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Crop circles are not the work of hoaxers

greg jefferys crop circles

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#136    ciriuslea

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:08 AM

View PostChrlzs, on 16 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Ciriuslea (and _Only, and anyone else who wishes to help), it's time for you to put up or ..  You have again made claims that lack support - what "research and laboratory tests suggest that microwave or ultrasound may be the only method"?  And didn't you notice the words "suggest" and "may"??  It's a load of pretentious made-up rubbish - I've looked into this claim before, and found (owatasuprise) there was absolutely NO, ZERO, NADA scientific evidence or credible analysis.  If you are suggesting that has changed, please supply links to *that* rather than links to sites making more claims...

I'm gunna take a wild guess that if I go visit that website, not one of the many links it may contain is to any sort of real analysis.  Am I right, Ciriuslea?  Feel free to embarrass me by contradicting that...  And if you can't, what would you infer from that strange omission?

I'd be delighted to address any real evidence.  I'd be delighted to look at any circle designs that are claimed to be 'too difficult' for humans..  But that offer/request seems to have been ignored in favour of more handwaving and complaints about alleged insults.  Which seems like a very convenient way of avoiding the request that claimants actually support their claims.  How about supplying evidence and analysis instead of trying to avoid those topics?

You seem to have got carried away with trying to debunk all claims that you don't agree with, we can all provide links to sites saying all kinds of stuff, you have a link to a site that claims all circles are done by hoaxers, I found one that says they can determined those that have different characteristics to those known to be hoaxed, I don't know who makes them, you seem to so then I guess that's the end of the issue.

Whats with all the sarcasm and stuff do you have somekind of online ego to stroke or are you showing off to merton?,
I have no intention of embarrassing anyone funny you should say something like that after jumping all over my initial comment and by the manner of your replies.


#137    ChrLzs

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:21 AM

View Postciriuslea, on 20 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

You seem to have got carried away with trying to debunk all claims that you don't agree with
Maybe that's because they deserve debunking - being full of, you know, bunk.
Which is why I simply asked for evidence - you did after all claim certain things, like humanly-impossible designs, ultrasonics/microwaves..  These things are testable, they involve collecting data in a valid way.  If that was done, then it should have been properly documented.  I've simply asked you to back that up, but it seems you can't.

And that seems to indicate that such claims are incorrect.  They are misleading.  They are misinformation.  Do you think that is what should be happening at this forum?

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we can all provide links to sites saying all kinds of stuff
And IF those links contain easily verifiable and logical information, they should be considered.  Agreed?  I'm certainly ready and willing to examine any sites that show the non-human designs/technology in a reasonable way...  So where are they?

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you have a link to a site that claims all circles are done by hoaxers
Don't misrepresent me.  I showed links that showed crop circles (not necessarily ALL of them) made by hoaxers/artistes.  Others have also provided links including videos of them being made...  The point I am making is that UNLESS you dispute those sites and videos (I'm guessing you don't), then it is possible for at least some crop circles to be made by humankind.  Agreed?

That being the case, it comes back to you.  You have a simple challenge - show us either:
- a crop circle design that could NOT possibly be made by humankind
using reasonably available tools and humanpower
- a crop circle that involves traces of some non-human technology (ultrasound/kryptonite..)

Unless you or anyone else can do that, then the KISS and Occam's Razor principles apply - they can be done by humans, so they all probably are...

You claimed those impossible designs and traces of non-human technology.  However.. when asked to provide the evidence, you backpedaled furiously and have instead chosen to complain about my tactics.

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Whats with all the sarcasm and stuff do you have somekind of online ego to stroke or are you showing off to merton?
Perhaps you should look at your own posts......

You'll note that this post asks for nothing but evidence, and does not directly question your motives/ego...

I'll leave that for the readers. :D

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#138    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:43 AM

It is simply Occams razor.
The burden of proof is on those who want to tell us that the circles are the work of space aliens, hobgoblins, god, or the ghost of Elvis.

And not the other way around.

