607 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Paracelse, on 10 February 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

The blood analysis was first written in popularized science book by French author Louis Charpentier in a book titled:  Les Mysteres Basques published in 1975 then reprinted:
http://www.amazon.fr...28856931&sr=8-1

a book I'm rereading now (read it in the late 70's)

Lol, that is the only book I have about the Basques (the first edition)!

 Mystere_Basque.jpg   62.26K   6 downloads

Edited by Abramelin, 10 February 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Paracelse]

Abramelin, on 10 February 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Lol, that is the only book I have about the Basques (the first edition)!

Mystere_Basque.jpg

We have the same copy... I had it in the US but shipped to myself when I moved here

[cormac mac airt]

No, Trojans weren't Basques.

The Basques

Considering that the Basques are, at best, Neolithic in origin then it's meaningless to make any claim as to their descent from Neanderthals who died out c.39,000 BP.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

blackdogsun, on 10 February 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

not to get off topic too much but i just want to clarify that at no time was australia/new guinea (sahul) accessible on foot from s.e. asia (sunda)
it was however only a few miles across a deep straight from the indonesian islands about 24000yrs ago which perhaps may have been just visible on the far horizon and easily accessed by the most primative rafts
http://sahultime.monash.edu.au/ (click on map for interactive app.)

Yes, rightly so, I should have accessed the book first.
"It was possible to walk from Burma to Bali, from New Guinea to Northern Australia but the gap between the Australian continent and Asia remained a land barrier."
Page 30.

That may have been 90,000 years ago though. At 75,000 years the sea was 68-75 metres less than what it is now and this is when they estimate they came in through Timor in light canoes, not on foot.

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 February 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[jmccr8]

jules99, on 10 February 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Hi jmccr8
Heres a map showing sea levels c 18000 years ago at the height of the last ice age;

http://www.ngdc.noaa...veldrop110m.jpg

  Hello Jules99,
  Thanks for the map,did you look at the interactive map that Blackdogsun provided?According to the map the lowest levels are at 23bp there may have been migrations at this time yet they would not account for the peoples already living in Australia,it would seem that at about 65bp would have been another period of lower sea levels however not as low so it would seem that some nautical abilities were needed to arrive.Well I won't draw it of topic any longer.
jmccr8

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 10 February 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

No, Trojans weren't Basques.

The Basques

cormac

I don't think you really know that, even though you think you might.

Legend has them (Trojans) arriving after a great flood, Dardanus founded Dardania, he was a son of Electra, a daughter of Atlas.

Atlas is no where else but in the West, always in the West, holding up the Sky. The myth therefore tells us it was settled by people who had originally been from the Western Ocean.

[Swede]

jmccr8, on 10 February 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

  Hello Jules99,
  Thanks for the map,did you look at the interactive map that Blackdogsun provided?According to the map the lowest levels are at 23bp there may have been migrations at this time yet they would not account for the peoples already living in Australia,it would seem that at about 65bp would have been another period of lower sea levels however not as low so it would seem that some nautical abilities were needed to arrive.Well I won't draw it of topic any longer.
jmccr8

jm - Your general assessment is not altogether incorrect. As always, timelines.

While there is some debate over the timing of the original human habitation of Australia, the timeframe of circa 40 kya to 50 kya would appear to have the most current support. This timeframe would be consistent with understandings regarding the movement of H.s.s. out of Africa (taking into account travel and adaptation to new environments).

If we utilize this timeframe, current studies indicate that a span of some 45-50 miles of open ocean would need to be traversed. Keep in mind that the visual horizon is ~ 14 miles. One must also consider the limited population base in regards to a major population movement.

As an aside, this does bring into question the purported presence of an undocumented bipedal primate with reportedly little or no advanced technological capability on said continent.

.

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 11 February 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

I don't think you really know that, even though you think you might.

Legend has them (Trojans) arriving after a great flood, Dardanus founded Dardania, he was a son of Electra, a daughter of Atlas.

Atlas is no where else but in the West, always in the West, holding up the Sky. The myth therefore tells us it was settled by people who had originally been from the Western Ocean.

None of which is supported by actual evidence whether physical or genetic. Comparative mythology/lego-linguistics, etc., particularly as applied in this forum, is the equivalent of making it up as you go along and presenting it as fact so I can see your interest in it. But it's not something with any scientific credibility to it, nor should it be seen that way.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

The Puzzler, on 11 February 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

I don't think you really know that, even though you think you might.

Legend has them (Trojans) arriving after a great flood, Dardanus founded Dardania, he was a son of Electra, a daughter of Atlas.

Atlas is no where else but in the West, always in the West, holding up the Sky. The myth therefore tells us it was settled by people who had originally been from the Western Ocean.

Cormac already addressed this but I'll weigh in, too. This is the problem: "Legend has them (Trojans)."

