103 replies to this topic

[Stellar]

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The implication being that a sovereign country should not stop the random murder of it's citizens IF it can do so?  How would you propose to cause an enemy who is willing to commit suicide in a pizza restaurant to rethink his actions?

Not by punishing an entire group of people. You see, the problem is that there are limits to what a country can ethically do to ensure security.

You argue that Israel must continue treating the Palestinians as second class citizens because, if they stop, the Palestinians will take over and treat the Jews as second class citizens. You approach the situation as if there's some sort of distinction between Palestinians and Jews which makes it more palatable for it to be the Palestinians that are mistreated. Others don't see that distinction and approach the issue with the notion that no one should be treated as a second class citizen. That's where this whole argument between the two sides occurs.

[and then]

Stellar, on 08 December 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

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Not by punishing an entire group of people. You see, the problem is that there are limits to what a country can ethically do to ensure security.

You argue that Israel must continue treating the Palestinians as second class citizens because, if they stop, the Palestinians will take over and treat the Jews as second class citizens. You approach the situation as if there's some sort of distinction between Palestinians and Jews which makes it more palatable for it to be the Palestinians that are mistreated. Others don't see that distinction and approach the issue with the notion that no one should be treated as a second class citizen. That's where this whole argument between the two sides occurs.

And I think that we see it totally differently.  You seem to believe that the conflict begins and ends with a discussion of human rights.  I believe the nexus of the conflict is the hatred between two groups of people.  An enduring, seething, irreducible hatred that politics will never solve.  If you take the time to look at the world today, even now the nations are beginning to turn against Israel more openly.  I think that will increase both in number and speed soon.  Stellar does it ever seem the slightest bit odd to you that the WHOLE WORLD is stressed out over a country that is no larger than some US cities?  That a country, a people, should be so universally hated when their chief sin is to have survived intact against all odds?  To your point - I think no one should be so hated as to lose their life just because of their circumstance of birth.  THIS has happened for centuries to the Jew.  It's no wonder they are willing to do damned near anything to stay on that little piece of land no matter what.  And the other side?  They only came, for the most part, to prosper with the Jews who rebuilt the land.  Nothing but hatred keeps them locked in this battle and you can look all over the region and see the same clawing, scrabbling, bloodthirsty hatred being played out against fellow Arab, Jew and any non believer who stumbles their way.  I believe it is supernatural and we are meant to draw a lesson from it.  The saddest thing of all for me to contemplate is that IF the Israelis ever gave up this pitiful small piece of land, the countries of Egypt, Jordan and Syria would probably fight to take it from the Palestinians or at least figure a way to tax them or steal from them.  And the Israelis, even if they settled Greenland, would still die anywhere in the world they prospered because of this same enduring hatred.

[Yamato]

and then, on 08 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

And I think that we see it totally differently.  You seem to believe that the conflict begins and ends with a discussion of human rights.  I believe the nexus of the conflict is the hatred between two groups of people.  An enduring, seething, irreducible hatred that politics will never solve.  If you take the time to look at the world today, even now the nations are beginning to turn against Israel more openly.  I think that will increase both in number and speed soon.  Stellar does it ever seem the slightest bit odd to you that the WHOLE WORLD is stressed out over a country that is no larger than some US cities?  That a country, a people, should be so universally hated when their chief sin is to have survived intact against all odds?  To your point - I think no one should be so hated as to lose their life just because of their circumstance of birth.  THIS has happened for centuries to the Jew.  It's no wonder they are willing to do damned near anything to stay on that little piece of land no matter what.  And the other side?  They only came, for the most part, to prosper with the Jews who rebuilt the land.  Nothing but hatred keeps them locked in this battle and you can look all over the region and see the same clawing, scrabbling, bloodthirsty hatred being played out against fellow Arab, Jew and any non believer who stumbles their way.  I believe it is supernatural and we are meant to draw a lesson from it.  The saddest thing of all for me to contemplate is that IF the Israelis ever gave up this pitiful small piece of land, the countries of Egypt, Jordan and Syria would probably fight to take it from the Palestinians or at least figure a way to tax them or steal from them.  And the Israelis, even if they settled Greenland, would still die anywhere in the world they prospered because of this same enduring hatred.