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#139    ciriuslea

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:23 PM

ciriuslea said:

I've never tried to 'make' a crop circle, but some of them are so geometrically perfect and of a scale that I find incredible could be hoaxed especially in a few hours in the dark...Is it a coincidence that crop circle areas of Britain we see metallic spheres and military helicopters, or is that all part of the hoax ?

ciriuslea said:

Maybe you haven't seen just how technical some of the more elaborate 'circles' are, they're not all circles btw...Like I said I've never made one so don't know how easy they are to make...
I'm guessing you have for you to comment on the process...please post pics of the circles you have made for us to compare to the ones found in England,

I'm keeping an open mind on the subject what I said was I found it incredible they could be made within a few hours in the dark...not that they couldn't or that spock made them...Id like to see someone who had some knowledge of creating art like this, how they would go about creating one...an elaborate one with some degree of technical challenge let them try it in the dark and see what happens

http://wingnutmodels.../CropCircle.jpg


On a seperate note is there any pics of any half finished or crop circles that went wrong or any suspected circles that went wrong but the whole area was flattened to cover it up ?

ciriuslea said:

Geez, lol.... good for you, you can solve puzzles and like playing with spirographs,  you seem to have got carried away with yourself in trying to prove how they are made, I never stated that they couldn't be made with the blue peter approach, string and planks of wood, I just found it hard to believe they were made in pitch dark in a short space of time and to a complexity that needs some serious planning, and apparently lots of people have witnessed balls of light in and around crop circles and circle formation

The link you provided does provide some evidence about some of the 'circles' and upon viewing a youtube about one made in New Zealand at night does go some way to answering my initial query, but its not really at night the video is either moon lit or has a spotlight or something illuminating the area, apparently there are differences in circles, label distinction 'man made and real'



The more I read into this the more it becomes apparent that some crop circles are more than just crops that have been trodden on to create an image, as for your challenge lol really ?...I suppose then any that has an unexplained altered chemistry like described in the above quote, can or have the hoaxers created a circle that incorporates all the known facts found in what are described as real in the above link, I think until the hoaxers make a circle that has all the same elements as this type of circle then I think I'll continue to keep an open mind on them

ciriuslea said:

Its foolish to dismiss these without fully understanding how they are made sure some are man made but some who study them are baffled by how certain aspect appear...the hoaxers seem all too proud to tell the world they are hoaxed, surely they can let the world know how they managed to achieve some of the other anomalies found within the circles. ?

ciriuslea said:

You seem to have got carried away with trying to debunk all claims that you don't agree with, we can all provide links to sites saying all kinds of stuff, you have a link to a site that claims all circles are done by hoaxers, I found one that says they can determined those that have different characteristics to those known to be hoaxed, I don't know who makes them, you seem to so then I guess that's the end of the issue.

Whats with all the sarcasm and stuff do you have somekind of online ego to stroke or are you showing off to merton?,
I have no intention of embarrassing anyone funny you should say something like that after jumping all over my initial comment and by the manner of your replies.

Ok now this is basically my presence in this thread, I think if anything the theme is not really knowing who made them and when I did attempt to make any type of claim was that there are differences in what some experts class as hoaxed and lets just say 'others' My initial comment was one of disbelief that some of the more complex circles could be made in pitch dark within a few hours, which are the circumstances in which some appeared, not that they couldn't nor did I ever state any of the circumstances found within a circle couldn't be replicated by man.

But its interesting you comment about other readers, personally I don't care what other readers think, I comment what I feel with the intention of learning, to ask questions, perhaps a little confrontational and perhaps rude sometimes of which I must apologise, its never personal, but when you encounter some users who lets say get carried away with themselves its hard not to be sometimes
I often find that some people like to read into comments far more than what actually exists and then presume to repost from what they believe comments to say when they actually say something completely different.


This statement you made is interesting "I showed links that showed crop circles (not necessarily ALL of them) made by hoaxers/artistes" as its basically mirroring what I initially commented, I added the reasons why I thought some weren't made by hoaxers....but still, hopefully we understand each other at last.

Edited by ciriuslea, 20 June 2013 - 01:31 PM.


#140    _Only

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostChrlzs, on 20 June 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:


You'll note that this post asks for nothing but evidence, and does not directly question your motives/ego...

That was refreshing.

