Do secret police operate in the U.S., and

[Raptor Witness]

Given the recent uprising in Egypt, and the revelations we're discovering about their Interior Ministry's secret police force, supported and funded largely with U.S. tax dollars, it's a question I think we should asking.

I have no doubt they exist here, and here's one reason why. As of [30 September 2010,] 1,430,895 people are on active duty in the military with an additional 848,000 people in the seven reserve components.

The Washington Post recently revealed in a special investigation,[A hidden world, growing beyond control,] that "an estimated 854,000 people, hold top-secret security clearances."

Since [the number of acknowledged Al Qaeda members] was recently officially estimated to be about 300, that's 2,846 double-naught spies for every real "enemy," that the law originally contemplated. Overkill is an understatement. My next question is .... how many lower level spies are working under the Top Secret spies? My guess is the ratio is probably at least 1 to 4. This means we really have an estimated 3.4 million dedicated spies, with some level of security clearance. The only way to describe that, is a police state, the likes of which only Alex Jones could dream up. The only problem is, this isn't Alex Jones doing the ciphering.

[Agent X]

They're called the IRS.

In all seriousness, we do have law-enforcement agencies that does secret stuff. For example, the FBI's COINTELPRO program to keep an eye on anti-government groups. Not to mention the drive to keep an eye on white supremacist groups such as the Freemen and the KKK.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Agent X

[Thanato]

Because someone has Top-Secret clearance doesn't mean they have the need to know anything about counter terror. For instance there is a large number of individuals who have top secret clearance for R&D, communications, ect.

~Thanato

[aquatus1]

Heck, I had a Top Secret clearance just because I was the Aviation Maintenance Officer and needed one to get on the flightline.

[danielost]

i had one because i was a radio operater. every platoon in the army has a version of the communcater in it. i dont know how many platoons there are in the army, i am sure that the marines have a similar number. the navy needs at least one for every ship and they and the airforce have a radio in every plane. i would assume that eats up most of that 800,000.

Edited February 9, 2011 by danielost

[Ghostfinder]

I'd like to think there is but I doubt it. Even if there is I doubt they are very powerful. I'm not sure if your links are supposed to support your theory that there is one, but it doesn't really show me much to support that theory.

[+DieChecker]

I had a top secret security clearance because I worked in a Headquarters unit in Germany at the Brigade level. All I did was drive around a Captain and answer the phones, along with the occational week long stint in a giant tent in the woods packed with men listening to radios and putting push pins in maps.

I think there is obviously "secret police" in that there are undercover officers all over, doing work on drugs and other vice activities.

Is there a secret equivanent to the FBI that is peeking in our windows at night and making people disappear? I very, very much doubt it. If there was, we would hear all kinds of rumors, to stir fear and fuel obedience.

[Ghostfinder]

I think there is obviously "secret police" in that there are undercover officers all over, doing work on drugs and other vice activities.

Is there a secret equivanent to the FBI that is peeking in our windows at night and making people disappear? I very, very much doubt it. If there was, we would hear all kinds of rumors, to stir fear and fuel obedience.

Good point. Totally agree.

[Ghostfinder]

If there was a secret police like the kind I think that was meant for this topic. Black suits. Surveillance. Limitless power. I think it would be a cool gig. I could dig it. I wouldn't go after good people. Mopes though. Bad people that want to hurt others, and / or plot to do bad things. Some of them have too many rights. Would be great to go after them. Yeah...my kind of job.

[Raptor Witness]

The freemen and the KKK don't number in the hundreds of thousands, not even close. They are relatively few in number, and anyone who can Google for five minutes can figure that out. This would be a tiny fraction of this total estimate.

As for R & D and communications, most of these workers can easily get their work done through normal channels and publications. A relative handful of defense contractors and communications corporations might need a few thousand employees with this high level of clearance, but what you're arguing is like saying that every employee at Los Alamos had top level access, and that's simply not the case, because with these numbers, we would be talking about every employee. Let me remind you what "Top Secret" means.

