Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

The Incas, explorers of the Pacific


  • Please log in to reply
304 replies to this topic

#106    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 April 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

And the Spanish did a lot of making up of the local culture that they ultimately dominated and almost destroyed.
Bunch of Spanish looters would hardly be able to understand what was the cultural significance of most of the Mayan festivals/art.

Alas, there were chroniclers of Incan descent who really spoke and understood their own language.

And if you ever visit Peru, you will soon find out that much of the Peruvian form of Catholicism is nothing but their own traditional beliefs hiding under a 'Christian veneer'.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 April 2013 - 08:47 AM.


#107    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:56 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 April 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Maybe it was the other way round the i.e the polynesians who are very similar to south east asians genetically could have colonised South America in the ancient past, the south american ancients were often potryaed with features like almond eyes, flat noses very similar to the south east asian peoples.

The explorer that you talk about could have gone to Africa where he found the black people, and it would be a more logical choice to go in a direction that you are not aware of to explore i.e they might have been in contact previously with South East asians and polynesians, and they could have known of their decendence from them.

I do believe that Polynesian tribes settled in South America, but that's not the same as 'colonized'. It appears there is only one small tribe, living in Brazil (the Botocudo people), who could have descended from Polynesians, and it is not even sure when that happened: some say they were Polynesian slaves that were brought to Brazil in colonial times.

But assuming Tupac Inca Yupanqui went as far as Africa is a bit of a stretch. Those 'black people' he had heard about could have been Polynesians from for instance the Solomon Islands. He stayed away for almost a year, so that may have been possible.

Someone from the Solomon islands:

Posted Image



"the south american ancients were often potryaed with features like almond eyes, flat noses very similar to the south east asian peoples."

Really? Please show me a photo of how they were being portrayed in South America.

I'll give you some examples (Mochica):


Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 25 April 2013 - 09:46 AM.


#108    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:04 AM

View Postjuliagezm1, on 25 April 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

I'd be interested to have the date setting explained.Posted Image

The date setting? What do you mean?


#109    Harsh86_Patel

Harsh86_Patel

    Psychic Spy

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:India

  • If you stare into the abyss,the abyss stares back into you

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:05 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 April 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Alas, there were chroniclers of Incan descent who really spoke and understood their own language.

And if you ever visit Peru, you will soon find out that much of the Peruvian form of Catholicism is nothing but their own traditional beliefs hiding under a 'Christian veneer'.

.
Irrespective of who the chroniclers were, the editing was done by the Spanish, and i in general have a problem believing religious fanatics and people who come with imperialism and loot in their mind.
I can imagine how the snake imagary everywhere must have sent shivers down their Spanish spines.


#110    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 7,962 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

    God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:08 AM

too much heaven on their mind ....

~

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer

~


#111    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:09 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 April 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Irrespective of who the chroniclers were, the editing was done by the Spanish, and i in general have a problem believing religious fanatics and people who come with imperialism and loot in their mind.
I can imagine how the snake imagary everywhere must have sent shivers down their Spanish spines.

Where did you get that from (see bolded line)?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 April 2013 - 10:10 AM.


#112    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:11 AM

About the Solomon Islands:

Patagonia: A Cultural History - Chris Moss

http://books.google....upanqui&f=false

Posted Image

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 April 2013 - 10:12 AM.


#113    Harsh86_Patel

Harsh86_Patel

    Psychic Spy

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:India

  • If you stare into the abyss,the abyss stares back into you

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:12 AM

Sorry for the almond eyes..flat nose comment....was thinking of something else, my bad.


#114    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:13 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 April 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Sorry for the almond eyes..flat nose comment....was thinking of something else, my bad.

You were thinking of the Olmecs, I know..


#115    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:36 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 25 April 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:


The elephant motiff in Mayan art is again an anomaly as there are no elephants in South America.

There's also no Mayan art in South America, lol.