You've been corrected with history lessons and you always return with a convenient amnesia of the history.  Arabs and Jews lived in peace for hundreds of years while Jews were oppressed in the West.   Europe got rid of its "Jewish problem" and dumped it on the heads of innocent Palestinians and here we are.   One group of refugees creating another group of refugees like the video says.

Human rights don't have a beginning or an end.  No conflict can determine the advent or the removal of human rights.  Rights are perpetual.  They are self-evident and not granted by government authority or violent tyranny.   If Israel was willing to do anything, abandoning their illegal activities would be the obvious no-brainer but they're not even willing to do that.

[Erikl]

Yamato, on 07 December 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Britain's mess making in the Middle East buttress what I'm saying.   Its unintended consequences provide very good reasons why I don't support practicing colonialism.   Israel isn't the sole exception to that.

Argh again with that Israel is a colonialist power crap. Come on, I thought I've refuted this bogus claim too many times here for you to repeat it.
So, please, stop spreading your lies here.

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No state has a right to collective punishment.   Israel isn't the sole exception to that, either.

Yet Israel doesn't practice and didn't practice collective punishment. Israel has every right, and that was reaffirmed by international law that you so love to claim that Israel is in violation of, to put the blockade on Gaza. And btw, I love it how you totally ignore the fact that Egypt has as much part in this as Israel. Yet Egypt and Gaza have no war (they are now even controlled by the same political party, as Hamas is a Palestinian branch of Muslim Brotherhood).

[Yamato]

Erikl, on 08 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Argh again with that Israel is a colonialist power crap. Come on, I thought I've refuted this bogus claim too many times here for you to repeat it.
So, please, stop spreading your lies here.


Yet Israel doesn't practice and didn't practice collective punishment. Israel has every right, and that was reaffirmed by international law that you so love to claim that Israel is in violation of, to put the blockade on Gaza. And btw, I love it how you totally ignore the fact that Egypt has as much part in this as Israel. Yet Egypt and Gaza have no war (they are now even controlled by the same political party, as Hamas is a Palestinian branch of Muslim Brotherhood).

Well I'm certainly glad Egypt and Gaza "have no war".   Now if we can only get Israel there too.

What Israel is doing to Palestine isn't just collective punishment, it's ethnic cleansing.  The most horrific example of collective punishment short of genocide.  You're wiping out Palestine and with it, the Palestinians.  This policy isn't even domestic.  You're doing this to foreigners.

[and then]

Yamato, on 08 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

You've been corrected with history lessons and you always return with a convenient amnesia of the history.  Arabs and Jews lived in peace for hundreds of years while Jews were oppressed in the West.   Europe got rid of its "Jewish problem" and dumped it on the heads of innocent Palestinians and here we are.   One group of refugees creating another group of refugees like the video says.

Human rights don't have a beginning or an end.  No conflict can determine the advent or the removal of human rights.  Rights are perpetual.  They are self-evident and not granted by government authority or violent tyranny.   If Israel was willing to do anything, abandoning their illegal activities would be the obvious no-brainer but they're not even willing to do that.

The first and greatest of which is survival.  And the whole world can live in peace with Israel's enemies if they are willing to live as subservient citizens.  My issue with most supporters of the Palestinians is that they won't be honest about the end game.  We all know where it concludes yet the Palestinians are still looked upon as victims.  I suspect that in the aftermath of a war of annihilation where the people of Israel were treated the same way (or worse) than the Syrians are treating their own today, most of the people in the world would just shake their heads and say - "well, they had it coming".  NO ONE has THAT coming to them.

