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When Is It Excessive Force Anymore?


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#46    sickpuppy

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:03 PM

Quote

what ever happened to shooting the legs?
yeah, you're right.. but from the cops perspective, he's thinking "what ever happened to petty crime?"

everything's been ramped up 50 notches

it only took 3-4 posts for somebody to say "being naked doesn't mean less dangerous" ...yeah.. usually the opposite (pcp, whatever) they empty full clips into those people, they don't go down.. the cop is just a human and scared... he shoots first and thinks second..

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#47    aztek

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

View Postunit, on 09 October 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

.. the cop is just a human and scared... he shoots first and thinks second..
than he doesn't belong on the job than. it could be valid excuse for a homeowner that had a drunk\high intruder in his house, not a cop.
idk about you, but i'm not ok with cops shooting bystanders, and just shoot anyone at first sign of not being complied to.

what is next? cops shot you in the back, becouse he called you and you didn't turn around?

Edited by aztek, 09 October 2012 - 09:32 PM.

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#48    Cradle of Fish

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostRut Roh, on 09 October 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

As a practicing judo/jui jitsu player I can honestly say that adrenaline alone is enough to overcome a "wrist" or "arm" lock that has been executed to completion.  Completion being popping the joint.  Pain is something that only works on the willing or fearful.  With an adrenaline dump going through someones system alone you are just as likely to piss them off as you are hurt them.  Now lets add possible narcotic use on top of a situation and jui jitsu is a mute point and should only be attempted when the distance has been closed and is your LAST resort.  UFC has rules the street doesn't.  Subduing anyone hand to hand, regardless of size, is hard enough without the aid of a narcotic that will dull the senses and hence nullify pain as a reason for them to stop.  Also, hard to apply said wrist or arm lock when someone is biting you.  Again, rules are only for the ring.  Hell, I fought for 4 minutes with a very dislocated shoulder on adrenaline alone.  Didn't realize the severity of the injury until I walked off the mat and the pain kicked in within a couple of minutes.

He wasn't on pcp or this bath salts crap everyone is so hysterical about, he was on acid, tripping like a fool and it cost him his life. Instead of jumping on the cop/anti-cop bandwagon we should see the incident for what it is; a tragedy. For both parties. A family lost their son, a police officer is at risk of losing his livelihood.

Quote

Now, I agree with waiting for more info to come out to pass judgement, but it goes both ways.  You cannot just assume the police overreacted to the situation and just popped off a cap to feel all manly about himself just like anyone else can't assume that the police didn't possibly over reach with the reaction.  But unlike some, I tend to be a bit more lenient toward the officer, in cases like these, because of the aggravating factor of possible narcotics use.

I never assumed such a thing and I haven't seen anyone in this thread who appears to. Now reading the comments in the article is a different matter.


Quote

As for law enforcement training, the one thing I took from the academy that was numero uno on the list was officer safety.  Hand to hand engagement is not about safety as much as it is about survival.  If you have to use it, something along the way went wrong.  Let me ask you this, if the officer in question goes through 2 or 3 different non-lethal weapons trying to subdue the suspect and he/she is walking through them, what is the officer supposed to do?  What happens if an innocent bystander gets attacked because he/she was walking by while the officer is trying said tactics to no avail?  Is it still the officers fault either way?  It is real easy to Monday morning quarterback a situation the next day and not take into account all the variables that are current at the scene.  Context is everything in these matters.

If a whack with a baton or a zap with a taser doesn't deter them then by all means use lethal force. But don't assume that just because someone is acting unusual that they're on whatever flavour of the month drug is making the rounds in the news. Excessive alcohol consumption has been making people act erratically for thousands of years. Psychadelics and disassosciatives can manifest erratic behavior in people too. And what about mental illness?

And if there were other officers on the scene they definitely could have subdued him, all you need to do is knock him over and sit on him.

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#49    questionmark

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:34 PM

View PostCradle of Fish, on 09 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Don't they teach hand to hand techniques to police?

They try, but as many are as overweight as the goons they tried to arrest the result is kind of comic :devil:

Edited by questionmark, 09 October 2012 - 09:35 PM.