Legends are not real history!

Sorry, bit of a tantrum there. Now, it's plausible that some legends might contain a teeny kernel of truth, but that kernel would be buried so deeply in the dusts of time that prying it from its surrounding layers of fiction is nearly impossible. I know how well versed you are on Greek myths, Puzzler--much better versed than I'll ever be--but regarding myths as historically reliable is not a safe practice.

However much you might dislike it, we know what we know about factual history only because of archaeology, linguistics, genetics, and the myriad of other disciplines and sciences applied to the study of ancient civilizations. Had we never developed these means to study the past, we might well still believe Troy was a real event just as Homer recorded it...to name but one example.

[The Puzzler]

kmt_sesh, on 11 February 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

Cormac already addressed this but I'll weigh in, too. This is the problem: "Legend has them (Trojans)."

Legends are not real history!

Sorry, bit of a tantrum there. Now, it's plausible that some legends might contain a teeny kernel of truth, but that kernel would be buried so deeply in the dusts of time that prying it from its surrounding layers of fiction is nearly impossible. I know how well versed you are on Greek myths, Puzzler--much better versed than I'll ever be--but regarding myths as historically reliable is not a safe practice.

However much you might dislike it, we know what we know about factual history only because of archaeology, linguistics, genetics, and the myriad of other disciplines and sciences applied to the study of ancient civilizations. Had we never developed these means to study the past, we might well still believe Troy was a real event just as Homer recorded it...to name but one example.

That's OK kmt, I'm glad to hear your opinion, although I thought you'd answer my refute to your post in the Thera's ash topic, because I believe I did show that Athena and Poseidon were found in Linear B on Crete, contrare to what you thought. I'll just address the mythology issue in this post for now.

We all have our own disciplines, you probably know more about Egypt than I could fit in my little finger but I do know my mythology and I do my Greek and Mediterranean history, what I have read looking for Atlantis on those topics is alot I can just say that. This doesn't mean I'm right or even that this idea has merit but I have pondered this idea for years, it really isn't DIScredible imo, sure, there's barely any evidence but really, what do we have?
A city in a story, that was apparently found, we really don't even know if Hissarlik is Troy or whether Troy even existed, maybe it's just another Atlantis, it's amazing how much truth people actually DO place on myth, it really ingrains to become a historical truth. I'm aware of it and do know myths are tales but they will contain a truthful element in them which will be real history, such as Phaethon, Plato says, it's a myth but is based on a true event, even now we can hardly decipher what the actual Phaethon event was, but it's clearly based in a real event. Point being, they can be real history.

So underneath all the hype in the myth will be found real history and some truth, many people believe this and study this, it's not nonsense to think myths contain truth in a very disorted way.

From Plato, The Laws, Book 3:

Cle. What is that?
Ath. The form which in fact Homer indicates as following the second. This third form arose when, as he says, Dardanus founded Dardania:

For not as yet had the holy Ilium been built on the plain to be a city of speaking men; but they were still dwelling at the foot of many-fountained Ida. For indeed, in these verses, and in what he said of the Cyclopes, he speaks the words of God and nature; for poets are a divine race and often in their strains, by the aid of the Muses and the Graces, they attain truth.

Cle. Yes.
Ath. Then now let us proceed with the rest of our tale, which will probably be found to illustrate in some degree our proposed design:-Shall we do so?

Cle. By all means.
Ath. Ilium was built, when they descended from the mountain, in a large and fair plain, on a sort of low hill, watered by many rivers descending from Ida.

Cle. Such is the tradition.
Ath. And we must suppose this event to have taken place many ages after the deluge?

Ath. A marvellous forgetfulness of the former destruction would appear to have come over them, when they placed their town right under numerous streams flowing from the heights, trusting for their security to not very high hills, either.
http://classics.mit....laws.3.iii.html

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 11 February 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

None of which is supported by actual evidence whether physical or genetic. Comparative mythology/lego-linguistics, etc., particularly as applied in this forum, is the equivalent of making it up as you go along and presenting it as fact so I can see your interest in it. But it's not something with any scientific credibility to it, nor should it be seen that way.

cormac

That is fair enough cormac, but I'm not in this ANCIENT MYSTERIES & ALTERNATIVE HISTORY Forum to provide you with evidence of anything, except to discuss what could have been an alternate history and ingrained in some ancient mysteries, based in many underlying similaries, not nec. found or seen in picking up a piece of broken pottery yesterday. I respect archaeology, I wish I was an archaeologist, and I use it whenever I can, but I'm also aware enough to realise it's not the everything of history.