But about those elephants:


Remains of Cuvieronius were found in association with man, and pieces of its hide and muscle tissue have been found in Chile: “The site has also yielded 38 small pieces of animal hide and muscle tissue, some still preserved on bones of Cuvieronius. Pieces of hide also were recovered from hearth areas, living floors, and wooden structural remains. Some pieces were still attached to wooden poles, possible suggesting the presence of hide-draped huts. Pathological and other analyses of these pieces suggest that they are also of a proboscidean.” South American fossils formerly attributed to mastodons are now believed to be Cuvieronius.

The related Stegomastodon occupied warmer, lower-altitude habitats in South America, while the smaller C. hyodon occupied cooler, higher-altitude Andean habitats. It has been C14 dated to as recently as 6,060 BP in Yumbo, Valle del Cauca, Colombia.

Cuvieronius was a mixed feeder, and has been dated at least as recently as 9,100 BP in Monte Verde, Chile. By the end of the Pleistocene, the northern limit of the range of Cuvieronius was in Mexico.


http://en.wikipedia....iki/Cuvieronius


This is from a Dutch Wiki:

Volgens sommige bronnen overleefde Cuvieronius in het Andes-gebergte tot in de vijfde eeuw na Christus, waarna door overbejaging door de Indianen ook deze soort uitstierf.

Transl.:
According to some sources Cuvieronius survived in the Andes Mountains to the fifth century AD, after which also this species went extinct, because of overhunting by the Indians.

http://nl.wikipedia....iki/Cuvieronius


From a Bulgarian Wiki:

Така много плацентни бозайници навлезли в Южна Америка. Наскоро се появиха предположения на някои учени, че южноамериканските слонове не са напълно изчезнали и малобройна популация все още живее в неизследваните части на Амазония. Тези предположения се базират на разказите на местните индиански племена, но засега няма доказателства за съществуването на този вид в наши дни

Transl.:
Recently, there has been speculation of some scholars that the South American elephants did not completely disappear and that a sparse population still lives in unexplored parts of the Amazon. These assumptions are based on the stories of the local tribes, but so far there is no evidence of this kind nowadays.

http://bg.wikipedia....ски_слон


Description
About 2.7 meters tall at the shoulder. Cuvieronius is famous for being one of the few prehistoric elephants (the only other documented example is Stegomastodon) to have colonized South America, taking advantage of the "Great American Interchange" that connected North and South America a few million years ago. This smallish elephant was distinguished by its long, spiraling tusks, reminiscent of those found on a narwhal.


It is difficult to pin down an exact extinction date for Cuvieronius, but carbon dating has revealed that Cuvieronius was alive during the Holocene as recently as a few thousand years ago. Remains of what seem to have been Cuvieronius have also been found in association with early human settlements (particularly well known examples from Chile), suggesting that Cuvieronius was quite possibly hunted by early humans. In fact human hunting is the theory that is most often proposed as the explanation for the extinction of Cuvieronius.

http://carnivoraforu...opic/9827245/1/


Worth noting that other elephant species have existed in biblical times and in about 1500BC a species of elephant <Elephas maximus rubridens) in Northern China was still to be found. Indeed some mastodons (Cuvieronius postremus) in South America died out in 400 AD.

http://velorum.balla...tml/animals.htm


Unseres Erachtens hängt das Vorkommen
von Mastodon und anderer pliozäner Faunenelemente im
Pleistozän bloß von lokalen Bedingungen ab (vgl. Vorkommen
von Mastodon cuvieronius postremus in Ekuador in den ersten
geschichtlichen Jahrhunderten).


Transl.:
In our opinion the presence of Mastodon
and other Pliocene faunal elements in the
Pleistocene depends only on local conditions (cf. occurrence
Mastodon cuvieronius postremus in Ecuador in the first
centuries AD
).


http://www.landesmus...8_0763-0787.pdf


#116    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:31 PM

Harsh, a question: if people from India came to the Americas, settled there and influenced American native culture, how would that show up in American DNA?

I agree with you there are several really amazing similarities between ancient Indian culture and American (=> Meso American) culture, but if these contacts were extensive and maybe lasting for some centuries, we should be able to see that in the genetical record, right?

I couldn't find anything.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 April 2013 - 01:31 PM.


#117    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 9,142 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

There is no elephant motive in Mayan artwork.

There are stylized macaws that fringers claim are elephants.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#118    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:25 PM

View PostHarte, on 25 April 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

There is no elephant motive in Mayan artwork.