Top secret

This is the highest security level that if publicly disclosed would cause "exceptionally grave damage" to national security.

As for the IRS, I would imagine a relatively small percentage of their roughly 125,000 member staff would need "Top Secret" clearance, limited to those dealing mostly in global banking and business, so we're still looking at numbers that are fractional when compared to this enormous 800k figure.

My intuition tells me that the military's [black budget,] as it's called, could be much greater than we've heard estimates of, which was around 50 billion last year. The problem is, the math still doesn't add up, even if you doubled the budget estimate, with a reasonable percentage that might be allotted to salaries. That’s a pretty easy estimate to do roughly.

This week, Egyptian President Mubarak's number of henchmen, which includes his Interior Ministry, was widely reported in the national media to be estimated at around 1 million, and that includes all the military. That's roughly 1% of the total population of Egypt. If you take the current estimate for U.S. population, and if you account for all the people hiding from those nosy census workers, it's probably about 325 million. Multiplied by 0.01 = 3.25 million, which is about what I came up with in Post 1, for my estimate of total security staff, including subordinates. It's a reasonable guess, even if you included the military, and I didn't reverse engineer the number.

So how is it, that a well armed free society has roughly the same number of security personnel as a military dictatorship with continuous martial law powers, and an unarmed populace? I wonder how many nations have a similar ratio.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Raptor Witness

[+DieChecker]

Having a Secret Clearance and having access to Secret materials are two different things.

I'd suppose many of the 30k+ in the FBI would have high access, as would the approximate same number in the CIA and NSA. There are people with top secret in multitudes in the Military. Anyone that has to be briefed on planned activities in a war zone, for instance. So this would include most officers, which would number probably close to 100k. Then there are just Federal government workers who need access to things of one kind or another, or access to secure areas. I'm sure everyone that works in the White House has a high level of clearance, as would many if not most congressmen and they more used aids. And that is just the visible tip of the iceberg.

Maybe a Mod needs to move this to the Conspiricy Theory Forum, since that is what you seem to be aiming at.

[aquatus1]

Let me remind you what "Top Secret" means.

Top secret

This is the highest security level that if publicly disclosed would cause "exceptionally grave damage" to national security.

You are confusing "clearance" with "material".

And yes, unless I get some indication that this isn't a conspiracy thread, I will be moving it.

Edited February 9, 2011 by aquatus1

[eqgumby]

This is absurd.

The math is all wrong and full of assumptions. So, if you have a top secret clearance, your counting all of them as "secret police", and all of us that have a top secret clearance have four minions? Really?

[conspiracysrus]

when you consider that theres thousands of people in pyramid systems that work for banks and other types of large organizations that number is a piddle in the ocean.

think whos on that list? theres CIA FBI ATF NSA DEA the list is long. those in turn (esp the cia) have smaller agencys that do their dirty work.

all these people have one level clearence or another which is another point alone.. what is considered "top secret" may not even be secret its just a classification.

you only have to read wikileaks to see whats considered top secret and in many cases its laughable.

as for keeping tabs on its citizens ?? anyone foolish enough to think otherwise wants a check up from the neck up!!

[questionmark]

Because someone has Top-Secret clearance doesn't mean they have the need to know anything about counter terror. For instance there is a large number of individuals who have top secret clearance for R&D, communications, ect.

~Thanato

Correct, in my Air Force time I had a top security clearance and my job was not even spectacular. I just worked on a top secret base.

[Raptor Witness]

You are confusing "clearance" with "material".

And yes, unless I get some indication that this isn't a conspiracy thread, I will be moving it.

The Washington Post investigation didn't imply a "conspiracy" per se, and I'm not either. I'm simply saying that I want to know what 800,000+ people are doing with this level of clearance. Especially considering that it took only one person to wreck the entire State Department's credibility.

[aquatus1]

Ah, well, that's easy then.

The majority of the people with Top Secret clearance are basically in the same room as Top Secret material. They can't look at it, or often even access it, but they are in the same working area, and because of that, need Top Secret clearance just to walk in the room. They don't actually get to touch any Top Secret Material.