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 11 February 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

That is fair enough cormac, but I'm not in this ANCIENT MYSTERIES & ALTERNATIVE HISTORY Forum to provide you with evidence of anything, except to discuss what could have been an alternate history and ingrained in some ancient mysteries, based in many underlying similaries, not nec. found or seen in picking up a piece of broken pottery yesterday. I respect archaeology, I wish I was an archaeologist, and I use it whenever I can, but I'm also aware enough to realise it's not the everything of history.

And the flip-side of this is that comparative mythology and lego-linguistics isn't even a beginning. As to your being here to discuss "what could have been", it's rarely put across that way but more often than not presented as if it's (somehow) a foregone conclusion, with as much or more validity than what the actual evidence shows. It's not and most people I know, other than you, apparently understand the distinction.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

The Puzzler, on 11 February 2012 - 04:13 AM, said:

That's OK kmt, I'm glad to hear your opinion, although I thought you'd answer my refute to your post in the Thera's ash topic, because I believe I did show that Athena and Poseidon were found in Linear B on Crete, contrare to what you thought. I'll just address the mythology issue in this post for now...

Doh! I forgot all about that post. Yes, I saw it, and I even found the book in which the translation was noted. In fact, I'm even considering ordering it because it looks interesting. I confess this is the first time I've ever heard mention of gods' names in Linear B, so it shows you what I know. I've done a fair share of reading on the script and how it was deciphered, but clearly I have more reading to do.

My time is also tight as of late, so I don't have a lot of free time to post. I imagine I've missed a number of posts to which I should have responded. I'll be back as soon as I'm able to. Family's in town and there will be training at the museum later in the weekend for a new exhibit coming up, so this weekend is pretty full.

[The Puzzler]

Paracelse, on 10 February 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

Here's what I know about the Basques
http://www.bibliotec...a_basques04.htm

Apparently they were occupying the area way before Troy became hemmm... Troy.

There are theories in France and abroad that Basques are most direct descendant of Neanderthals, which would explain their short stocky statures.
http://www.aoi.com.a...anderbasque.htm

None of which came from official sources but hey, what can I say besides "never trust authority".

However the map showing the Neanderthal territory does includes Turkey and the later position of Troy which would explain some of the similarities in language.

And that area (Troy) is also called Asaland by Snorri Snorrison, the realm of the Nordic Gods.

This is an article about Basques being a descendant of Neanderthals...it's long but whatever, it's interesting.

This theory therefore simultaneously answers a second age-old question, 'What is the Origin of the Basques'?

Robert J Sawyer has recently published his book "Hominids" [2], a fictional account of an interaction between Sapiens humans and Neanderthals, but drawing on the latest scientific research about Neanderthals.

This research included studies of DNA extracted from bones of Neanderthal remains. The account mentions five months of painstaking work to extract a 379-nucleotide fragment from the control region of the Neanderthal's mitochondrial DNA, followed by use of a polymerase chain reaction to reproduce millions of copies of the recovered DNA.

This was carefully sequenced and then a check made of the corresponding mitochondrial DNA from 1,600 modern humans: Native Canadians, Polynesians. Australians, Africans, Asians, and Europeans. Every one of those 1,600 people had at least 371 nucleotides out of those 379 the same; the maximum deviation was just 8 nucleotides.

But the Neanderthal DNA had an average of only 352 nucleotides in common with the modern specimens; it deviated by 27 nucleotides. It was concluded that Homo sapiens and Neanderthals must have diverged from each other between 550,000 and 690,000 years ago for their DNA to be so different.

In contrast, all modern humans probably shared a common ancestor 150,000 or 200,000 years in the past. It was concluded that Neanderthals were probably a fully separate species from modern humans, not just a subspecies: Homo neanderthalensis, not Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

Looking now at the evidence for the theory that the Basques are descended principally from Neanderthals, everything suddenly falls into place, and the supposition becomes almost self-evident.

Location: The 'home country' of the Neanderthals is well known to have been western Europe. One source says that they "dominated this area for at least a quarter of a million years". Many of the best Neanderthal specimens have originated from the Iberian Peninsular. The Basque Country, lying on the western side of the Pyrenees and on the border between Spain and France, fits in neatly with this location.

Goes on to discuss blood groups in detail as well.

Another highly distinguishing feature of the Basques is their language, which is related to no other on earth. According to [3], its ancestor was "spoken in western Europe before (possibly long before) the ancestors of all other modern western European languages". This source states that the most strenuous efforts at finding other relatives for Basque have been complete failures.

People have unsuccessfully tried to connect Basque with Berber, Egyptian and other African languages, with Iberian, Pictish, Etruscan, Minoan, Sumerian, the Finno-Ugric languages, the Caucasian languages, the Semitic languages, with almost all the languages of Africa and Asia, living and dead, and even with languages of the Pacific and of North America. Basque absolutely cannot be shown to be related to any other language at all [3].

