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Nature/God


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#16    SpiritWriter

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostXingWi, on 10 January 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:



discern what from what? And how do you discern?

Discern in the spirit which was given to me by God. I listen to god in the spirit. I discern what I agree with and what I dont, just like I do with the bible. I am not one to think that I must  believe everything someone else believes just because it is said to be christian or comes from the pastor or bible. Reading from other cultures tells the story of mankind. We understand the evolution of thought and myth and glean from what is good from those teachings.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#17    Beany

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:07 AM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 10 January 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Myself included Beany, To me Nature implys(IMO) ALL that is. How can a galaxy not be... natural lol.

But I see how one must make that clear. It is very easy to say nature, and only mean the nature of earth.

However as my belief is everything is ONE.. I can't say god is IN creation... he is creation. He is you and I, the birds the bees, the flowers and the trees, the moon up above... Oh yes, and that thing called Love. lol

But as we are expeciencing ourselfs as well ourselfs, then the saying can be he/she is IN all creation.

I agree that of semantics may be the Key...

Kind Regards,
Me :)

Whatever it's called, creation, god, nature, the divine, spirit, maybe it's all the same thing but we use different words for it. The difference for me is the dogma around god or any other name for a deity. All the words around it confuse me instead of bringing clarity, and for me so little of it makes any sense. But I've always sort of felt my way through this kind of stuff, and it's rare that I can read something and have it resonate, or feel true, or sound true. When I find it I hang on to it. For me nature/creation/god/divine/intelligent energy is most important or I'm more aware of it when I experience it instead of thinking about it. It seems like there's no amount of words that would sufficiently describe that experience, and language becomes a barrier instead of a vehicle.


#18    Likely Guy

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:13 AM

View Postdan-paul-mark, on 10 January 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

i tend really not to have an opinion on such things, however what i would like to know is how that christains and other people in religion often use the human eye as an argument saying how can such an intricate amazing and beautiful thing not have a designer. they believe that such a thing could not be spawned from nothing. this is fair enough however i find it hard to percieve as how is it anymore likely that the idea could be spawned from nothing in the mind of a designer? would ike to know oppions on this if anyone has one that could enlighten me.

I'm curious too. There are many other organisms whose eyes are superior to ours. :)


#19    dan-paul-mark

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:27 AM

expanding on that point, another thing that bothers me is the vast variation of all creatures and how mow many there are and how some are very similar whereas others aren't, it seems very randomised for a designer. it seems much more likely that a conscienceless force such as nature would create such a random world rather than a rational designer. and why a designer would create humans such as myself wired in a way that would struggle to comprehend its exsistance.

Edited by dan-paul-mark, 10 January 2013 - 05:28 AM.


#20    XingWi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 10 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Discern in the spirit which was given to me by God. I listen to god in the spirit. I discern what I agree with and what I dont, just like I do with the bible. I am not one to think that I must  believe everything someone else believes just because it is said to be christian or comes from the pastor or bible. Reading from other cultures tells the story of mankind. We understand the evolution of thought and myth and glean from what is good from those teachings.


Sorry but all this sounds like a load of hogwash. If you discern what you agree with from what you don't then it is a discernment that had already taken place in your mind prior to coming across the object in question irrespective of the attributes of the object. This does not make a bit of sense. Where is any logic in that? Basically you are saying that something is good in reality if you agree that it is good and something is bad if you don't. Sorry but the world does not run by your homemade rules. Your perception does not change the reality... it is your own illusion. All you have with you is your own illusion and the object in question retains its attributes irrespective of your illusion.

How do you know that it is God that is speaking to you and not someone/something else? There have been people (and still are) who claim to have listened to "god" (like you claim you do) but turns out that this "god" asked them to do horrendous acts like kidnapping and sacrificing children to some deity and many other such acts. Happens a lot especially in the eastern countries and many times these people do carry out what was commanded to them by this "god". Do you believe in Satan? If so do you believe that he can appear as god to deceive you? Or is it that you have discarded that part of bible too because you don't "agree" with it?

And if you are applying this flawed logic in cherry picking from the scriptures then basically you are saying that God has revealed only what you agree with and what you don't agree with, God never revealed that. This is illogical or rather a deluded belief. It is like you are obliging God to reveal only what you agree with. The fact is, it is cherry picking from the scriptures what suits you and throwing away what does not suit you. It boils down to this.

If that is the case then why follow the scripture at all? Claiming to be so "devout" Christian to even experience the "visions" yet not following the scriptures is hypocritical to say the least.

Yes it is true that God has revealed to man since the begining of time and scriptures affirm that but at the same time these scriptures also mention very clearly that Satan was not sitting idle all this time. He was leading mankind to false religions making them worship false dieties. If you believe in any of the Abrahamic scriptures then you will have to believe in this too.

You claim to like the idea that God is nature in reality, and you also mentioned Hinduism. The same argument is made by Hindus. As you claim to have read about these cultures, can you share your opinion about worshipping the sun, the moon or the stars or even phallic worship that is done in Hinduism?

Can you explain how the same God can censure such worships and approve them at the same time? Isn't it obvious that the sources of these different religions are different?

