More proof of ancient Europeans in Americas

[Farmer77]

When the crew of the Virginia scallop trawler Cinmar hauled a mastodon tusk onto the deck in 1970, another oddity dropped out of the net: a dark, tapered stone blade, nearly eight inches long and still sharp.

My link

[AdealJustice]

there is evidence of civlizations as old as 32,000 bc old , i wouldnt doubt travel happen to the America from even China ten thousand yrs ago lol . Mainstream history has limited man to the last 8-10,000 years .

[27vet]

We still gonna dig up some bigger surprises...

[BrandOfAmber]

*Snip*

Civilization (if not human civilization) has been around on this planet for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years...

Edited March 2, 2012 by Karlis
Deleted non-related comments

[Sean Creaney]

What evidence is there, carbon dating? , because a lot of acedemics agree with each other , it is put forward as fact , it is only speculation , we dont know how long the world is here nor does it matter . If the money and resources wasted on these speculations of Egotists was spent on curing disease and ending hunger the world would be a much better place.

[marcos anthony toledo]

The book They All Discovered America from the 1960s mention the Solutreans and another book that I later read as well No Stone Unturned published in 1956 also mention the simularates between the Solutreans and Clovis people. If the Solutreans could sail accross the Atlantic why could not people do the same accross the Pacific as well by boat and could the scientist fear a emergration from the Americas. Or to put another way a back in forth movement of people accross both oceans.

[Mr Right Wing]

We still gonna dig up some bigger surprises...

I think we will too

[Mr Supertypo]

If the money and resources wasted on these speculations of Egotists was spent on curing disease and ending hunger the world would be a much better place.

[Landry]

Something else that might interest you. Forbidden Archeology by Michael Cremo. The establishment status quo defenders won't like you - but who cares?

http://www.mcremo.com/

[Abramelin]

Something else that might interest you. Forbidden Archeology by Michael Cremo. The establishment status quo defenders won't like you - but who cares?

http://www.mcremo.com/

Yes we all here know of him.

Michael A. Cremo (born July 15, 1948, Schenectady, New York), also known as Drutakarma Dasa, is an American Hindu creationist whose work argues that modern humans have lived on the earth for billions of years. Cremo's book, Forbidden Archeology, has attracted attention from Hindu creationists and paranormalists, but has been criticized by scholars for ignorance of basic archeology.[3][4] Scholars of the mainstream archaeological and paleoanthropological communities have described his work as pseudoscience.[5][6] Cremo identifies himself as a "Vedic creationist.".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cremo

People who twist and turn scientific facts or create 'facts' to fit/please/prove their religion do not get much respect from me.

==

About that find of the OP: if people from Europe did indeed travel along the North Atlantic ice sheat and settled in North America, then where is the genetic proof they did?

There is none.

That could mean it never happened, or... that they didn't mix with the people already living there. Or that the people arriving from Siberia/Asia didn't mix with them.

And that seems unlikely to me.

I am a European, and many of my girlfriends were of Asian origin.

.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[therootsfan]

Yes we all here know of him.

Michael A. Cremo (born July 15, 1948, Schenectady, New York), also known as Drutakarma Dasa, is an American Hindu creationist whose work argues that modern humans have lived on the earth for billions of years. Cremo's book, Forbidden Archeology, has attracted attention from Hindu creationists and paranormalists, but has been criticized by scholars for ignorance of basic archeology.[3][4] Scholars of the mainstream archaeological and paleoanthropological communities have described his work as pseudoscience.[5][6] Cremo identifies himself as a "Vedic creationist.".

http://en.wikipedia....i/Michael_Cremo

People who twist and turn scientific facts or create 'facts' to fit/please/prove their religion do not get much respect from me.

==

About that find of the OP: if people from Europe did indeed travel along the North Atlantic ice sheat and settled in North America, then where is the genetic proof they did?

There is none.

That could mean it never happened, or... that they didn't mix with the people already living there. Or that the people arriving from Siberia/Asia didn't mix with them.

And that seems unlikely to me.

I am a European, and many of my girlfriends were of Asian origin.

.

*snip* The article is of anthropological interest, *snip*

Edited March 7, 2012 by libstaK
personal insults/flamebaiting

[Swede]

*Snip*

Civilization (if not human civilization) has been around on this planet for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years...

This may be a rather bold claim. Are we to assume that you have credible documentation to support such?

.

[Swede]

*snip*The article is of anthropological interest, *snip*

Anthropological interest? Or valid anthropological interest?

.

Edited March 7, 2012 by libstaK

[Abramelin]

*snip* The article is of anthropological interest, *snip*

"Anthropology" is what happens around you, not just in scientific studies. My point was that if I did it, others many thousands of years will also not have had much problems with doing it, or at least some of them wouldn't have had. Meaning: we would see genetic proof of that happening. And I have had more than one girlfriend, yes. Is that a problem for you? I am almost 55 years old now, and that was - for me at least - time enough to 'look around'.

