4094 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 21 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Yeah the timeframe is a constant headache.

How are you dating this paragraph?

WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS.

In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia (Marseilles). Hereafter will be seen what reason we had. The Golen, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother. In order to make a favourable impression, they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth; but they had better have been called abstainers from the truth, or, in short,

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#be


That part might not fit in time order in the book..

It may have been a consequence of letting the Thyriers have more free play but might have occurred some time after quite a few lots of 7 years had passed. Even after Minerva had passed away.

This is how I dated the paragraph:

"Arrival of the Gola in Marseille is between Teunis/Woden/Inka time and Min-erva/Kalta's, or between
Teunis/MED: 2194-193= 2001 BCE.
Kalta: 2194-563=1631 BCE"

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 21 January 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

I found this:

Gola in Hebrew refers to the Jewish diaspora

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gola

meaning the historical exile of the Jews in context above. Exile as you said.

which really means 'a dispersion' of the people. diaspora

How about another similiar term... 'geula' - redeemers...

In Talmudic and post-Talmudic Rabbinic literature, this phenomenon was referred to as galut (exile), a term with strongly negative connotations, often contrasted with geula (redemption).

http://en.wikipedia....Jewish_diaspora

The Geula's - Gola of Sidon may have been actually sent to Sidon from an area closer to Jerusalem.

The missionary priests of Sidon were possibly really ancient Jewish priests of redemption (to God) from Jerusalem area who were in Sidon spreading the word, thats what made them missionaries.

I have some problems with these priests being 'sent' or 'spreading the word'.

As far as I know the Jews or Hebrews didn't do such a thing.

And certainly not between 2000 and 1630 BCE, because the Hebrews didn't even exist then as a tribe or nation.

The whole "missionary priests" thing sounds suspiciously Christian/ Catholic to me, btw.

[The Puzzler]

The part about Marseilles.
This might be who it says the Gola, missionary priests from Sidon, who later were called druids, according to Alewyn and what seems likely.

It says Thyriers also.

Nowhere does it say Greeks or Phocaeans.

The early history of this area is obscure but tradition has the Greeks landing there circa 600BC.
Who was there? Its possible that the Ligurians might have even been Hebrews of some kind, why were Ligurians such good sailors? Were they really an early type of Phoenician/Hebrew?

Its recorded they had auburn hair, long but now shorn - Hebrews also are known to have had auburn hair throughout history, most notably King David.

The arrival of the Greeks in Marseilles may be way later than the arrival of Gola in Marselles, which created the people who lived there, when the Greeks got there.
The Ligurians, not quite Celtic, not quite Roman. We also know prior to the rise of Rome, Etruria was visited by Phoenicians who mined there. All these types already in the area prior to the arrival of Greeks.

You might be interpreting this event as being too early but you are also interpreting it as being the arrival of the Greeks.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 21 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

I have some problems with these priests being 'sent' or 'spreading the word'.

As far as I know the Jews or Hebrews didn't do such a thing.

And certainly not between 2000 and 1630 BCE, because the Hebrews didn't even exist then as a tribe or nation.

The whole "missionary priests" thing sounds suspiciously Christian/ Catholic to me, btw.

They don't have to be Jews at that point, just early inhabitants of the area, of people who became Jewish priests and had the word geula for their redeemers.
I don't think you can know if in that time frame priests were moving around educating, teaching people, about the world and God, seems likely to me they were.
Aristotle has them coming from India originally.

Does the OLB actually call them 'missionary priests'? Seems the word might be sendalong priests - so missionary priests to a point but Id think you were wrong to suggest that no priests from Sidon ever left Sidon and didn't go elsewhere to teach others about redemption.

Tha Gola, alsa heton tha sa^endalinga prestera Sydon-is.

[NO-ID-EA]

The hebrews calling themselves the " followers of the truth " may also correspond with the Druids being the True - spirits , Dru-Id's.........when you look for individual evangelists within their ranks , we should also remember they came to consider themselves a nation of priests ,

If it was known that many of the diaspora came in this direction , that could have been a reason why Joseph of Arimathea , and the Marys fled this way , as the tradition goes.

I have also been reading about Caradoc , who Queen Cartimandua gave up to the Romans , he was sent to Rome , but instead of being killed like most captured Royalty were , he founded the 1st Christian church in Rome ,and was kept under house arrest , but only for 7 years.... and his daughter Claudia was given to either to Agricola or to Rufus Pudens ( what i am reading seems a bit confused on the matter )

both of whom were stationed in Britain for long periods

[The Puzzler]

geula = redemption

re·demp·tion

/rɪˈdɛmp ʃən/  Show IPA

noun
1.
an act of redeeming or the state of being redeemed.
2.
deliverance; rescue.
3.
Theology . deliverance from sin; salvation.
4.
atonement for guilt.
5.
repurchase, as of something sold

http://dictionary.re...owse/redemption

The backbone of Catholicism and Christianity - redemption, deliverance, atonement.

