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#916    skyeagle409

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

BR, my request for evidence goes doubly so for you.  All you've ever done here is run off your weaselly little mouth like the true propagandist you are.

I've provided considerable evidence and references in support of my position, including research, calculations, models, and graphics which I have personally developed; to help educate and answer questions which I consider valid and worthy of explanation.  Where these materials and answers have been provided by others, certainly I have referred people, including yourself, to those answers and that information.

You, and several like you, blindly go on about your merry way without even considering such information and answers.  Instead you merely shirk them off and continue to spout your nonsensical and long ago debunked drivel over and over again.

So it goes.

BR, must think that people were born yesterday.

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#917    Babe Ruth

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 06:33 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 17 October 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:



BR, my request for evidence goes doubly so for you.  All you've ever done here is run off your weaselly little mouth like the true propagandist you are.

I've provided considerable evidence and references in support of my position, including research, calculations, models, and graphics which I have personally developed; to help educate and answer questions which I consider valid and worthy of explanation.  Where these materials and answers have been provided by others, certainly I have referred people, including yourself, to those answers and that information.

You, and several like you, blindly go on about your merry way without even considering such information and answers.  Instead you merely shirk them off and continue to spout your nonsensical and long ago debunked drivel over and over again.

So it goes.

Yes Boo, you have provided many links and pictures.  What you seem to forget is that I basically was on your side for several years.  So I thank you for your effort to educate me, but I've fairly well educated myself, thanks in large part to this internet and its wealth of information.

Simply put, the links, pictures and statements you've offered are not persuasive.  You are unable to address serious concerns and questions.  Mere repetition of the government story really doesn't prove anything to a curious mind.

Nobody can explain the heat source at WTC.  Nobody can explain how a minimally skilled rookie pilot could do what he did except by saying "Well, he did it, get over it."

Sorry Charlie, that answer might be good enough for you, but it's not good enough for me.


#918    skyeagle409

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 17 October 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

Simply put, the links, pictures and statements you've offered are not persuasive.

Evidence, is evidence! You dismissed viable evidence and yet, you threw in a P700 anti-ship cruise missile for which there was no evidence.

Quote

Nobody can explain the heat source at WTC.

Very simple! Fires within the WTC buildings fed by the contents within the WTC buildings.

Quote

Sorry Charlie, that answer might be good enough for you, but it's not good enough for me.

Since you have shown a serious lack of knowledge on facts and evidence, it is not surprising.

Edited by skyeagle409, 17 October 2012 - 07:22 PM.

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#919    TrueBeliever

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:40 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 17 October 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Evidence, is evidence! You dismissed viable evidence and yet, you threw in a P700 anti-ship cruise missile for which there was no evidence.



Very simple! Fires within the WTC buildings fed by the contents within the WTC buildings.



Since you have shown a serious lack of knowledge on facts and evidence, it is not surprising.

How rude and derogatory would you be to a say...FBI agent with extensive knowledge and understanding of evidence who tells you there are many many problems, inconsistencies, omissions and cover ups with the official 'story?  Do you think they are all wacky conspiracy nuts too?


#920    Czero 101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:08 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

How rude and derogatory would you be to a say...FBI agent with extensive knowledge and understanding of evidence who tells you there are many many problems, inconsistencies, omissions and cover ups with the official 'story?  Do you think they are all wacky conspiracy nuts too?
I guess it would depend upon what evidence he / she was able to produce, or are you saying that we should just take their word on it "on faith" with no need for any kind of evidentiary support...?





Cz

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
"I'm tired of ignorance held up as inspiration, where vicious anti-intellectualism is considered a positive trait, and where uninformed opinion is displayed as fact." - Phil Plait
"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." - H. L. Mencken

#921    skyeagle409

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:24 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

How rude and derogatory would you be to a say...FBI agent with extensive knowledge and understanding of evidence who tells you there are many many problems, inconsistencies, omissions and cover ups with the official 'story?  Do you think they are all wacky conspiracy nuts too?

I have posted details on intelligence failures leading up to the 9/11 attacks, which included the FBI, and there was nothing in the details implicating the U.S. government in the 9/11 attacks.

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#922    TrueBeliever

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostCzero 101, on 17 October 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

I guess it would depend upon what evidence he / she was able to produce, or are you saying that we should just take their word on it "on faith" with no need for any kind of evidentiary support...?