And fyi: there are many people from Asian descent living here. In case you forgot: present-day Indonesia was once a Dutch colony. After it became independent many Indonesians came (fled) to the Netherlands. My old aunt was an Indonesian women, many of my friends in my youth were of Indonesian descent.

Once I studied TCM and I was the one to buy the study books for everyone because I was the one who knew my way around in The Hague. So I ended up in the Chinese district and entered the large bookshop overthere. I was being welcomed by a pretty Dutch-Chinese woman. After I had bought all the books I came back days later... but not for more books. There: also many Chinese people live here.

People meet, people mix. Sooner or later, but they will mix.

Maybe you should get out more.

Oh, and I almost forgot: another ex of mine is of native American descent. Arawak, in case you want to know. I know you do.

.

Edited March 7, 2012 by libstaK

[lightly]

respectful *snip*

About that find of the OP: if people from Europe did indeed travel along the North Atlantic ice sheat and settled in North America, then where is the genetic proof they did?

There is none.

That could mean it never happened, or... that they didn't mix with the people already living there. Or that the people arriving from Siberia/Asia didn't mix with them.

And that seems unlikely to me.

.

Thanks for the informative fact Abramelin, your one smart bird

i didn't know that there was NO genetic evidence, in North America for the Solutreans .

One thing i find interesting is that , as far as i know , there has been zero evidence of Clovis culture found in Alaska, which is supposed to be the route by which they travelled? That makes me wonder more about a Coastal entry into the Americas from Asia. ( i won't mention water craft )

[Abramelin]

Thanks for the informative fact Abramelin, your one smart bird

i didn't know that there was NO genetic evidence, in North America for the Solutreans .

One thing i find interesting is that , as far as i know , there has been zero evidence of Clovis culture found in Alaska, which is supposed to be the route by which they travelled? That makes me wonder more about a Coastal entry into the Americas from Asia. ( i won't mention water craft )

Ask Cormac if you don't believe me.

He made it very clear to me there is no genetic evidence of ancient Europeans visiting ancient America.

*snip*

Then all theories end.

Edited March 7, 2012 by libstaK
unnecessary rude comment

[cormac mac airt]

Thanks for the informative fact Abramelin, your one smart bird

i didn't know that there was NO genetic evidence, in North America for the Solutreans .

One thing i find interesting is that , as far as i know , there has been zero evidence of Clovis culture found in Alaska, which is supposed to be the route by which they travelled? That makes me wonder more about a Coastal entry into the Americas from Asia. ( i won't mention water craft )

Hello lightly,

In support of what Abramelin was saying, no, there ISN'T any genetic evidence of Solutreans being in North America. What one finds, in an attempt to claim otherwise however, is the mention of MtDNA Haplogroup X as if that alone supports the Solutrean hypothesis. It doesn't as X2a and X2g are known to have existed/do exist in North America and both are of Asian origin.

As to the Clovis culture, we're now starting to see evidence of a pre-Clovis culture having existed which would mean that the Clovis-first scenario is no longer tenable.

cormac

[lightly]

Hello lightly,

In support of what Abramelin was saying, no, there ISN'T any genetic evidence of Solutreans being in North America. What one finds, in an attempt to claim otherwise however, is the mention of MtDNA Haplogroup X as if that alone supports the Solutrean hypothesis. It doesn't as X2a and X2g are known to have existed/do exist in North America and both are of Asian origin.

As to the Clovis culture, we're now starting to see evidence of a pre-Clovis culture having existed which would mean that the Clovis-first scenario is no longer tenable.

cormac

Howdy cormac, oh i believe you and Abramelin... I suppose one of these days i'll actually have to learn to make some sense of that genetic alphabet soup you keep offering up .. and yup.. i'm somewhat aware of and loving the Pre Clovis stuff. thanks you guys.

[Swede]

Thanks for the informative fact Abramelin, your one smart bird

i didn't know that there was NO genetic evidence, in North America for the Solutreans .

One thing i find interesting is that , as far as i know , there has been zero evidence of Clovis culture found in Alaska, which is supposed to be the route by which they travelled? That makes me wonder more about a Coastal entry into the Americas from Asia. ( i won't mention water craft )

Hi Lightly. Just to add a bit and possibly somewhat muddy the waters. First, am not sure if you have read the following article. It goes into a bit more detail than the first one presented.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-from-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

To provide some elaboration: Both Stanford and Bradley have quite valid credentials. Bradley, in particular, is well accomplished in lithic analysis. None the less, their initial presentation was met with qualified critique. One of those who provided a detailed critique was Lawrence Straus (2000). Two of the more telling factors that Straus presented were that 1) There would appear to be no indication that the Solutrean culture was involved in, or heavily reliant upon, the procurement of larger mammalian aquatic resources. In fact, the only potential indication of the utilization of such resources is a single phalanx ("finger" or "toe" bone) from a common seal in a stratum associated with the Solutrean occupation in Altamira cave. As Straus suggests, this could be related to scavenging. Thus, we would not appear to have a culture involved in the maritime activities (or technologies) that Stanford and Bradley would suggest.