Marseilles itself was one of the earliest places to embrace Christianity and holds the heartbeat of the whole Roman Catholic Church.

It was during this time that Christianity first appeared in Marseille, as evidenced by catacombs above the harbour and records of Roman martyrs.^[16] According to provencal tradition, Mary Magdalen evangelised Marseille with her brother Lazarus. The diocese of Marseille was set up in the 1st century (it became the Archdiocese of Marseille in 1948).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille

Maybe because the priests there felt it in their best interests to distance from the Phoenicians and Jews, of whom Rome was a. obliterating from our planet and b. at war with at this time, creating a just as powerful offshoot of their former faith, which they distorted for their own benefit and power, in Rome.

Edited by The Puzzler, 21 January 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 21 January 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

The part about Marseilles.
This might be who it says the Gola, missionary priests from Sidon, who later were called druids, according to Alewyn and what seems likely.

It says Thyriers also.

Nowhere does it say Greeks or Phocaeans.

The early history of this area is obscure but tradition has the Greeks landing there circa 600BC.
Who was there? Its possible that the Ligurians might have even been Hebrews of some kind, why were Ligurians such good sailors? Were they really an early type of Phoenician/Hebrew?

Its recorded they had auburn hair, long but now shorn - Hebrews also are known to have had auburn hair throughout history, most notably King David.

The arrival of the Greeks in Marseilles may be way later than the arrival of Gola in Marselles, which created the people who lived there, when the Greeks got there.
The Ligurians, not quite Celtic, not quite Roman. We also know prior to the rise of Rome, Etruria was visited by Phoenicians who mined there. All these types already in the area prior to the arrival of Greeks.

You might be interpreting this event as being too early but you are also interpreting it as being the arrival of the Greeks.

To start with your last remark: *I* didn't say that, that is what is generally assumed (Wiki), that it were either the Greek Phocaeans or the Phoenicians who settled Massilia. My bet goes to the Phoenicians, btw.

-

The creators of the OLB  fabricated an alternative history for the origins of the Gauls/Celts - something already quite popular in the 19th century - and came up with an elaborate way to explain the names "Gaul" (Gola) and "druid" (trowyda) and "Celt" *Kalta).

Btw: it was De Grave who already in 1806 suggested that the "Kalta" (Celts) were nothing but Chaldeans.

-

Another thing: the Fryans supposedly knew the name of the 'missionary priests from Sidon', and it was Gola.

Funny they did not know the real name of the Phoenicians, Canana or Cnn, because that's how they called themselves, even when they lived in Carthago. Around 1800 BCE (between 2000 and 1600 BCE) they were must probably not known as Phoenicians. Even the ancient Greek historians knew that that was their original name. The name Phoenicians was given to them much later, and as far as I know later than the 6th century BCE, when the OLB is said to have been put on paper for the first time.


-

The hair color of the Phoenicans and Hebrews (or Semites in general) was black. That's how the Egyptians always portrayed them. Of course some may have had another hair color, but in general it was black.


-

What language did the Ligurians speak? You tell me:
http://en.wikipedia....guage_(ancient)

-

I found something about the religion of the Phoenicians/Canaanites:

I recently finished my new book on Canaanite mythology. Here are some excerpts:

The Epic of Baal the God of Thunder

By

Stephen Andrew Missick

http://aramaicherald...ic-of-baal.html

(and you need to highlight much of the text when you scroll down)

.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 January 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 21 January 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

They don't have to be Jews at that point, just early inhabitants of the area, of people who became Jewish priests and had the word geula for their redeemers.
I don't think you can know if in that time frame priests were moving around educating, teaching people, about the world and God, seems likely to me they were.
Aristotle has them coming from India originally.

Does the OLB actually call them 'missionary priests'? Seems the word might be sendalong priests - so missionary priests to a point but Id think you were wrong to suggest that no priests from Sidon ever left Sidon and didn't go elsewhere to teach others about redemption.

Tha Gola, alsa heton tha sa^endalinga prestera Sydon-is.

The translation is alright:  "saendalinga" is "zendeling" is missionary.

And about them being missonaries: all is possible, but they were not known for that.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 21 January 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

To start with your last remark: *I* didn't say that, that is what is generally assumed (Wiki), that it were either the Greek Phocaeans or the Phoenicians who settled Massilia. My bet goes to the Phoenicians, btw.

