81 replies to this topic

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Murder's a serious sin and it is also a serious crime. Even if the murder is religiously motivated. Would you expect a muslim that committed an 'honor killing' to get a free pass because their religion oks it?

Religion does not work as an excuse to murder people freely.

The Bible tells us all sinners can be saved if they repent except those that have bad mouthed God.

I personally want as many people to get to into heaven as possible so I dont believe in stoning anyone to death. If you kill them theres no chance for them to overcome their sinfull state and repent.

[TheLastLazyGun]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Thankfully christians don't control the country

Yes, they do.  Our Head of Government and Head of State are Christians.  Our Head of State is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

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and not every christian believes as you do.

Most do.  And why are you up in arms about a Christian being anti-homosexual?  Why does it surprise you so much?  Christianity and other religions teach that homosexuality is a sin.

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During the consultation prcess several christian groups actually wanted same sex amrriags to happen

So?  The vast majority don't.

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and wanted to perform them (hence religious marriages beig allowed)

Most Christian establishments in Britain do NOT want to perform same sex marriages.  Churches were so up in arms about the prospect of them performing gay marriage against the teaches of Christianity that, in the unlikely event that gay marriage is legalised in Britain, Christian churches will not be forced to perform them.

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Dealing with gay marriage doesn't mean the goverment's not dealing with the economy, immigration and europe and other issues anymore than when the goverment tackles any other issue. Of course the other issues are important, but the government doesn't grind to a halt to deal with one issue at a time. If that was the case the government would be pretty ineffective.

It has been pointed out that the Government is wrong to make gay marriage a priority.  It is something which affects only a tiny minority of the people (0.4%) and that the government should be concentrating on more important and relevant issues which affect almost everybody such as the EUSSR, immigration and the economy.  Polls even show that homosexuals - most of whom are AGAINST gay marriage - also think the government is wrong to make gay marriage a priority.

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The majority of gay people (when asked) are in favor, I dunno where you've got that from.

There have been polls which have shown that most gays are against gay marriage and that they do not see why the government is focussing on what is, compared to immigration, the EUSSR and the economy, a non-issue.

Not only that, but a ComRes for Catholic Voices between 17 April and 20 May has shown that just 27% of gay people in Britain would consider getting married should the law permit it.  The same poll shows that only 39 per cent of British gay people think redefining marriage is a priority for gay people, while only half say it is important to them personally.  This shows that the Government is almost wasting its time in trying to legalise gay marriage.

And in a blow for the gay rights lobby, the survey reveals that fewer than half of gay people accept Stonewall’s main argument for same-sex marriage, that a legal distinction between civil partnerships and same-sex marriage perpetuates discrimination.

The poll reveals the likely take-up in the event of marriage being opened to same-sex couples. On the basis of the 2010 ONS figures, the Government is proposing a radical redefinition of everyone’s marriage for the sake of 0.4% of the population!!!

Among the survey's most significant findings:

• More than a quarter (26%) believe there is no need to change the law on marriage because civil partnerships give the same rights, while fewer than half agree with Stonewall’s view that not allowing same-sex marriage worsens public attitudes to gay people.

• Almost half believe “David Cameron is only trying to extend marriage to LGBT people to make his party look more compassionate rather than because of his convictions”, while only 19% disagree.

• More than two-thirds (77%) of gay people disagree that marriage should be only between a man and a woman, and the same number (72%) believe “marriage is more about love between two people than it is about rearing children”.

• But only half (50%) of the LGB population think it is important to extend marriage to same-sex couples, while just over one in four (27%) would marry their partner if the law allowed it – just one percentage point more than those not in a civil partnership who would seriously consider one.

• A clear majority (61%) of gay people believe that “true equality” would mean same-sex couples could marry in religious, as well as civil, locations – and a third (35%) believe in forcing faith groups to perform same-sex weddings.