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#141    _Only

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 20 June 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

It is simply Occams razor.
The burden of proof is on those who want to tell us that the circles are the work of space aliens, hobgoblins, god, or the ghost of Elvis.

And not the other way around.

There really is no burden of proof, unless you're just wanting to argue, attack, or defend, as if this was a court of law.

In cases like this, evidence against non human intervention of crops is just as important as evidence for it. This isn't a scenario where 'prove it wasn't a ghost, etc' can't be done.

If everyone decided to adopt your stance of 'it's up to the alien lovers to show us crop circles aren't made by humans', we wouldn't have some of the interesting videos of people showing how crop circles can be made, etc. They wouldn't have to try and figure it out, because the burden of proof is not on them! And a lot more of us would be wondering how it's possible that humans made these. You see what I mean?

Burdens of proof are good in a court room, but not when trying to get to the bottom of something.

Edited by _Only, 20 June 2013 - 06:53 PM.

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#142    ChrLzs

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:23 PM

View Post_Only, on 20 June 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

There really is no burden of proof
And with that, _Only sweeps away thousands of years of science and logic.

Quote

In cases like this, evidence against non human intervention of crops is just as important as evidence for it.
Funny way of putting it - I would have thought that the words PROPER or VERIFIABLE or DOCUMENTED should be placed before evidence.

You'll note that the human intervention stuff has been well-documented and proven.  Where is the similar PROPER evidence for the non-human?  Ciriuslea has now completely backpedaled away from that, and now you?

It's quite simple - post that evidence.  Stop the handwaving and avoidance..

Quote

Burdens of proof are good in a court room, but not when trying to get to the bottom of something.
The requirement for proper evidence applies everywhere.  Without it you CANNOT 'get to the bottom of something', if that something involves fairies or aliens or anything else for which there is no evidence.

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#143    _Only

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

I'll have to stop you right here before you go any further in thinking that I believe or claim crop circles to be anything other than of normal origin. I'm not sure where you got this idea. Maybe since I was bothered of some people's abrasive attitude, as in calling others fools and whatnot (not necessary or helpful) , you assumed I disagreed with their 'side'. I just wanted to clear that up before you attempt to go any further asking me to find any facts corroborating my non existent stance. If you're trying to rope people to divide on sides of a fence, I'm not one of them.

Now re-read my post as if I wasn't trying to defend anything. Feeling another side has to prove something about a subject is useful if you feel like there's nothing to learn. That will keep you thinking you're right, by not seeing any information otherwise. But some people realize this is unfruitful to getting everyone to understand things better, and decide to gather evidence that crop circles can be made by men, giving us methods and videos, which you can use in your online argument here.

If those guys said, 'it's up to you to show that aliens made these' instead, we wouldn't be getting as far in figuring this mystery out, do you agree?

My point was agreeing with your proposed stance that ponders if something other than this world's inhabitants might not be creating these things. Then there would be no way to prove that aliens, or whatever means, made these, because, hypothetically, they didn't. So nothing would be learned. The lack of information doesn't mean that a stance is right, though. Evidence that men do make these is information that makes your stance more strong. So what would you rather do; wait for someone to prove to you that men didn't make circles? Or figure out how men can? Now you see how waiting for someone with a burden of proof to show you the light can be a silly concept here.

But I know that's not about debating online. It's more about learning. But it'd be nice to see people happy to just learn some interesting stuff here as opposed to the never ending us vs. them, with snide stabs back and forth, where feelings get hurt, and emotions run higher than necessary.

To each their own, I guess. But I hope I cleared some confusion up before you went further.

Edited by _Only, 20 June 2013 - 10:20 PM.

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#144    _Only

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:32 AM

I was thinking in the car that the best thing (in my opinion) to show for absolute sure that all crop circles were made by men is to fill in that cloudy area in time where crop circles started appearing, and pinpoint a definitive reason that makes sense for them to have appeared. If we looked at it as a crime, there has to be a motive. What was the motive? So far the only explanations I've seen are someone bored, and looking for some odd type of fame. But I can't be alone in finding these explanations less than satiating. Maybe someone can come up with a more satisfying motive that would help give everyone that aha moment for figuring out why these things could have started appearing. Because it is such an oddball thing that no doubt it's going to be copied once seen, but what would have been the first person's motive to make those shapes in that field?