-

The creators of the OLB  fabricated an alternative history for the origins of the Gauls/Celts - something already quite popular in the 19th century - and came up with an elaborate way to explain the names "Gaul" (Gola) and "druid" (trowyda) and "Celt" *Kalta).

Btw: it was De Grave who already in 1806 suggested that the "Kalta" (Celts) were nothing but Chaldeans.

-

Another thing: the Fryans supposedly knew the name of the 'missionary priests from Sidon', and it was Gola.

Funny they did not know the real name of the Phoenicians, Canana or Cnn, because that's how they called themselves, even when they lived in Carthago. Around 1800 BCE (between 2000 and 1600 BCE) they were must probably not known as Phoenicians. Even the ancient Greek historians knew that that was their original name. The name Phoenicians was given to them much later, and as far as I know later than the 6th century BCE, when the OLB is said to have been put on paper for the first time.


-

The hair color of the Phoenicans and Hebrews (or Semites in general) was black. That's how the Egyptians always portrayed them. Of course some may have had another hair color, but in general it was black.


-

What language did the Ligurians speak? You tell me:
http://en.wikipedia....guage_(ancient)

-

I found something about the religion of the Phoenicians/Canaanites:

I recently finished my new book on Canaanite mythology. Here are some excerpts:

The Epic of Baal the God of Thunder

By

Stephen Andrew Missick

http://aramaicherald...ic-of-baal.html

(and you need to highlight much of the text when you scroll down)

.

I think Wiki is as clear as clear when talking about the settlement of Marseilles and it was not by Phoenicians. It was Greek Phocaeans from Phocaea in Asia Minor.


Marseille has been called the oldest city in France, as it was founded in 600 BC by Greeks from Phocaea as a trading port under the name Μασσαλία (Massalia; see also List of traditional Greek place names). The connection between Μασσαλία and the Phoceans is mentioned in Book I, 13 of the History of the Peloponnesian War by Thucydides.^[11] The precise circumstances and date of founding remain obscure, but nevertheless a legend survives. Protis, while exploring for a new trading outpost or emporion for Phocaea, discovered the Mediterranean cove of the Lacydon, fed by a freshwater stream and protected by two rocky promontories.^[12] Protis was invited inland to a banquet held by the chief of the local Ligurian tribe for suitors seeking the hand of his daughter Gyptis in marriage. At the end of the banquet, Gyptis presented the ceremonial cup of wine to Protis, indicating her unequivocal choice. Following their marriage, they moved to the hill just to the north of the Lacydon; and from this settlement grew Massalia.



But I'm saying that people from Phoenicia could have arrived at Marseille prior to we know the Greeks did.
The Fryans didnt know the name of the Gola until there imo. They called themselves indicates to me they called them that because they called themselves that name.

The OLB knew the Phoenicians as Thyrians - Tyrians, an oft mentioned name for them throughout history.

Its your opinion the OLB was fabricated and I gave clear meanings a few posts beack on how the name Kalta steeped in the root shreik/speak fits perfectly with the root gal, also root for meaning rooster in Latin (gallus)because of the shrieking a rooster makes.

Both words imo can have the same root meaning and therefore be from the name Kalta (Kelts and Gauls - and Gaul is not Gola, even tho the OLB uses both, the Gola however do become the leaders (priests) of the Gauls, as druids.)

All I'm saying is how can you be sure that the reference in the OLB is really meaning the arrival of the Greeks in 600BC when it doesnt even mention Greeks, there could have been an earlier arrival, the Etruscans seem very live it up people there for a while.

Edited by The Puzzler, 21 January 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 21 January 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

The translation is alright:  "saendalinga" is "zendeling" is missionary.

And about them being missonaries: all is possible, but they were not known for that.

I know that now I worked it out as English send along, which is what they really were, missionary is just what we know these types as now.

Sidon:

Sidon (whose name in classical Arabic is: صَيْدونْ (Saydoon)) has been inhabited since very early in prehistory. The archaeological site of Sidon II shows a lithic assemblage dating to the Acheulean, whilst finds at Sidon III include a Heavy Neolithic assemblage suggested to date just prior to the invention of pottery.^[1] It was one of the most important Phoenician cities, and may have been the oldest. From here, and other ports, a great Mediterranean commercial empire was founded. Homer praised the skill of its craftsmen in producing glass, purple dyes, and its women's skill at the art of embroidery. It was also from here that a colonizing party went to found the city of Tyre.