[ExpandMyMind]

Erik, while one might argue that as Israel did not have a 'mother state' when its people first invaded these lands (and therefore may not fit the definition of colonialist power), one can not even try to discount the fact that they were and are still colonisers.

This, coupled with the fact that they certainly did have a mother state when they started colonising the Occupied Territories, clearly shows that they are now without a doubt a colonialist power.

Oh and the blockade is by definition collective punishment. This has even been admitted by Israel's own leadership. They admitted that the blockade was designed to force the Gazans into renouncing Hamas, and also to try to split the two Occupied Territories' people up.

UN: Gaza blockade – collective punishment


http://www.ynetnews....4177710,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8654337.stm

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 08 December 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[Yamato]

and then, on 08 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

The first and greatest of which is survival.  And the whole world can live in peace with Israel's enemies if they are willing to live as subservient citizens.  My issue with most supporters of the Palestinians is that they won't be honest about the end game.  We all know where it concludes yet the Palestinians are still looked upon as victims.  I suspect that in the aftermath of a war of annihilation where the people of Israel were treated the same way (or worse) than the Syrians are treating their own today, most of the people in the world would just shake their heads and say - "well, they had it coming".  NO ONE has THAT coming to them.

Exterminating people and then complaining that those people also wish for your own extermination as the reason for the war is absurd.  That's just asking for it.   Palestinians can't even want to do what Israel is doing, without being branded by Israelis as terrorists.  That is blatant double standard.   But Israel can't swallow Palestine up all at once and get away with it.  They need to establish enough industry and trade, enough military might, and as much political power as possible first in order to get away with their Greater Israel Development Program on the world stage.   So they're developing away as quickly as they comfortably can.  

But the air is thick with change both in and around Israel.   Israel is feeling the heat under new political pressure from the UN, from the US, from her neighbors to the north and south, and even from her own people.  The world knows Israel is full of it.  Their constant demagoguery sounds more tired than ever.   Their global assassins, illegal blockades, ethnic cleansing and war crimes have tainted their reputation nearly beyond repair.   Bini has been pounding his fists on the lectern for years and he hasn't been able to get the US to sit and roll over yet.  

So Palestine does the most multilateral thing a state can do (go to the UN) and Israel spins it as "unilateral".   Israel has no credibility.  When they finally say something believable, let me know?

[Stellar]

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You seem to believe that the conflict begins and ends with a discussion of human rights.  I believe the nexus of the conflict is the hatred between two groups of people.  An enduring, seething, irreducible hatred that politics will never solve.

You're right. Politics will never solve it. Respect and humanity will solve it, though. Each side hates the other for their actions and how they treat the opposite group. That is something that can be changed and solved.

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If you take the time to look at the world today, even now the nations are beginning to turn against Israel more openly.  I think that will increase both in number and speed soon.  Stellar does it ever seem the slightest bit odd to you that the WHOLE WORLD is stressed out over a country that is no larger than some US cities?

No, it doesnt seem odd to me.

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I think no one should be so hated as to lose their life just because of their circumstance of birth.

Agreed. Do you also agree that no one should be so hated as to live a second-class life because of their circumstances of birth?

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THIS has happened for centuries to the Jew.

You know what? The current jews havent been alive for centuries. Nor the current palestinians.

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Nothing but hatred keeps them locked in this battle and you can look all over the region and see the same clawing, scrabbling, bloodthirsty hatred being played out against fellow Arab, Jew and any non believer who stumbles their way.

Yes but ask yourself why they are hated. Do you think all palestinians hate them simply because they are jews?

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The first and greatest of which is survival.

Survival doesnt grant you permission to do anything and everything.

Yamato, on 08 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Well I'm certainly glad Egypt and Gaza "have no war".   Now if we can only get Israel there too.

What Israel is doing to Palestine isn't just collective punishment, it's ethnic cleansing.  The most horrific example of collective punishment short of genocide.  You're wiping out Palestine and with it, the Palestinians.  This policy isn't even domestic.  You're doing this to foreigners.