The structure of the Basque language is also very distinctive, it is said to contain only nouns, verbs, and suffixes. The language strongly defines the Basque people [8]. In the Basque Language, called Euskera, there is no word for Basque. The only word defining a member of the group is Euskaldun, or Euskera speaker. The land is called Euskal Herria -- the land of Euskera speakers.

Lots more, it concludes:

When the article above was first made available on the Web in 2002, nine years, it contained some perhaps controversial suggestions.

Among these suggestions were that the Neanderthals had not become extinct as a result of competition with 'superior' modern humans; that instead, Neanderthals had merged with other humans to form a mixed, single modern species (Homo sapiens); and that the Basque people of the western Pyrenees had the largest genetic inheritance from the Neanderthals in their DNA.

The influence of blood groups on human inheritance was looked at, and it was explained that while the nuclear DNA (the main DNA considered in inheritance) of Basques might well have more Neanderthal inheritance than average, their mitichondrial DNA (passed on directly from mother to child) might have had all Neanderthal components bred out.

This was because infant haemolytic disease, where a Rhesus-negative mother mating with a Rhesus-positive man was likely to have only a single child survive, would mitigate against outbreeding Basque women having many descendants.

Nine years on, these suggestions are no longer controversial, and are becoming widely accepted. For example, a recent article [13] says:


People of European descent may be 5% Neanderthal, according to a DNA study that questions whether modern humans left Africa and replaced all other existing hominids.


It also mentions:


The researchers agree with recent studies that conclude Neanderthals did not contribute any mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA, genetic material that is passed from mothers to children.
http://www.aoi.com.a...anderbasque.htm

------------------------------

It's not just Basques imo either, it was originally the Western Atlantic seaboard people of Spain as well, were adept enough at sailing to have sailed into the Med and settled numerous early cultures.

But in the Basque language I found words that seem to point to place names in Troy (Ilium) and the area of Iberia in the Caucasus being so named as another Basque word, with root of Iber, river, named because of the large River Phasis that went into Colchis. The Sun city, the Basques are known to have a Sun worship. Apollo is equal to a Sun God, just as his twin sister Diana/Artemis is a moon Goddess, it's dark and light, day and night. This was the Trojan deity, the Iliad opens with the mention of Apollo.
"Sons of Atreus," he cried, "and all other Achaeans, may the gods who dwell in Olympus grant you to sack the city of Priam, and to reach your homes in safety; but free my daughter, and accept a ransom for her, in reverence to Apollo, son of Jove."

As far as religion is concerned the direction in which corpses were pointed leads us to believe there was some kind of sun worship.


Part of the problem also is the complete taking over of Europe by another people...

Archaeological and ethnographic findings indicate that Basque man evolved from Cro-Magnon man in this area over a period dating from about 40,000 years ago until distinct features were acquired approximately 7,000 years ago. Two thousand years later the sheep, not native to these lands, was introduced and horse and cattle farming came into being, as shown by Adolf Staffe. These circumstances made it necessary for the people to travel periodically and cultural contacts were thus made.

This period in the history of the Basque people can only make sense if it is studied in conjunction with the cultures of the surrounding areas, in the basin of the River Ebro and the region of Aquitaine.

Jose Miguel de Barandiaran states "This area is of particular importance in Basque archaeology and linguistic history as it coincides with the area of seasonal migration of flocks in search of pastures in the Pyrenees and where Basque place names are found in general." Luis Michelena reports that the Basque language has been spoken by these peoples since around 6,000 B.C. Basque was spoken in the whole of South Aquitaine and eastwards, to inside Catalonia (proved by inscriptions and place names). From the sixth century B.C. Indo-European culture wiped out all the pre-Indo-European languages spoken in Europe up to that time, with the exception of the Basque language.

Serious cultural and political problems arose from the above circumstances.


This well-defined pre-historic Basque people began to feature in history. The worst thing that can happen to a people is for it not to write its own history as this means such a people is at the mercy of other historians. The first news of the Basque people comes to us through the ancient geographers, in particular Pliny and Ptolemy. The "Journey of Antoninus" mentions names that indicate that the land of the Basques extended, not only to Aquitaine in the north but also far down the River Ebro to the south.
http://dametzdesign.com/euzkadi.html

Edited by The Puzzler, 11 February 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[The Puzzler]

kmt_sesh, on 11 February 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

Doh! I forgot all about that post. Yes, I saw it, and I even found the book in which the translation was noted. In fact, I'm even considering ordering it because it looks interesting. I confess this is the first time I've ever heard mention of gods' names in Linear B, so it shows you what I know. I've done a fair share of reading on the script and how it was deciphered, but clearly I have more reading to do.

My time is also tight as of late, so I don't have a lot of free time to post. I imagine I've missed a number of posts to which I should have responded. I'll be back as soon as I'm able to. Family's in town and there will be training at the museum later in the weekend for a new exhibit coming up, so this weekend is pretty full.