So contrary to what you keep saying, Sidon DID have colonisers. They apparently founded the city of Tyre, which is not what we are debating but word is mentioned of them colonizing none the less.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 21 January 2013 - 06:08 AM, said:

Yeah the timeframe is a constant headache.

How are you dating this paragraph?

WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS.

In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia (Marseilles). Hereafter will be seen what reason we had. The Golen, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother. In order to make a favourable impression, they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth; but they had better have been called abstainers from the truth, or, in short,

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#be


That part might not fit in time order in the book..

It may have been a consequence of letting the Thyriers have more free play but might have occurred some time after quite a few lots of 7 years had passed. Even after Minerva had passed away.

You may call it flash-backs, not pertaining to the actual history, which is largely based on wittness reports.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 21 January 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I know that now I worked it out as English send along, which is what they really were, missionary is just what we know these types as now.

Sidon:

Sidon (whose name in classical Arabic is: صَيْدونْ (Saydoon)) has been inhabited since very early in prehistory. The archaeological site of Sidon II shows a lithic assemblage dating to the Acheulean, whilst finds at Sidon III include a Heavy Neolithic assemblage suggested to date just prior to the invention of pottery.^[1] It was one of the most important Phoenician cities, and may have been the oldest. From here, and other ports, a great Mediterranean commercial empire was founded. Homer praised the skill of its craftsmen in producing glass, purple dyes, and its women's skill at the art of embroidery. It was also from here that a colonizing party went to found the city of Tyre.

So contrary to what you keep saying, Sidon DID have colonisers. They apparently founded the city of Tyre, which is not what we are debating but word is mentioned of them colonizing none the less.

What I 'keep saying' was concerning the word "colonize" :

http://www.unexplain...0

And what the Phoenicians most often did was create trading posts and hardly ever truly colonized the surrounding land (except Carthage of course). So, if you want to call these trading posts 'colonies', then yes, they were colonizers.

-

A 'zendeling' or OLB 'saendalinga' was someone 'sent out for some purpose'. But whatever their 'mission' was, they were missionaries. And the Gola were not just missionaries, but missionary priests, just as we (at least in Dutch) still call Catholic priests: zendelingen.


-

Who settled Massilia first is still unsure, apparently (and I mentioned 'a' Wiki page, not the standard one about Marseilles):


Founded about 600 B.C. by a colony of Phoenicians and taken by Cæsar in 49 B.C.

http://en.wikisource...lles_(Massilia)


Among the most outstanding colonies or trading posts which the Phoenicians had established were the cities of Genoa, where they went in with the Celts and established a flourishing colony, and Marseille which they started as nothing more than a trading post before it became fully Hellenized.

http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html


History

As mentioned, Massalia was founded as a trade port in the west, primarily for tin. It is thought that perhaps the site was first settled by the Phoenicians, then taken over by the Greeks as the Phoenicians moved further southwest, to Gadir. In any case, the city grew and became a major player in the trade from the west. Carthage continually harrassed her shipping, especially when the cargo-laden ships passed the narrows between Siciliy and Carthage. Piracy was a government supported way of life. When Hannibal marched across the Alps, he avoided Massalia, entering the Alps further to the north.

http://hannibalbarca...com/masalia.htm

Massilia was called by the Greeks Marseilles. A Greek city in Gallia Narbonensis, on the coast of the Mediterranean, in the country of the Salyes, founded by the Phoenicians of Asia Minor about B.C. 600.

http://www.bible-his...e/Massilia.html


One does not know from where the name of Μασσαλία (Massalia) comes. Some historians think that the Massalia, like the Lacydon which gave its name to the ancient port, was perhaps a coastal river which was flowing into the large creek where the Greeks who came from Phocaea landed. Others propose a Semitic origin : Matsal, a protective place.

http://www.massalia....nt-propos2.html


Marseille , the oldest city in France , was founded in 600 BC by Greeks from Phocae as a trading port under the name of Massalia. The origin of the name is obscure , some see it as the name of a river that was taken by Greeks to enter the city , some see it as the name "Mas Salyorum" (land of the Salyens) and some even see a phoenician root "Matsal" (place of the protector).

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=7200

Edited by Abramelin, 21 January 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 21 January 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

You may call it flash-backs, not pertaining to the actual history, which is largely based on wittness reports.

So you're saying that the story about the Gola arriving in Massilia is nothing but an intermezzo, and not necessarily in chronological order?