Its an exaggeration is what it is. Exaggerating the situation will help no one.

[Erikl]

Yamato, on 08 December 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

Well I'm certainly glad Egypt and Gaza "have no war".   Now if we can only get Israel there too.

What Israel is doing to Palestine isn't just collective punishment, it's ethnic cleansing.  The most horrific example of collective punishment short of genocide.  You're wiping out Palestine and with it, the Palestinians.  This policy isn't even domestic.  You're doing this to foreigners.

*Snip*

Ethnic cleansing.... wow what a nerve to claim such things.... yet in the mean time, in the real world, Israeli Palestinians have grown from 155,000 to 1.5 million, ten fold growth. Palestinians in the disputed territories have the highest level of literacy in the region, and have the highest GDP per capita in the region among other Arabs.

Again, there is no and there was no "Palestine" to wipe out - there are Palestinians, but they are the same as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians. Their existence as separate people is solely the result  of British and French colonialism. They want their own state, I get it. Most Israelis have no problem with it. The problem is on the side you're representing - they are the ones who want to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Edited by Karlis, 08 December 2012 - 03:27 PM.
Please cease personal fights

[Erikl]

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Erik, while one might argue that as Israel did not have a 'mother state' when its people first invaded these lands (and therefore may not fit the definition of colonialist power), one can not even try to discount the fact that they were and are still colonisers.

Erm, yes you can. There are many other things that make up colonialism. For example, natural resources. In the case of the Zionists, there were no natural resources to take, on the contrary - they actually developed that neglected land. Second, Jews already lived in the area for thousands of years, perhaps as a minority, but still. Second, they didn't enforce their culture or religion on anyone, and as soon as they created their own state after the Brits were gone, they gave full cultural autonomy to the minorities - to this day Arabic is a co-official language in Israel, Arab holidays are celebrated freely, etc..

But, let's ignore it. You think it's colonialism - you have this gut feeling, so it must be true.

As soon as you didn't care to criticize your friend "Yamato" for blaming Israel of carrying out ethnic cleansing and exterminating the Palestinians, you lost all credit of any higher moral you think you represent.

[Yamato]

Erikl, on 08 December 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Wow, gone straight from lying to full blown blood libel!

What ethnic cleansing? can you stop breast feeding directly from Al-Qaeda's manifestos?

Ethnic cleansing.... wow what a nerve to claim such things.... yet in the mean time, in the real world, Israeli Palestinians have grown from 155,000 to 1.5 million, ten fold growth. Palestinians in the disputed territories have the highest level of literacy in the region, and have the highest GDP per capita in the region among other Arabs.

Again, there is no and there was no "Palestine" to wipe out - there are Palestinians, but they are the same as Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians. Their existence as separate people is solely the result  of British and French colonialism. They want their own state, I get it. Most Israelis have no problem with it. The problem is on the side you're representing - they are the ones who want to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Surely you realize how extremist you sound?   Convince the world there is no "Palestine".   You've wasted enough time on me already.

How is what Israel is doing to Palestine not ethnic cleansing?   The Palestinians are a people.  Their very existence is reliant on the existence of Palestine.   If Palestinians were bulldozing Israeli homes by the thousand, you'd be accusing Palestinians of the same in a new york minute, and rightfully so.   You keep Palestinians in cages, entombed in sieges where cooking, school supplies and even toiletries and toys have been forbidden.  You must not know what ethnic cleansing means.  Your government treats Palestinians like sub-humans and the rhetoric you use to describe them describes them as sub-humans.  You've committed ethnic cleansing on a population of innocent people who are mostly children.  How many young Palestinians do you unjustly lock away in your prisons?  Just how long do you think you can keep attacking other countries' civilians to keep your deprivation campaign on Gazans intact?

