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War is not inevitable


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#46    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:11 AM

View PostYamato, on 12 December 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Humanity isn't evil either, only certain individuals. Tyranny and liberty are locked in perpetual conflict.   Move too far to either fringe and catastrophe can develop.   That said, I would prefer to err on the side of liberty when considering the necessity of government.  History is my guide in having that preference.

Massive abuse of power in the hands of the few and the powerful (kings and conquerors) are a menace to our capacity to live free.   I'll side with the freedom fighters who want to free people for their own good, over the tyrants who want to control people for their own good.
I disagree with this.  Even the best person has a nature apt to doing wrong.  Not all people are evil, of course, but enough have so little restraint that warfare is inevitable.  The M.E. Palestinian Israeli conflict is a perfect example.  The numbers of individuals on either side who are compelled to kill are small.  But the rest of the populations are roused up by this and the conflict cannot die.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#47    DieChecker

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:57 AM

View Postand then, on 13 December 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

I disagree with this.  Even the best person has a nature apt to doing wrong.  Not all people are evil, of course, but enough have so little restraint that warfare is inevitable.  The M.E. Palestinian Israeli conflict is a perfect example.  The numbers of individuals on either side who are compelled to kill are small.  But the rest of the populations are roused up by this and the conflict cannot die.
Depends on what you call Evil. Are kids that swipe candy from the bulk food section evil? They are stealing... theives, right? I think there is a lot of inbetween area... Grey area... between Pure Good and Total Evil.

Even murders, like the kid that just shot up the Portland mall yesterday, are probably not evil, they are simply stupid and confused and emotionally crazed. True evil is relatively rare, in my Honest opinon.

I would agree though that enough exist and enough have power that war will always exist.

Edited by DieChecker, 13 December 2012 - 03:58 AM.

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#48    Yamato

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:00 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 13 December 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Depends on what you call Evil. Are kids that swipe candy from the bulk food section evil? They are stealing... theives, right? I think there is a lot of inbetween area... Grey area... between Pure Good and Total Evil.

Even murders, like the kid that just shot up the Portland mall yesterday, are probably not evil, they are simply stupid and confused and emotionally crazed. True evil is relatively rare, in my Honest opinon.

I would agree though that enough exist and enough have power that war will always exist.
Only if that power is vested in government.  

There's an inherent conflict of interest in opposing war and supporting the source of war (government) at the same time.    Evil is a neutral entity in this discussion neither with us or against us when the essence of warfare can transcend mere evil, when some wars are fought in self defense or for self preservation that isn't evil.   Some people are evil and start wars.  But they must do this with centralized organized governing power.   From a practical standpoint, civil action keeping government power in check is the best way to prevent war.  If all of humanity did this, war would be done and over with.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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#49    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:17 AM

You have to realise that some people have a fundamental belief in the concept of original sin so have a predisposition to believe in evil as an external force drawing us to do wrong. Personally I think thats BS.

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#50    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:33 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 13 December 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Depends on what you call Evil. Are kids that swipe candy from the bulk food section evil? They are stealing... theives, right? I think there is a lot of inbetween area... Grey area... between Pure Good and Total Evil.

Even murders, like the kid that just shot up the Portland mall yesterday, are probably not evil, they are simply stupid and confused and emotionally crazed. True evil is relatively rare, in my Honest opinon.

I would agree though that enough exist and enough have power that war will always exist.
Yes, I make a distinction between real evil and the garden variety of the rest of us that "just want our own way" but it only takes a few when the rest of us can't or won't stand against them.  
And BC:  I think the inherent nature of mankind to do wrong instead of right has been proven so thoroughly over our history that to deny it's reality is preposterous.  Those who do are, IMO, either in denial or they want to assign some, as you put it -"external" motivator to it.  I believe it comes from within us.  Ask anyone who's watched a child in their "terrible twos".  Self will run riot is what it's about.

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#51    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

View Postand then, on 13 December 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yes, I make a distinction between real evil and the garden variety of the rest of us that "just want our own way" but it only takes a few when the rest of us can't or won't stand against them.  
And BC:  I think the inherent nature of mankind to do wrong instead of right has been proven so thoroughly over our history that to deny it's reality is preposterous.  Those who do are, IMO, either in denial or they want to assign some, as you put it -"external" motivator to it.  I believe it comes from within us.  Ask anyone who's watched a child in their "terrible twos".  Self will run riot is what it's about.
Behaviour is a response to conditioning, circumstances and certain biological imperatives. It is not a response to some magical force which compells us to behave in certain ways. There is no devil tempting us and drawing us execorably to do wrong. If we chose to live in a more equitable world the circumstances which make people wrong others would diminish - though not disappear.

A belief in original sin allows people to deny personal responsibility for the wrongs they do to others - the "now look what you made me do syndrome". I have seen the corrosive effect it has on people of a religious belief who refuse to face up to the personal flaws they have and the hurts they cause to others, preferring to leave it up to God to judge their behaviour.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#52    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 December 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

Behaviour is a response to conditioning, circumstances and certain biological imperatives. It is not a response to some magical force which compells us to behave in certain ways. There is no devil tempting us and drawing us execorably to do wrong. If we chose to live in a more equitable world the circumstances which make people wrong others would diminish - though not disappear.

A belief in original sin allows people to deny personal responsibility for the wrongs they do to others - the "now look what you made me do syndrome". I have seen the corrosive effect it has on people of a religious belief who refuse to face up to the personal flaws they have and the hurts they cause to others, preferring to leave it up to God to judge their behaviour.

Br Cornelius
Explain the mechanics of it any way you like.  The truth is still apparent that evil exists in the world.  It has never gone away, no matter how enlightened mankind has tried to become and since past is generally prologue I'd say that the overwhelming expectation for the future of mankind is a continuation of conflict and war.  At least until we are finally at the brink of annihilating ourselves.  Some will no doubt die with the words or thoughts damning people of faith but it won't really matter much then, will it?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#53    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 09 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:


What about the role of the leadership in war?

A powermad leader will take a prosperous nation into a conflict regardless of it being stressed by a lack of resources.


#54    Br Cornelius

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

View Postand then, on 13 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Explain the mechanics of it any way you like.  The truth is still apparent that evil exists in the world.  It has never gone away, no matter how enlightened mankind has tried to become and since past is generally prologue I'd say that the overwhelming expectation for the future of mankind is a continuation of conflict and war.  At least until we are finally at the brink of annihilating ourselves.  Some will no doubt die with the words or thoughts damning people of faith but it won't really matter much then, will it?
The term Evil is a subtle on which shifts the balame from the perpetrator. If someone carries out an attrocity against another then that is what it is - an act of an individual against another. No-one or nothing is to blame other than the individual who committed the crime. No innate quality of human nature made them do it - it was a product of circumstances and choice.

Supposedly it was God who made the Pope order the crusades and the consequent death of 100,000's of individual civilians. I prefer to blame the Pope.

Br Cornelius

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#55    and then

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 13 December 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

The term Evil is a subtle on which shifts the balame from the perpetrator. If someone carries out an attrocity against another then that is what it is - an act of an individual against another. No-one or nothing is to blame other than the individual who committed the crime. No innate quality of human nature made them do it - it was a product of circumstances and choice.

Supposedly it was God who made the Pope order the crusades and the consequent death of 100,000's of individual civilians. I prefer to blame the Pope.

Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius
I understand what you are saying and I don't question your logic.  As humans we are free agents.  We choose our paths but we also have proven over millennia that those choices gravitate to the destructive.  For me, evil is simply a description of behavior that knowingly harms or destroys another.  I have never believed that people can justifiably  blame God for their choices.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...




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