The poll shows that for gay people this is very far from being an pressing issue of human rights, equality and discrimination. Gay people do not regard same-sex marriage as a priority, and show no more enthusiasm for it than for civil partnerships, which give the same legal advantages. Most gay people do not believe they are discriminated against by not being able to marry.

http://www.catholicv...me-sex-marriage

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No one is trying to underimine traditional marriage

The Left, such as Labour and the LibDems, are.  The Tories are, rightfully, trying to encourage heterosexual marriage by introducing tax breaks for married couples, something which Clegg and Miliband are very much against.  The Left do not want to encourage heterosexual marriage - but bizarrely do everything they can to encourage gay marriage.

In my view, and the view of experts, children should be brought up by a mother and a father - prefereably a MARRIED mother and father - and they should not be being brought up by two fathers or two mothers.

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Also you would do well to recall that traditional marriage (as we know it) is actually a fairly new concept. For the most part marriages have had nothing to do with love and the woman had no say in who they married. Do you honestly want marriage to take a time warp and become static? And do you honestly think that married hetrosexuals would support you?

Traditional married has always been between a man and a woman and two people of the same gender should not be allowed to get married.

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However there is an act of parliament that can get around the house of lords decision and the equalities minister has said they were willing to use it if necessary so it really is a childish, empty threat.

There is nothing childish about a threat to stop a Bill proposing gay marriage from becoming law.  If people don't agree with gay marriage then they have every right to try and stop it becoming legalised.

I know it shocks you, but Christianity and other religions teach that homosexuality is a sin so why are you surprised by the anti-gay marriage attitude of the clergy in the Lords?

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 07 February 2013 - 05:10 PM.

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

The Bible tells us all sinners can be saved if they repent except those that have bad mouthed God.

I personally want as many people to get to into heaven as possible so I dont believe in stoning anyone to death. If you kill them theres no chance for them to overcome their sinfull state and repent.

Sounds like a pretty petty god if the worst crime is bad mouthing him. I can think, off the top of my head, a few things which most people consider worse. Murder, rape, genocide, pedophilia to name a few but nope bad mouthing god's worse.

I doubt that.

[Sky Scanner]

TheLastLazyGun, on 07 February 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

The bishops would not be voting against the will of the nation.  The majority of the British people are AGAINST gay marriage.

The last poll I see said 42% against, 40% for, and 18% undecided. That would put the majority as a mixture of 'for and undecided'. What poll are you talking about?

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Sounds like a pretty petty god if the worst crime is bad mouthing him. I can think, off the top of my head, a few things which most people consider worse. Murder, rape, genocide, pedophilia to name a few but nope bad mouthing god's worse.

I doubt that.

When someone goes around bad mouthing God - 'God isnt real because of this, that and the other' its the beginning of the decay of society. It leads to the murder, rape, genocide and paedophillia.

Sky Scanner, on 07 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

The last poll I see said 42% against, 40% for, and 18% undecided. That would put the majority as a mixture of 'for and undecided'. What poll are you talking about?

Thats clearly against because out of the 40% who are undecided it requires just 9% to vote against.

[Tiggs]

TheLastLazyGun, on 07 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

The poll reveals the likely take-up in the event of marriage being opened to same-sex couples. On the basis of the 2010 ONS figures, the Government is proposing a radical redefinition of everyone’s marriage for the sake of 0.4% of the population!!!

So what?

Or let me put it another way: What percentage of the population would you demand had to comprise of interracial couples who wanted to get married before you'd allow legislation for interracial marriage to pass?

If you're only willing to give civil rights to a majority - then you're missing the point.

[shadowhive]

TheLastLazyGun, on 07 February 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

Yes, they do.  Our Head of Government and Head of State are Christians.  Our Head of State is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

Yet the laws of the land are not dominated by the bible. Atheists and people of other faiths aren't persecuted for their non-belief in christianity.

Things that are sinful in the bible are not automatically illegal.

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Most do.  And why are you up in arms about a Christian being anti-homosexual?  Why does it surprise you so much?  Christianity and other religions teach that homosexuality is a sin.

It doesnt surprise m. What surprises me is how blindly people do things their religion says.

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So?  The vast majority don't.

Correction: the vast majority of religions leaders don't. The vast majority of believers when polled aren't as against gay people as you'd think.

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Most Christian establishments in Britain do NOT want to perform same sex marriages.  Churches were so up in arms about the prospect of them performing gay marriage against the teaches of Christianity that, in the unlikely event that gay marriage is legalised in Britain, Christian churches will not be forced to perform them.