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#145    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:47 AM

If we are going to form an opinion (and doing so is a natural human thing to do -- we seem wired not to admit to ourselves when we don't know), then we need to be willing to go with the weight of the evidence and not demand proof.  A demand for proof can never be satisfied and hence requires we never decide.

In this particular case the weight of the evidence seems to me to be clearly that these things are entirely manmade, end of subject.  Demonstration that many of them are manmade is easy, that there is nothing about any of them that could not be manmade is asserted but without convincing evidence, and other than pranksters and artists, they seem to have no purpose -- and these functions are human purposes.


#146    born2run

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:48 AM

Seen some, made some, as to who or what made them, I can think of a lot more interesting "paranormal", "supernatural", even Sy-Fy, so I'm lazy, does it really matter, honestly. I guess if I had a farm in Kansas, I'd be interested but I don't, so I won't but I know there will be/are plenty of kind, interesting, folks out there, who do. Blessed Be to all of ya'.

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#147    ChrLzs

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:26 AM

So, getting back to the topic..


Where is the evidence for 'non-humanly-possible' content in crop circles..?

If the answer is "We have none", then there shouldn't be any shame in saying that.  So why doesn't anyone want to answer it?

Could it be because the sites purporting to have such evidence (like the rather tragic example given earlier) actually have none whatsoever, to the embarrassment of their eager readers?

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#148    Oppono Astos

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:20 PM

View Post_Only, on 21 June 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

I was thinking in the car that the best thing (in my opinion) to show for absolute sure that all crop circles were made by men is to fill in that cloudy area in time where crop circles started appearing, and pinpoint a definitive reason that makes sense for them to have appeared. If we looked at it as a crime, there has to be a motive. What was the motive? So far the only explanations I've seen are someone bored, and looking for some odd type of fame. But I can't be alone in finding these explanations less than satiating. Maybe someone can come up with a more satisfying motive that would help give everyone that aha moment for figuring out why these things could have started appearing. Because it is such an oddball thing that no doubt it's going to be copied once seen, but what would have been the first person's motive to make those shapes in that field?
Not sure when any serious researcher has stated all are man-made? For some reason the believers here don't seem to recognize and acknowledge the natural windborne circles (related to lodging) that have been documented back into the 1800s, known in common lore as devils/witches rings/circles/twists etc.  Pictograms have been documented across Europe from the early 1900s, but that doesn't preclude hoaxing even in those times.

Who is the skeptic: the realist who won't accept belief, or the believer who won't accept reality?

#149    Frank Merton

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:25 PM

That is the damn trouble with documentation of asserted facts using the web.  Web sites can be cited to support any damn thing, and there is no web equivalent of peer review.  Even Wiki sometimes has nonsense.

I've gotten to the point where unless it promises entertainment I don't bother with web site citations.  Instead I tend to try to stick with what is reasonable and with logical argument and not get into argumnents over the truth or falsehood of assertions.


#150    ciriuslea

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:01 PM

I think the trouble with the argument, if man can make it then its obviously man made falls short, true no real evidence exists to prove anything other than groups of hoaxers/artists are running around creating pretty pictures in the landscape, so before people bust a vessel lets just make that clear.

(Thinking out loud)

As I understand it the hoaxers haven't managed to show how they created all the differences found within a formation ? they might have described how it could or was done  but have they actually had a sample test like an experiment where the hoaxers/artists produced all the same stuff found in formations to compare to formations thought not to have been hoaxed ? (this is a question btw, not a claim so keep it real)
What's interesting is how the word of a hoaxer carries more weight than anyone else, surely by the very nature of being a hoaxer your intention is to deceive, which then brings us to the point, arh but its art...Ok then what is the purpose of the node and germination changes, or any of the little details when small details are not really important to create a large image,

There is something that's bugging me with this line of thought, if its an art installation, the little details are redundant, unless the purpose is to deceive, which then creates the doubt within the claims made by the hoaxers..a paradox?

Can someone explain why the details exist, Im an artist and I know when creating art, features like this must play a serious role otherwise they wouldn't exist





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