Cz

Of course you would want evidence......memos, phone calls, meetings, physical, whatever type. My point is this. There are some really good people who tried to protect this country and its citizens and they were thwarted and lied to and sometimes plain ignored.....the EVIDENCE they had was ignored many times.... Does that bother you...at all? Does that not raise any flags to you? or is the official story good enough because well...they said so?  Even members of the 9/11 Commission were thwarted and lied too, and they didn't like it one bit.

As I have said before, any thinking rational open minded person who has investigated and researched the events prior to and the day of 9/11 knows that we have not been told the real truths of that awful awful day. Obviously we cannot get all of the evidence we need. The masterminds will never allow that. There are so many layers of bs it is overwhelming.  But many reputable intelligent good people KNOW we have been deceived. Just because some conspiracy theorists are nutty doesn't mean every alternative theory/explanation is wrong or crazy........

I just wish all Americans could be united in wanting to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth. as brutal as it may be. THEY depend upon the obedient masses who are too scared to be labeled crazy and labeled a conspiracy nut.......


#923    skyeagle409

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Of course you would want evidence......memos, phone calls, meetings, physical, whatever type. My point is this. There are some really good people who tried to protect this country and its citizens and they were thwarted and lied to and sometimes plain ignored.....the EVIDENCE they had was ignored many times.... Does that bother you...at all? Does that not raise any flags to you? or is the official story good enough because well...they said so?  Even members of the 9/11 Commission were thwarted and lied too, and they didn't like it one bit.

As I have said before, any thinking rational open minded person who has investigated and researched the events prior to and the day of 9/11 knows that we have not been told the real truths of that awful awful day. Obviously we cannot get all of the evidence we need. The masterminds will never allow that. There are so many layers of bs it is overwhelming.  But many reputable intelligent good people KNOW we have been deceived. Just because some conspiracy theorists are nutty doesn't mean every alternative theory/explanation is wrong or crazy........

I just wish all Americans could be united in wanting to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth. as brutal as it may be. THEY depend upon the obedient masses who are too scared to be labeled crazy and labeled a conspiracy nut.......

The problem is, too many people have been mislead by 9/11 conspiracy website, which are notorious for spreading disinformation, misinformation, and lies.

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#924    TrueBeliever

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 17 October 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

The problem is, too many people have been mislead by 9/11 conspiracy website, which are notorious for spreading disinformation, misinformation, and lies.

Well I definitely agree with that.....
But that does not mean any alternative theory/explanation to the 'official' story is false, or wacky. Quite frankly some of the garbage the officials have spewed is just as bad. Probably worse, seeing as how many lives were lost due to complete and total incompetence/participation or a combo of the two.

One day i hope those with the evidence will be able to speak and then.....then you will KNOW the official story is BULL&*****.


#925    Czero 101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Of course you would want evidence......memos, phone calls, meetings, physical, whatever type.

Ok, stopping here for a moment...

What would you say then to someone who claims that the "official story" is a lie, claims that there is evidence to support his claims yet goes to extreme lengths to avoid producing any of that alleged evidence, even going so far as to openly lie about his ability to use a computer as an excuse for not producing links to the evidence he maintains is available and has seen, and continually handwaves away any and all evidence that proves his wrong as part of the Government's "official lie" since the government "has lied before and therefore nothing they say can be looked at as accurate of believable.

Would you want this person arguing on your side of the proverbial fence?

Would you consider it "rude and derogatory" to point out to others that this person has lied in the past, continues to do so, purposely misinterprets or disregards evidence for no other reason than to avoid having to answer tough questions that reveal the falsehood and folly of his position, produces strawman arguments and red herrings to try and avoid having to address the issues presented to him, claims experience and knowledge of the topics under discussion yet when pressed for details, when giving answers to some questions and when giving descriptions of how he thinks events happened or should have happened makes such egregious errors in logic and basic knowledge that it becomes clear that the person really has nothing more (and in some instances, substantially less) than a layman's level of knowledge of the topics he claims personal professional experience in...?

Quote

My point is this. There are some really good people who tried to protect this country and its citizens and they were thwarted and lied to and sometimes plain ignored.....the EVIDENCE they had was ignored many times.... Does that bother you...at all? Does that not raise any flags to you? or is the official story good enough because well...they said so?  Even members of the 9/11 Commission were thwarted and lied too, and they didn't like it one bit.