Which is why the government has put in locks so they can't be forced. NOWHERE where same sex marriage has been legalised has a church been forced to marrry a gay couple. Just like a divorced coupe can't force the catholic church to marry them.

The church has nothing to worry about and to say otherwise is simply scaremongering.

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It has been pointed out that the Government is wrong to make gay marriage a priority.  It is something which affects only a tiny minority of the people (0.4%) and that the government should be concentrating on more important and relevant issues which affect almost everybody such as the EUSSR, immigration and the economy.  Polls even show that homosexuals - most of whom are AGAINST gay marriage - also think the government is wrong to make gay marriage a priority.

The government's not making it a priority, it's simply doing it. The way you talk you'd think they weren't doing anything else until it was passed, which is simply not the case at all.

The government deals on issues that effect both the majority and the minority The government has in the past discussed bills about students and the disabled. Both are groups which are the minority compared to the rest of the population, but that hasn't made the issues any less important.

Like I said, the govermnet can deal with multiple issues. The government spent one day debating same sex marriage. Do you even know what they discussed the day before or after or even today?

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There have been polls which have shown that most gays are against gay marriage and that they do not see why the government is focussing on what is, compared to immigration, the EUSSR and the economy, a non-issue.

Not only that, but a ComRes for Catholic Voices between 17 April and 20 May has shown that just 27% of gay people would consider getting married should the law permit it.  The same poll shows that only 39 per cent of British gay people think redefining marriage is a priority for gay people, while only half say it is important to them personally.  This shows that the Government is almost wasting itstime in trying to legalise gay marriage.

And in a blow for the gay rights lobby, the survey reveals that fewer than half of gay people accept Stonewall’s main argument for same-sex marriage, that a legal distinction between civil partnerships and same-sex marriage perpetuates discrimination.

The poll reveals the likely take-up in the event of marriage being opened to same-sex couples. On the basis of the 2010 ONS figures, the Government is proposing a radical redefinition of everyone’s marriage for the sake of 0.4% of the population!!!

Among the survey's most significant findings:

• More than a quarter (26%) believe there is no need to change the law on marriage because civil partnerships give the same rights, while fewer than half agree with Stonewall’s view that not allowing same-sex marriage worsens public attitudes to gay people.

• Almost half believe “David Cameron is only trying to extend marriage to LGBT people to make his party look more compassionate rather than because of his convictions”, while only 19% disagree.

• More than two-thirds (77%) of gay people disagree that marriage should be only between a man and a woman, and the same number (72%) believe “marriage is more about love between two people than it is about rearing children”.

• But only half (50%) of the LGB population think it is important to extend marriage to same-sex couples, while just over one in four (27%) would marry their partner if the law allowed it – just one percentage point more than those not in a civil partnership who would seriously consider one.

• A clear majority (61%) of gay people believe that “true equality” would mean same-sex couples could marry in religious, as well as civil, locations – and a third (35%) believe in forcing faith groups to perform same-sex weddings.

The poll shows that for gay people this is very far from being an pressing issue of human rights, equality and discrimination. Gay people do not regard same-sex marriage as a priority, and show no more enthusiasm for it than for civil partnerships, which give the same legal advantages. Most gay people do not believe they are discriminated against by not being able to marry.

http://www.catholicv...me-sex-marriage

I'd like very much to see what the poll questions actually were. Since the poll was comissioned by a catholic group, there's a strong possibility of bias on their part and the questions might show it.
That's also the same poll that I mentioned before, that used a vague question as part of it's poll.

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The Left, such as Labour and the LibDems, are.  The Tories are, rightfully, trying to encourage heterosexual marriage by introducing tax breaks for married couples, something which Clegg and Miliband are very much against.  The Left do not want to encourage heterosexual marriage - but bizarrely do everything they can to encourage gay marriage.

In my view, and the view of experts, children should be brought up by a mother and a father - prefereably a MARRIED mother and father - and they should not be being brought up by two fathers or two mothers.

I don't disagree that marriage should be encouraged. This may surprise you, but I do believe marriage is an important instution.