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#50    Michelle

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostCradle of Fish, on 09 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

If a whack with a baton or a zap with a taser doesn't deter them then by all means use lethal force. But don't assume that just because someone is acting unusual that they're on whatever flavour of the month drug is making the rounds in the news. Excessive alcohol consumption has been making people act erratically for thousands of years. Psychadelics and disassosciatives can manifest erratic behavior in people too. And what about mental illness?

And if there were other officers on the scene they definitely could have subdued him, all you need to do is knock him over and sit on him.

I was raised in a bar, from the age of about nine, and I've seen more than I ever really wanted to. I watched ten healthy, fit men try and subdue one erratic person, that was feeling no pain, trying not to harm him...and a couple of them were his friends. The first thing you need to do is make sure they don't get away and no innocent bystanders are hurt. That is especially true with a cop.

It isn't always as easy as you make it sound.


#51    and then

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:07 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 09 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

They try, but as many are as overweight as the goons they tried to arrest the result is kind of comic :devil:
Nothing funny about a dead young man who had an impeccable life record up to this error.  I am NOT a bleeding heart lefty.  If that can be said of ANYONE at UM, it's myself.  But I do not see justification in this.  I see lack of training in a campus rent a cop.

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#52    and then

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:17 PM

View Postunit, on 09 October 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

yeah, you're right.. but from the cops perspective, he's thinking "what ever happened to petty crime?"

everything's been ramped up 50 notches

it only took 3-4 posts for somebody to say "being naked doesn't mean less dangerous" ...yeah.. usually the opposite (pcp, whatever) they empty full clips into those people, they don't go down.. the cop is just a human and scared... he shoots first and thinks second..
I get that for the average person, Unit, but shouldn't we expect more from a person who has been given a right to carry a badge and a gun?  I'm not talking about making police officers risk their lives unnecessarily.  I'm saying that cops should be TRAINED in how to use non lethal force in a campus setting.  For me this makes all the difference.  This is a university campus.  I've stood in the building where this happened.  This school is a good school in a quiet town of about 300K people.  My guess is that the school will be very successfully sued, the police department will be thoroughly revamped and the policing budget will reflect the seriousness of what just happened.  But none of that will ever bring this guy home to his family again.  I have a 17 year old at home.  Soon she'll be off the university and while I cannot even imagine her making such a mistake, I would hope that if she did she would be given some chance of survival when her biggest crime was acting violently erratic.

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#53    Dredimus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:34 PM

Well, and then, twist the scenario and imagine your daughter is being attacked.

Everyone is preaching about the situation from the comfort of their chairs and behind the safety of their computer monitors while they have more than likely never been in a situation such as this.  Until you have been face to face with this type of situation you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do. And to imply that cops shouldn't be human and should have no fear is beyond ridiculous. If you people think that being an officer is that easy.. by all means join the academy and get to work... we could use a few super cops backing us up.

The world isn't as pretty and clear cut as some of you would like to believe. I hope you never have to see the harsh reality of the nature of true crime and drug use or what it takes to fight it. Have a wonderful night curled up in your warm beds while some one else is out protecting those things you take for granted while you dismiss that person's sacrifices.


#54    and then

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:55 PM

View PostDredimus, on 09 October 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Well, and then, twist the scenario and imagine your daughter is being attacked.

Everyone is preaching about the situation from the comfort of their chairs and behind the safety of their computer monitors while they have more than likely never been in a situation such as this.  Until you have been face to face with this type of situation you have no idea what you would or wouldn't do. And to imply that cops shouldn't be human and should have no fear is beyond ridiculous. If you people think that being an officer is that easy.. by all means join the academy and get to work... we could use a few super cops backing us up.

The world isn't as pretty and clear cut as some of you would like to believe. I hope you never have to see the harsh reality of the nature of true crime and drug use or what it takes to fight it. Have a wonderful night curled up in your warm beds while some one else is out protecting those things you take for granted while you dismiss that person's sacrifices.
Come on man..... enough with the martyr stuff.  I respect cops AND I know it's one of the most difficult professions there is.  But it IS a profession - or should be.  Nothing I have said denigrates cops.  It questions the system of training being used in THIS instance.

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#55    Merc14

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:53 AM

View PostEuphorbia, on 09 October 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

That was a pretty lame post!

Do you have any more stories that have absolutely nothing to do with this particular case?