Ethnic cleansing (compare Serbo-Croatian etničko či¨ćenje^[1]) is the process or policy of eliminating unwanted ethnic or religious groups by deportation, forcible displacement, mass murder, or by threats of such acts, with the intent of creating a territory inhabited by people of a homogeneous or pure ethnicity, religion, culture, and history.

http://en.wikipedia....thnic_cleansing

That is EXACTLY what Israel is doing.  There is no exaggeration here.

Edited by Yamato, 08 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[ExpandMyMind]

Erikl, on 08 December 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Erm, yes you can. There are many other things that make up colonialism. For example, natural resources. In the case of the Zionists, there were no natural resources to take, on the contrary - they actually developed that neglected land. Second, Jews already lived in the area for thousands of years, perhaps as a minority, but still. Second, they didn't enforce their culture or religion on anyone, and as soon as they created their own state after the Brits were gone, they gave full cultural autonomy to the minorities - to this day Arabic is a co-official language in Israel, Arab holidays are celebrated freely, etc..

But, let's ignore it. You think it's colonialism - you have this gut feeling, so it must be true.

As soon as you didn't care to criticize your friend "Yamato" for blaming Israel of carrying out ethnic cleansing and exterminating the Palestinians, you lost all credit of any higher moral you think you represent.

First, Israel's policy in the Occupied Territories has been one of ethnic cleansing. This is not even debatable, as it is clearly shown and has been highlighted numerous times.

Thousands [140,000] lost residency under former policy, Israeli adviser says
http://edition.cnn.c...licy/index.html

Civil Administration plans to expel tens of thousands of Bedouins from Area C

http://www.btselem.o...ion_of_bedouins

When Israel knocks down Palestinian villages and replaces them and their inhabitants with Jewish ones, this is by definition ethnic cleansing. Trying to deny this irrefutable fact is just plain silly. We have witnessed Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing.

This is before we consider that not allowing the 700, 000 refugees back to their homes after the War of Independence also qualifies as ethnic cleansing, whichever way you try to wash it.

But I agree with you that there is no 'extermination' policy and that using terms like this is counter-productive.


Colonisation at its heart does not necessitate the qualifiers you have tagged to it. You don't need to be after resources (though Israel actually have taken control of the resources in the Occupied Territories, namely water and arable land, so it seems a bit lacking in logic that you would bring that up?), and you do not need to force a culture or religion on the inhabitants. While this has happened in the past with some colonial forces, at the heart of it, colonisation and colonial ventures are about just that - colonising another's land. Of which Israel and it's immigrant population were most definitely guilty of in the aftermath of WW2 and in the Occupied Territories in present day.

[Yamato]

And thus mere "colonization" is an understatement.   This is ethnic cleansing, by definition.

[Erikl]

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When Israel knocks down Palestinian villages and replaces them and their inhabitants with Jewish ones, this is by definition ethnic cleansing. Trying to deny this irrefutable fact is just plain silly. We have witnessed Israel's policy of ethnic cleansing.

Nope, they didn't. The settlements weren't built on any Palestinian villages. That's another lie propagated by the Palestinians and their oil-rich friends in the gulf.

And Israel doesn't even rule most of them. You see, Area C, which is about 62% of the West Bank, is home to only about 3% of the Palestinians, or about 50,000 amid some 350,000 Israelis. The rest, some 97%, are under Palestinian self-rule.

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Surely you realize how extremist you sound?   Convince the world there is no "Palestine".   You've wasted enough time on me already.

There is no Palestine, not yet. It didn't exist as a state and the people that have come to be known as Palestinians were part of the same people stretching all the way from Iran to Libya - Arabic speaking Muslim majority. They were divided to tribes. Then came along Europeans and introduced Nationalism and Colonialism.

So no, there was no Palestine. Not in the borders that the Palestinians themselves claim it exist - they simply claim the entire British Mandate borders, that's it. Well guess what - according to history, international law, etc. - there is another group of people that have claim to the region. These are the Jews. The thing is, us Jews have no problem sharing it in peace. The other side, wants everything or nothing. This is it.