The problem with that is that it's an expectation that can't be applied across the board. If one or both parents are abusive, then that's not the best environmnet for them. If one parent dies, they kid shouldn't be removed from the surviing one if the surviving one doesn't remarry.

Also experts have shown that two mothers and two fathers can be just as capable as a hetrosexual couple.

The key thing to remmeber is this. There is more than one type of family out there and raising one above the rest carelessly damages the rest. What's most important for a child is not the number of parents but that who they have cares for and loves them.

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Traditional married has always been between a man and a woman and two people of the same gender should not be allowed to get married.

Like I said marriage used to mean a lot of other, negative things. Why should we not bring those back? After all marital rape (for insance) has been an acceptable practice for most of the time marriage has existed and was only recently made illegal.

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There is nothing childish about a threat to stop a Bill proposing gay marriage from becoming law.  If people don't agree with gay marriage then they have every right to try and stop it becoming legalised.

I know it shocks you, but Christianity and other religions teach that homosexuality is a sin so why are you surprised by the anti-gay marriage attitude of the clergy in the Lords?

It strikes me as incredibly childish and anti-democratic for a law to be stopped because 'x religion says so'.

It doesn't shock me, it does disappoint me. Mostly because (and this will shock you) laws are not dependant on what christianity says on the matter.

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

When someone goes around bad mouthing God - 'God isnt real because of this, that and the other' its the beginning of the decay of society. It leads to the murder, rape, genocide and paedophillia.

One does not lead to the other.

Christians have proven quite capable of doing all four of those things without bad mouthing god first.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

It strikes me as incredibly childish and anti-democratic for a law to be stopped because 'x religion says so'.

It doesn't shock me, it does disappoint me. Mostly because (and this will shock you) laws are not dependant on what christianity says on the matter.

Dont Christains have a vote too in a Democracy?

Or shall we just ignore them because they dont count if they believe in God. Thats the slippery path to totalitarianism.

[Sky Scanner]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Thats clearly against because out of the 40% who are undecided it requires just 9% to vote against.

Which they haven't, so you can't assume they have to make your figures work.

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

One does not lead to the other.

Christians have proven quite capable of doing all four of those things without bad mouthing god first.

Criminal would-be's need fear installing in them to help them obey the law.

Burning in hell is a good deterrant. Thats missing if they dont believe in God because they listened to someone spreading negativity about religion.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 07 February 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:

The Bible tells us all sinners can be saved if they repent except those that have bad mouthed God.

I personally want as many people to get to into heaven as possible so I dont believe in stoning anyone to death. If you kill them theres no chance for them to overcome their sinfull state and repent.

Based on the grossly misguided belief that you have to be religious to be moral.
History tells us that some of the most immoral people are also the most religious.

You see there is no connection between religion and morality.

Br Cornelius

[shadowhive]

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Dont Christains have a vote too in a Democracy?

Or shall we just ignore them because they dont count if they believe in God. Thats the slippery path to totalitarianism.

Ah you're twisting my words.

We live in a society. There are many people here living side by side of different religions as well as none. Now why should everyone follow what one religion says, even if they're not a part of it? That sounds like totalitarism to me.

We have, shamefully, had those regimes before Where one sect of christianity held all the power and anyone else could be locked up. That was shameful and shouldn't be allowed to happen again.

Politics and religion need to be kept seperate..

Mr Right Wing, on 07 February 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Criminal would-be's need fear installing in them to help them obey the law.

Burning in hell is a good deterrant. Thats missing if they dont believe in God because they listened to someone spreading negativity about religion.

It's not an effective enough deterent, considering criminals still exist even in christian societies.

Edited by shadowhive, 07 February 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Sky Scanner]

As for the polls, read this (for the uk polling report)...there was a difference in the percentages depending on how the question was posed, but not much difference (and still in favour), and when the question was put simply as: "Gay couples should have an equal right to get married, not just to have civil partnerships", it got a 65% yes.

http://ukpollingrepo...g/archives/4984

[Mr Right Wing]

shadowhive, on 07 February 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

It's not an effective enough deterent, considering criminals still exist even in christian societies.

Its not 100% effective because religious people can sin too.