture than the cave of shadows was considered a cave until around 1880-90, or so, when some author decided to do a remake of the original story, this time with the Atlanteans as super advanced and the source of all other civilizations.  Then it hit the snooze button again for almost a hundred years, when Edgar Cayce began mumbling about it in his sleep, and all the Cayceites spread the word.  The mythical Atlantis that never existed, that of a highly advanced, super-rich, peaceful, spiritual, prototype culture (heck, as anything other than a metaphor) from which all others form is a relatviely new invention.

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So the historians have no urge to say of any of these cultures that it was Atlantis. They just leave this to the classicists.

Should tell you something, right there.

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The classicists are the ones who have to act first.
Then the historians.
Then the archaeologists.

Not counting the times when the people in the field (gasp!) actually made a discovery.  I know, I know, it is hard for us in the internet generation to attribute knowledge to anything other than Interpretive Googleing, but yeah, the hard sciences do actually have a pretty good history of research without involving the classicists.

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Zangger and Luce: Why did they not dig for Atlantis?
Because there is no need for digging! There is a need for interpretation!

Assuming one of the current sites is actually Atlantis, of course.

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(The "IT guy" Franke: Even Atlantis skeptical classicists said of his books that they are "worth reading". Did they ever say anything similar on any book of an Atlantis searcher?)

I doubt it.  Few scientists write books designed for casual consumption; the ones who do are generally retired from the field or have the time and power to do so.  I can't imagine an archeological study of the actual, honest-to-goodness site of Atlantis would be anywhere near as interesting as the Hollywood version of it.

The packaging, however, isn't what defines the quality of what is inside.

In all cases, please correct your assumption that I am looking for archeologists or historians actively seeking Atlantis.  What I am doing is calling Ancient-Explorer out on his repeated claim that there is, somewhere out there, a significant contingent of these two types of academics who are out there, putting their theories on the line, advocating Atlantis as real.  Not only do I believe there isn't a significant contingent, I have yet to be presented with any.


#1556    Proclus

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 09:42 AM

Aquatus1, let me first express thanks for your answers, we do not disagree on all and everthing, that is nice!

View Postaquatus1, on 07 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

After all, neither archeaology nor history (necessarily) are the fields of a classicist.  A classicist is about art, aesthetics, poetry and prose.  It is about how a culture is influenced by its artists and philosophers.  It is about trying to get into the mind of the author and determine what he was thinking and how it correlates to what he was saying.  It is, in essence, intellectual voyeurism.

My question to you would be...Why would you include them in an archaeological study to begin with?

Pretty easy! Because Plato was a philosopher! Who wants to find Atlantis first has to show that it's not like the cave of shadows ... and this you do not by digging.

And secondly, you have to get (reasonable) hints for the place. This, too, is not done by digging, only by "digging" in texts (This time not only Plato because Plato can only be interpeted in the context of his time).

View Postaquatus1, on 07 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

Not sure I understand what you are saying here.  Atlantis wasn't considered any more a culture than the cave of shadows was considered a cave until around 1880-90, or so,

Well, not true, it was a question in all times. Academicians started to deny Atlantis in clear majority around 1800, I guess.

View Postaquatus1, on 07 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

I doubt it.  Few scientists write books designed for casual consumption; the ones who do are generally retired from the field or have the time and power to do so.  I can't imagine an archeological study of the actual, honest-to-goodness site of Atlantis would be anywhere near as interesting as the Hollywood version of it.

A book for "casual consumption" would never receive a "worth reading" ... I agree on your Hollywood statement.
Find the "worth reading" statement in footnote number 10. The book is available in German only, so there is no danger to make sales promotion here :-)

View Postaquatus1, on 07 April 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

In all cases, please correct your assumption that I am looking for archeologists or historians actively seeking Atlantis.  What I am doing is calling Ancient-Explorer out on his repeated claim that there is ...

The claim of Ancient-Explorer is exaggerated, of course. With the method of historical criticism it becomes clear that Atlantis cannot be like that - if it existed.

One of the biggest mistakes of Atlantis searchers is, that they take Plato's text like the word of god and not like a human being's text who was caught in the thought of his time.

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#1557    Ancient-Explorer

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Sometimes finds stay hidden for the simple reason the published papers are not written in English :

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=245911
This could be the case for unimportant discoveries. Have a look a the story of the dead sea scrolls as an example and you will see what I mean.
What I mentioned for Israel is not unfortunately something that could know since you are not related to the topic, but maybe if you do a search on Google you will find something. But again those discoveries are for the few at the moment ... and in some ways I agree that it should be like this. Otherwise everyone unrelated would have a opinion as you do now ....

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"Only if the evidence is allowed to speak for itself will we ever learn the truth about the mysterious origins of man"

#1558    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

View PostAncient-Explorer, on 07 April 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

This could be the case for unimportant discoveries. Have a look a the story of the dead sea scrolls as an example and you will see what I mean.
What I mentioned for Israel is not unfortunately something that could know since you are not related to the topic, but maybe if you do a search on Google you will find something. But again those discoveries are for the few at the moment ... and in some ways I agree that it should be like this. Otherwise everyone unrelated would have a opinion as you do now ....

What I linked to is not considered to be "unimportant". It's in fact a revolutionary find, but for decades unknown outside the Soviet Union for the reason mentioned.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 April 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#1559    zoser

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:13 PM

This guy really has done his homework.

Most convincing theory yet imho.

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/

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#1560    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:33 PM

View Postzoser, on 07 April 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

This guy really has done his homework.

Most convincing theory yet imho.

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/

Well, aside from the fact that Atlantis sank in front of the Strait of Gibraltar.

His Bolivian high plateau is just one of the ten suggested locations of Atlantis.





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