So leaving  a psycho wandering around, who is crazy enough to attack an armed man, is fine by you?  What exactly does my scenario have nothing to do with?  Your suggestion for LEO's is to leave psychopaths, high on drugs, running wild among the populace until,you can gather enough people to safely contain them and to hell with the innocents who happen to wander into the area?  Oh, so a college campus doesn't have that many pedestrians wandering around?

Come on son. let me now what you think is right?  Let me know what is so off the wall about my post given the history of the new drugs and the danger to innocents wandering around.  You better have more than that lame slap.

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#56    Merc14

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:58 AM

View Postand then, on 09 October 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Nothing funny about a dead young man who had an impeccable life record up to this error.  I am NOT a bleeding heart lefty.  If that can be said of ANYONE at UM, it's myself.  But I do not see justification in this.  I see lack of training in a campus rent a cop.

What do you do with someone completely out of control, high on drugs that make them impervious to pain and innocent people are wandering in the area?  No easy answers, unfortunately, and if put a saint on salt he will attack you and try to eat you.  What do you suggest?  Afe you cool with wandering into the area while the LEOS gather enough force to subdue the monster?  OK, you are brave and willing to die, how about your loved one, should they die in the name of some gut who was fine until he ingested a drug that made him a monster incarnate?

Believing when there is no compelling evidence is a mistake.  The idea is to withhold belief until there is compelling evidence and if the universe does not comply with our predispositions, okay, then we have the wrenching obligation to accommodate to the way the universe really is.  - Carl Sagan

Who is more humble, the scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us or somebody who says everything in this book should be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of the human beings involved in the writing of this legend - Carl Sagan

#57    and then

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:34 AM

View PostMerc14, on 10 October 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

What do you do with someone completely out of control, high on drugs that make them impervious to pain and innocent people are wandering in the area?  No easy answers, unfortunately, and if put a saint on salt he will attack you and try to eat you.  What do you suggest?  Afe you cool with wandering into the area while the LEOS gather enough force to subdue the monster?  OK, you are brave and willing to die, how about your loved one, should they die in the name of some gut who was fine until he ingested a drug that made him a monster incarnate?
Lots of assumptions being made here.  The report said nothing about any attempt at non lethal what so ever.  If he was on bath salts then maybe it couldn't be avoided but NO ONE EVEN TRIED to restrain him in any other way.  Can't you see where such behavior leads?

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“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#58    and then

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

http://www.foxnews.c...test=latestnews

5"7,135...... naked and unarmed.

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“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#59    MstrMsn

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:03 AM

View Postand then, on 09 October 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

cops should be TRAINED in how to use non lethal force in a campus setting

I'm going to focus on this part....

First, it has already been said that many police departments are going away from pepper spray and tasers, for obvious reasons (such as, pepper spray doesn't always work - I know first hand, and how many people have died as a result of being tased??).

Second, say his department was one of them? What are his less than lethal options now? Judo/jujitsu? Ok, you as a cop, go in for a wrist lock or arm bar or try to do a take down, and he gets your gun. Now what? Also, it was shown that he was on LSD, so good luck trying to subdue him yourself.

Third, in most situations where LEOs have to shoot someone, it's always some civilian that keeps saying "poor training" or something to that effect. You don't know that it is. All that is known (mainly from your comments) is that you believe there to be a lack of proper training. Get the kind of training cops get, and put yourself into that very situation, and let's see how you respond.

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#60    Merc14

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:39 PM

View Postand then, on 10 October 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

Lots of assumptions being made here.  The report said nothing about any attempt at non lethal what so ever.  If he was on bath salts then maybe it couldn't be avoided but NO ONE EVEN TRIED to restrain him in any other way.  Can't you see where such behavior leads?

It is easy to judge when reading about an event on your computer.  There are a lot of facts missing in the report and when faced with this type of situation there may be no good answer.  Leave the wildman alone and an innocent get hurts, try and physically subdue him and his chemically enhanced body, impervious to pain and strength amplified injures or kills you (remember, pepper spray and tasers are ineffectual against people on PCP or Bath Salts) or shoot the guy and suffer the wrath of people like you.

Believing when there is no compelling evidence is a mistake.  The idea is to withhold belief until there is compelling evidence and if the universe does not comply with our predispositions, okay, then we have the wrenching obligation to accommodate to the way the universe really is.  - Carl Sagan

Who is more humble, the scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us or somebody who says everything in this book should be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of the human beings involved in the writing of this legend - Carl Sagan




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