Btw, this is the chapter:

OLB: Hwat thêr of wrden is.
Me (DU): Wat ervan geworden is
Me (EN): What it has become
Sandbach: WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ay

It suggests that it was a direct consequence, or result of what went on before.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 January 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 21 January 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

The hebrews calling themselves the " followers of the truth " may also correspond with the Druids being the True - spirits , Dru-Id's.........when you look for individual evangelists within their ranks , we should also remember they came to consider themselves a nation of priests ,

If it was known that many of the diaspora came in this direction , that could have been a reason why Joseph of Arimathea , and the Marys fled this way , as the tradition goes.

I have also been reading about Caradoc , who Queen Cartimandua gave up to the Romans , he was sent to Rome , but instead of being killed like most captured Royalty were , he founded the 1st Christian church in Rome ,and was kept under house arrest , but only for 7 years.... and his daughter Claudia was given to either to Agricola or to Rufus Pudens ( what i am reading seems a bit confused on the matter )

both of whom were stationed in Britain for long periods

This is another quote from the OLB:

THE WRITINGS OF ADELBROST AND APOLLONIA.

(...)

Thju fêre thêra is wêst that tha Gola jeftha Trowyda vs al-êt lând of wnnen haeven al ont thêra Skelda aend thi Magy al to thêre Wrsâra.

; the consequence of which was that the Gola or Trowyda took possession of our lands as far as the Scheldt, and the Magy as far as the Wesara.

(and I have some problems with this translation...)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bh

Something tells me the ID in your "Dru-Id's" is of a very recent date (Sigmund Freud).

--

The Celts or Gauls were not a 'nation of priests': the priests, or druids, were a separate caste.

However, Israel was called that way according to the Bible:

Exodus 19:6

And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak unto the children of Israel.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 January 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 21 January 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

What I 'keep saying' was concerning the word "colonize" :

http://www.unexplain...0

And what the Phoenicians most often did was create trading posts and hardly ever truly colonized the surrounding land (except Carthage of course). So, if you want to call these trading posts 'colonies', then yes, they were colonizers.

-

A 'zendeling' or OLB 'saendalinga' was someone 'sent out for some purpose'. But whatever their 'mission' was, they were missionaries. And the Gola were not just missionaries, but missionary priests, just as we (at least in Dutch) still call Catholic priests: zendelingen.


-

Who settled Massilia first is still unsure, apparently (and I mentioned 'a' Wiki page, not the standard one about Marseilles):


Founded about 600 B.C. by a colony of Phoenicians and taken by Cæsar in 49 B.C.

http://en.wikisource...lles_(Massilia)


Among the most outstanding colonies or trading posts which the Phoenicians had established were the cities of Genoa, where they went in with the Celts and established a flourishing colony, and Marseille which they started as nothing more than a trading post before it became fully Hellenized.

http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html


History

As mentioned, Massalia was founded as a trade port in the west, primarily for tin. It is thought that perhaps the site was first settled by the Phoenicians, then taken over by the Greeks as the Phoenicians moved further southwest, to Gadir. In any case, the city grew and became a major player in the trade from the west. Carthage continually harrassed her shipping, especially when the cargo-laden ships passed the narrows between Siciliy and Carthage. Piracy was a government supported way of life. When Hannibal marched across the Alps, he avoided Massalia, entering the Alps further to the north.

http://hannibalbarca...com/masalia.htm

Massilia was called by the Greeks Marseilles. A Greek city in Gallia Narbonensis, on the coast of the Mediterranean, in the country of the Salyes, founded by the Phoenicians of Asia Minor about B.C. 600.

http://www.bible-his...e/Massilia.html


One does not know from where the name of Μασσαλία (Massalia) comes. Some historians think that the Massalia, like the Lacydon which gave its name to the ancient port, was perhaps a coastal river which was flowing into the large creek where the Greeks who came from Phocaea landed. Others propose a Semitic origin : Matsal, a protective place.

http://www.massalia....nt-propos2.html


Marseille , the oldest city in France , was founded in 600 BC by Greeks from Phocae as a trading port under the name of Massalia. The origin of the name is obscure , some see it as the name of a river that was taken by Greeks to enter the city , some see it as the name "Mas Salyorum" (land of the Salyens) and some even see a phoenician root "Matsal" (place of the protector).

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=7200

OK great, as I say I think Phoenicians were there before we know of the Greeks being there.

This is who the OLB is referring to imo - not the arrival of the Greeks in 600BC.

Thats why Im trying to figure out what connection the Ligurians had to being an early Canaanite type or at least were a mixed group of Northern Europeans - Ambrone connection mixed with incoming Phoenicians, all occurring way before the Greeks arrived.

Point being, you claimed that the events of the Greeks arrival didn't correspond with the time frame in the OLB where I am making a case that it is not the event being told about in the OLB but an earlier one.