[danielost]

you not only need top secert clearance, you also have to have a need to know.

[Raptor Witness]

Ah, well, that's easy then.

The majority of the people with Top Secret clearance are basically in the same room as Top Secret material. They can't look at it, or often even access it, but they are in the same working area, and because of that, need Top Secret clearance just to walk in the room. They don't actually get to touch any Top Secret Material.

What's your saying is, the Washington Post, one of the most respected newspapers in the world, wrote a highly detailed story, which was not widely criticized, that has exaggerated their claims beyond anyone's wildest imagination.

I'm never afraid to say, when I have the best laugh of the day.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Raptor Witness

[aquatus1]

What's your saying is, the Washington Post, one of the most respected newspapers in the world, wrote a highly detailed story, which was not widely criticized, that has exaggerated their claims beyond anyone's wildest imagination.

A major news outlet exaggerated claims to write a good story?

Shocker!

But no, actually, I am not saying that. If anything, the only person exaggerating anything is you exaggerating the conclusions that the Washington Post came to. All that I said was that the huge number of people with Top Secret clearances doesn't really mean all that much.

I'm never afraid to say, when I have the best laugh of the day.

Yes, well, laughing at the people you are supposedly having an adult and civil discussion with has always been considered the hallmark of a respectable debater.

Edited February 10, 2011 by aquatus1

[Raptor Witness]

A major news outlet exaggerated claims to write a good story?

Shocker!

But no, actually, I am not saying that. If anything, the only person exaggerating anything is you exaggerating the conclusions that the Washington Post came to. All that I said was that the huge number of people with Top Secret clearances doesn't really mean all that much.

Yes, well, laughing at the people you are supposedly having an adult and civil discussion with has always been considered the hallmark of a respectable debater.

I used to win college debates regularly by making the entire audience roll on the floor, so if I said that you make me laugh, I wouldn't automatically assume that it is bad.

The Washington Post report suggested that they were in contact with government employees who were fearful of the number of people with Top Secret clearance. That sounds like patriotism in action, to me.

Apparently the Congress may be thinking along those same lines, if the rejection of the Patriot Act in the House of Representatives yesterday, was any indication.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Raptor Witness

[aquatus1]

I used to win college debates regularly by making the entire audience roll on the floor, so if I said that you make me laugh, I wouldn't automatically assume that it is bad.

I used to judge college debates, and yeah, laughter is nice and all, but when it becomes an argument of incredulity, we marked down for it.

The Washington Post report suggested that they were in contact with government employees who were fearful of the number of people with Top Secret clearance. That sounds like patriotism in action, to me.

Sounds like an organizational issue to me.

Apparently the Congress may be thinking along those same lines, if the rejection of the Patriot Act in the House of Representatives yesterday, was any indication.

I'm sorry...I am not seeing the link here.

[Raptor Witness]

I'm sorry...I am not seeing the link here.

The House of Representatives apparently renewed the Patriot act today, somewhat mysteriously, given the vote down the day before. Some people are arguing that the lunch meeting at the White House yesterday for the Republican leadership, may have had something to do with the sudden turnaround in sentiment.

If the House had not passed [H.R. 514,] it would have cut some of these Top Secret positions, and shrunk the size of Homeland. The point being, that libertarian Republicans may be in agreement that the whole Homeland secret police force has grown larger than necessary. This is what libertarians argue against, so if there's nothing there, why pick this as a target? The reason is obvious to me, there is a secret police force there, and they don't like it.

[aquatus1]

So, just to clarify...you believe the Republican voted against the PA because they were afraid of a secret police?

[StarChild 83]

there are individuals within the military who do the intel gathering in foreign places. there job is to become a part of he culture and make contacts. how do you think we find out about stuff? Journalist? I mean it couldn't be cops or even FBI, the CIA? maybe but, i don't know there jurisdiction laws that they have to follow exactly. But the military has none to comply with. Besides not killing innocent people. and even if they did no one would ever find out.