There are stylized macaws that fringers claim are elephants.

Harte

Hmmmm...

What do you think of this:

Posted Image



That's one giant macaw.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 April 2013 - 03:18 PM.


#119    Harte

Harte

    Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence

  • Member
  • 9,142 posts
  • Joined:06 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis

  • Skeptic

Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Hmmmm...

What do you think of this:

Posted Image



That's one giant macaw..
Not really, when you consider it's part of a headdress, as you can see in the pic at left.

It's a macaw, alright.  The words "King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord." are carved on the stela.

Don't fall for fringe arguments.

You ever seen scales like that around an elephant eye?
Ever looked at a macaw?

The macaw is all over Mayan mythology, as is the jaguar.

Funny, they don't mention elephants.

Those tiny guys with the macaw are called "ways." They are little spirit creatures and they regularly accompany Mayan rulers.  You can find them in other motifs riding snakes as well.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#120    The_Spartan

The_Spartan

    Spartan Forever!!!!

  • Member
  • 3,734 posts
  • Joined:31 Mar 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Abu Dhabi, UAE

  • Gravity is Arbitrary!!

Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:16 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 April 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Hmmmm...

What do you think of this:

Posted Image



That's one giant macaw.


.

Omg. I remember having a big argument about the elephant/macaw issue with harte many years back.
and i agree its a macaw not an elephant.
The photo was photoshopped of course!!


View PostThe_Spartan, on 07 October 2007 - 07:52 AM, said:

Elephants in the Americas


Posted Image

Elephant trunks in Central America. In the ruins of the Mayan city of Copán (Honduras). Courtesy of Jaime Errázuriz, in Cuenca del Pacífico: 4.000 años de contactos culturales.


Posted Image

Stele with elephant in Ecuador. Stone slab with inscription written in Libyan, with an elephant in the upper part. Found in Ecuador, established as dating from 300 BC. Courtesy of Heinke Sudhoff, (Sorry Kolumbus).

huh? libyans in Eucador?? Is it a Fake?

View PostThe_Spartan, on 07 October 2007 - 07:52 AM, said:

Elephants in the Americas


Posted Image

Elephant trunks in Central America. In the ruins of the Mayan city of Copán (Honduras). Courtesy of Jaime Errázuriz, in Cuenca del Pacífico: 4.000 años de contactos culturales.


Posted Image

Stele with elephant in Ecuador. Stone slab with inscription written in Libyan, with an elephant in the upper part. Found in Ecuador, established as dating from 300 BC. Courtesy of Heinke Sudhoff, (Sorry Kolumbus).

huh? libyans in Eucador?? Is it a Fake?

View PostThe_Spartan, on 09 October 2007 - 05:55 AM, said:

QUOTE(Harte @ Oct 9 2007, 01:45 AM)
The one on the tablet is a tapir.

The ones in the carving are stylized macaws, a common motif in Mayan art.

Posted Image

See it in #8 above

Image is from THIS WEBPAGE.

Harte


Harte, perhaps that guy who identified the carving as macaws was low in eye sight. but i believe still that those are elephants.


and it was good Ol' Question Mark who set the track correct by pointing out that the photo i had posted was a fake -  the macaw idol was with the beak broken off, but the fake was the statue next to it,  was added to the photo.

View Postquestionmark, on 09 October 2007 - 10:26 PM, said:

QUOTE(coredrill @ Oct 9 2007, 04:20 PM)
No ?....i am not at meaning about the monkey like thing...but about this

Posted Image


I am sure you won't like this, but that sculpture does not exist in Copan, see here:

http://www.mayaruins.../copan_map.html

Seemingly it was supposed to be a an elephant, my bad. But the photo is a fake. The smiling monkey should have
told us something.....

ED: I forgot, the model for this fake was evidently Stela D


Edited by The_Spartan, 25 April 2013 - 11:17 PM.

"Wise men, when in doubt whether to speak or to keep quiet, give themselves the benefit of the doubt, and remain silent.-Napoleon Hill

Follow my stupid posts on Tumblr at Azrael's Ramblings




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users