As I have said before, any thinking rational open minded person who has investigated and researched the events prior to and the day of 9/11 knows that we have not been told the real truths of that awful awful day. Obviously we cannot get all of the evidence we need. The masterminds will never allow that. There are so many layers of bs it is overwhelming.  But many reputable intelligent good people KNOW we have been deceived. Just because some conspiracy theorists are nutty doesn't mean every alternative theory/explanation is wrong or crazy........

I just wish all Americans could be united in wanting to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth. as brutal as it may be. THEY depend upon the obedient masses who are too scared to be labeled crazy and labeled a conspiracy nut.......

The problem that I see is that there are so many varied and different "conspiracy theories" out there. Some flatly contradict each other. Some require leaps of faith or logic so vast that Evel Knievel himself would balk at making that jump.

More importantly, there isn't one complete theory, imo, that addresses ALL the evidence, that accounts for everything as well as or as completely as what people call the "Official Narrative" or more derogatorily the "Official Lie" or "Official Conspiracy Theory".

Its the same thing with the Moon Landing hoax. There are a few theories that focus on one or two individual oddities or inconsistencies (none of which have ever stood up to any amount of serious scrutiny), but there is nothing that addresses the event in its massively complex entirety, all the facts and figures and mountains of evidence that prove Man went to the Moon.

Sure there are a few oddities and even a few holes (maybe more than a few) in the Official Story, and yeah, there's a good chance we're not being told every single thing about what happened or who knew what exactly when, but until someone can come up with something that addresses all the facts of the day more completely and logically, the "Official Narrative"remains the accepted fact(s) of the day regardless of what you or anyone else thinks or believes.





Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 17 October 2012 - 09:14 PM.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
"I'm tired of ignorance held up as inspiration, where vicious anti-intellectualism is considered a positive trait, and where uninformed opinion is displayed as fact." - Phil Plait
"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." - H. L. Mencken

#926    TrueBeliever

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:34 PM

View PostCzero 101, on 17 October 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Ok, stopping here for a moment...

What would you say then to someone who claims that the "official story" is a lie, claims that there is evidence to support his claims yet goes to extreme lengths to avoid producing any of that alleged evidence, even going so far as to openly lie about his ability to use a computer as an excuse for not producing links to the evidence he maintains is available and has seen, and continually handwaves away any and all evidence that proves his wrong as part of the Government's "official lie" since the government "has lied before and therefore nothing they say can be looked at as accurate of believable.

Would you want this person arguing on your side of the proverbial fence?

Would you consider it "rude and derogatory" to point out to others that this person has lied in the past, continues to do so, purposely misinterprets or disregards evidence for no other reason than to avoid having to answer tough questions that reveal the falsehood and folly of his position, produces strawman arguments and red herrings to try and avoid having to address the issues presented to him, claims experience and knowledge of the topics under discussion yet when pressed for details, when giving answers to some questions and when giving descriptions of how he thinks events happened or should have happened makes such egregious errors in logic and basic knowledge that it becomes clear that the person really has nothing more (and in some instances, substantially less) than a layman's level of knowledge of the topics he claims personal professional experience in...?



The problem that I see is that there are so many varied and different "conspiracy theories" out there. Some flatly contradict each other. Some require leaps of faith or logic so vast that Evel Knievel himself would balk at making that jump.

More importantly, there isn't one complete theory, imo, that addresses ALL the evidence, that accounts for everything as well as or as completely as what people call the "Official Narrative" or more derogatorily the "Official Lie" or "Official Conspiracy Theory".

Its the same thing with the Moon Landing hoax. There are a few theories that focus on one or two individual oddities or inconsistencies (none of which have ever stood up to any amount of serious scrutiny), but there is nothing that addresses the event in its massively complex entirety, all the facts and figures and mountains of evidence that prove Man went to the Moon.

Sure there are a few oddities and even a few holes (maybe more than a few) in the Official Story, and yeah, there's a good chance we're not being told every single thing about what happened or who knew what exactly when, but until someone can come up with something that addresses all the facts of the day more completely and logically, the "Official Narrative"remains the accepted fact(s) of the day regardless of what you or anyone else thinks or believes.





Cz

I would just wonder why you still aggravate yourself with replying or posting back and forth......lol  

There are lots of wackos...conspiracy minded and otherwise. Choose your battles I say. I don't worry about who argues for 'my' side...I don't look at the pursuit of truth and justice as 'mine'......I don't really care at the end of the day who believes me or listens to me....I just like to encourage people to think and not accept 'official' stories as the truth. If ya don't then fine.....if someone aggravates me too bad I move on.....no biggie really.    
Having an alternative explanation doesn't mean someone is a kookie conspiratorial wacky nut.....sometimes it does;) lol but not always.