Another of the aspects that Straus presents is the artistic element. The sophistication of the "cave paintings" of Altamira is widely known, yet there would not appear to be any parallel for this form of artistry in North America.

As noted in the article above, the tusk and projectile point were recovered during scallop-dredging operations. While there could prove to be an association, one must keep in mind the rather myriad sets of natural processes that could account for the apparent association.

With the above said, the analysis of the 1971 recovery in regards to a French lithic source is of interest. Have not yet read the analysis report but, if correct, this would likely connect the source to the Santonian formation as per Hamilton and Emory (1988).

A couple of additional notes:

Current research would tend to indicate that Clovis technology originated in the southeastern United States.

There is documentation for at least one haplogroup (M) that was present in North America circa 5000 BP that, subsequent to this time, appears to have gone extinct. This is a haplogroup with an Asian association and the recovery was in British Columbia. None the less, it does illustrate the potential for groups to have at one time been present, yet are no longer represented in the current Indigenous genetic pool.

Can go into more detail, but enough for the moment. Just some factors to ponder.

.

[lightly]

Hi Swede, thanks for posting the very interesting article. And for correcting me that Clovis culture is believed to be native to South eastern U.S. ... Love the info on the pre Clovis finds... gotta GO!

[libstaK]

Enough with the bickering and commentary on members love lives - which has been edited now - back on topic folks

[lightly]

Hi Lightly. Just to add a bit and possibly somewhat muddy the waters. First, am not sure if you have read the following article. It goes into a bit more detail than the first one presented.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-from-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html

To provide some elaboration: Both Stanford and Bradley have quite valid credentials. Bradley, in particular, is well accomplished in lithic analysis. None the less, their initial presentation was met with qualified critique. One of those who provided a detailed critique was Lawrence Straus (2000). Two of the more telling factors that Straus presented were that 1) There would appear to be no indication that the Solutrean culture was involved in, or heavily reliant upon, the procurement of larger mammalian aquatic resources. In fact, the only potential indication of the utilization of such resources is a single phalanx ("finger" or "toe" bone) from a common seal in a stratum associated with the Solutrean occupation in Altamira cave. As Straus suggests, this could be related to scavenging. Thus, we would not appear to have a culture involved in the maritime activities (or technologies) that Stanford and Bradley would suggest.

Another of the aspects that Straus presents is the artistic element. The sophistication of the "cave paintings" of Altamira is widely known, yet there would not appear to be any parallel for this form of artistry in North America.

As noted in the article above, the tusk and projectile point were recovered during scallop-dredging operations. While there could prove to be an association, one must keep in mind the rather myriad sets of natural processes that could account for the apparent association.

With the above said, the analysis of the 1971 recovery in regards to a French lithic source is of interest. Have not yet read the analysis report but, if correct, this would likely connect the source to the Santonian formation as per Hamilton and Emory (1988).

A couple of additional notes:

Current research would tend to indicate that Clovis technology originated in the southeastern United States.

There is documentation for at least one haplogroup (M) that was present in North America circa 5000 BP that, subsequent to this time, appears to have gone extinct. This is a haplogroup with an Asian association and the recovery was in British Columbia. None the less, it does illustrate the potential for groups to have at one time been present, yet are no longer represented in the current Indigenous genetic pool.

Can go into more detail, but enough for the moment. Just some factors to ponder.

.

In my rush to get out the door this morning.. i forgot to also thank you for your informative post (above) including the possible French lithic source .

Upon reading bigtroutak's original post and link, i considered the possibility of the tusk/projectile find being happenstance.

I'll have to 'google' the Altamira cave Paintings. They may be widely known, but not this widely. Indeed, Great stuff to ponder!

[Bella-Angelique]

Scots have a little X haplos also, maybe 12%?

Only other X haplos group I know of.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Bella-Angelique

[Bella-Angelique]

The genetic evidence that you are looking for is the X haplos group from the area of what is I think now is southern Russia.

The Iroquois Native Americans are about 25% X haplos, a now extinct group of ancient Europeans.

Interestingly, in the entire Western Hemisphere only the Iroquois worshiped a supreme female deity, the Great Mother, rather than a supreme male deity.

So the geneticists are ahead of the game in tracing the path.

[cormac mac airt]

The genetic evidence that you are looking for is the X haplos group from the area of what is I think now is southern Russia.

The Iroquois Native Americans are about 25% X haplos, a now extinct group of ancient Europeans.

Interestingly, in the entire Western Hemisphere only the Iroquois worshiped a supreme female deity, the Great Mother, rather than a supreme male deity.

So the geneticists are ahead of the game in tracing the path.

Actually no, as X2a is not European in origin. Neither is the other subgroup found in the Americas, X2g.

cormac