I am more offended when high ranking officials lie to me..and give preposterous explanations....but hey that's just me.


#927    skyeagle409

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

One day i hope those with the evidence will be able to speak and then.....then you will KNOW the official story is BULL&*****.

Available evidence does not implicate the U.S. government in the 9/11 attacks, and it has been more than 11 years since the 9/11 attacks, so how long did it take for the Watergate scandal to bring down the Nixon Administration?

Edited by skyeagle409, 17 October 2012 - 09:41 PM.

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#928    skyeagle409

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:41 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I would just wonder why you still aggravate yourself with replying or posting back and forth......lol  

There are lots of wackos...conspiracy minded and otherwise. Choose your battles I say. I don't worry about who argues for 'my' side...I don't look at the pursuit of truth and justice as 'mine'......I don't really care at the end of the day who believes me or listens to me....I just like to encourage people to think and not accept 'official' stories as the truth. If ya don't then fine.....if someone aggravates me too bad I move on.....no biggie really.
Having an alternative explanation doesn't mean someone is a kookie conspiratorial wacky nut.....sometimes it does;) lol but not always.

I am more offended when high ranking officials lie to me..and give preposterous explanations....but hey that's just me.

In regards to 9/11, detail lies of the government.

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#929    Czero 101

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:46 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 17 October 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

I would just wonder why you still aggravate yourself with replying or posting back and forth......lol  

Well, of course I wonder that, too, sometimes, but you'll notice (or maybe you won't *shrug* ) that I tend to ignore the person I was referring to and that Skyeagle was, in your opinion, being "rude and derogatory" to...

As much as I can, anyway... ;) Sometimes the willful ignorance, hypocrisy and constant lies are just too much to ignore....

Quote

There are lots of wackos...conspiracy minded and otherwise. Choose your battles I say. I don't worry about who argues for 'my' side...I don't look at the pursuit of truth and justice as 'mine'......I don't really care at the end of the day who believes me or listens to me....I just like to encourage people to think and not accept 'official' stories as the truth. If ya don't then fine.....if someone aggravates me too bad I move on.....no biggie really.
Having an alternative explanation doesn't mean someone is a kookie conspiratorial wacky nut.....sometimes it does;) lol but not always.

I am more offended when high ranking officials lie to me..and give preposterous explanations....but hey that's just me.
I agree for the most part that there are "whackos" on both ides of this and will also admit that there are people on my "side" that I don't particularly enjoy being associated with simply because we argue the the same side of this particular issue. I tend to keep my distance from them, too...

I agree that being "lied to" by "high ranking officials" is not really a good thing, but then again, it makes one wonder what it is you (or others) are using to make the deduction that you are, in fact. being lied to....?





Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 17 October 2012 - 09:47 PM.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
"I'm tired of ignorance held up as inspiration, where vicious anti-intellectualism is considered a positive trait, and where uninformed opinion is displayed as fact." - Phil Plait
"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." - H. L. Mencken

#930    TrueBeliever

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:11 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 17 October 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

In regards to 9/11, detail lies of the government.

Where do I begin??!! lol

For starters the lack of a legitimate IMO investigation.............and sorry I do not believe WTC 7 fell of it's own accord from fire damage.....amazing isn't it that 3 buildings...2 HUGE skyscrapers fell into their own footprint.......the scrambling of jets....or lack thereof...or shall we say inadequacy of....
....the seemingly willflul headturning and ignoring of warnings and good intel on several of the hijackers........many many times......

The statement Oh we never thought someone would do this! really? besides having had training exercises for it? AND within hours if not minutes stating who the perps were and that the attack FIT their MO.....but of course you never imagine such a thing right?!

and then you have many who were warned not to fly or conveniently had meetings elsewhere.....

and I personally do not think Rumsfeld slipped when he said FL 93 was shot down......

the thing is there is just so much....so much bs,  so much contradiction.....I haven't even presented it clearly and precisely like I would like to..there is just so much when the entire picture is looked at.....it sickens me to the core. I was just at WTC memorial....and I cried as if it had just happened. I am troubled by it to this day...deeply troubled...the audacity and brutality of any and all involved haunts me, angers me, pisses me the eff off! I know there will probably never be justice as far as the whole truth of who and why being revealed........or all the perps being punished, but one can hope I guess that one day......

there is so much more....but it gets complicated :hmm:





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