Times are indeed changing and people are coming closer but not because they are "connected" to God but because people are increasingly rejecting the religions and moving towards secularism and thereby coming closer. You can go ahead and believe whatever you wish to believe but the fact remains that many fundamental beliefs of these religions are mutually exclusive and there is no reconciliation. It is understandable that one should respect beliefs of others and even learn about them and their culture, so that we can all get along. Not that we need to compromise our beliefs for that. It can be achieved without doing that.

Edited by XingWi, 11 January 2013 - 04:52 AM.


#21    Beany

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:43 AM

I prefer a charismatic or direct experience of the divine, or to use a Christian term, an epiphany. It dispenses with language, dogma, and often overrides one's preconceptions and fixed ideas. Sometimes the mind isn't the best tool for perception, sometimes the heart and body wisdom inform us without the need for words. This is usually where i find my truth. And no, nature isn't in us, we ARE nature, or a part of her.We are many other things, as well, but we are a product of Mother Nature.

I think what SpiritWriter was saying was that she believes she recognizes what she perceives to be good/ true when she sees it, hears it, reads it, experiences it, instead of the other way around, and relies on her own judgement & perceptions & discernment instead of that of others. This strikes me as a responsible act. and while perception might not change reality, it usually changes the way we see and understand reality. I think the Hindu belief that god is nature might possibly be true, but that has nothing to do with whether they worship the sun, moon, or phallic symbols, although phallic symbols are representative of male regeneration and fertility, and I see nothing wrong with that. The body, any part of the body can be sacred of profane, depending on context, while the sun represents male energy and life-giving light & energy, and the moon is associated with women's wisdom, intuition, and the cycles of the tides, planting, etc. That doesn't strike me as profane either, as the divine is everywhere and in everything, and by honoring all of creation we also honor that which created it.


#22    XingWi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostBeany, on 11 January 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

I prefer a charismatic or direct experience of the divine, or to use a Christian term, an epiphany. It dispenses with language, dogma, and often overrides one's preconceptions and fixed ideas. Sometimes the mind isn't the best tool for perception, sometimes the heart and body wisdom inform us without the need for words. This is usually where i find my truth. And no, nature isn't in us, we ARE nature, or a part of her.We are many other things, as well, but we are a product of Mother Nature.

You are entitled to your beliefs and your ways of discovering the true God. But the trancendence of God and pantheism are two opposing beliefs and there is no reconciliation. It is a fact.

View PostBeany, on 11 January 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

I think what SpiritWriter was saying was that she believes she recognizes what she perceives to be good/ true when she sees it, hears it, reads it, experiences it, instead of the other way around, and relies on her own judgement & perceptions & discernment instead of that of others. This strikes me as a responsible act. and while perception might not change reality, it usually changes the way we see and understand reality.


Please read her post again. Her words do not impy what you are interpreting here. :)

My point is why people wear the garb of Christianity if they do not follow the scriptures or cherry pick from them to suit their desires. If they believe that the scriptures of Christianity are corrupted then they are free to follow the religion which they believe has intact scriptures. But complaining that the church has "rearranged" and "cut up" scriptures for its own interest and then these very people who complain this do this very act by cherry picking what suits their interest is nothing less than hypocricy.



View PostBeany, on 11 January 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

I think the Hindu belief that god is nature might possibly be true, but that has nothing to do with whether they worship the sun, moon, or phallic symbols, although phallic symbols are representative of male regeneration and fertility, and I see nothing wrong with that. The body, any part of the body can be sacred of profane, depending on context, while the sun represents male energy and life-giving light & energy, and the moon is associated with women's wisdom, intuition, and the cycles of the tides, planting, etc. That doesn't strike me as profane either, as the divine is everywhere and in everything, and by honoring all of creation we also honor that which created it.

Of course that has to do with their nature worshiping. Pantheism is one of the fundamental beliefs of Hinduism. With that only they justify all these worships. Worshipping the sun, the moon or cows or snakes or monkeys or lingam or yoni all this is just an extension of pantheism.

It's not about whether their belief is true or false. But I ask you this, do you see any reconciliation between trancendental monotheism and pantheism? Setting aside for a while the argument which belief is "true", don't you think that the sources of these religions are different?

Edited by XingWi, 11 January 2013 - 06:36 AM.


#23    SpiritWriter

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:




Sorry but all this sounds like a load of hogwash. If you discern what you agree with from what you don't then it is a discernment that had already taken place in your mind prior to coming across the object in question irrespective of the attributes of the object. This does not make a bit of sense. Where is any logic in that? Basically you are saying that something is good in reality if you agree that it is good and something is bad if you don't. Sorry but the world does not run by your homemade rules. Your perception does not change the reality... it is your own illusion. All you have with you is your own illusion and the object in question retains its attributes irrespective of your illusion.


I thank god that he has given me good sence . Homemade rules? I dont know about that im just a simple human but im not dumb and im not gonna run around like "im so dumb I cant think for myself, I cant figure anything out, I know god made me but he must have made me retarded cuz what I believe is just illusion." No actually I was born with a brain... God is inside of me. You and nobody can take that away from me. I would be a fool to allow you to make me think that all I know and perceive is an illusion.


View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:


How do you know that it is God that is speaking to you and not someone/something else? There have been people (and still are) who claim to have listened to "god" (like you claim you do) but turns out that this "god" asked them to do horrendous acts like kidnapping and sacrificing children to some deity and many other such acts. Happens a lot especially in the eastern countries and many times these people do carry out what was commanded to them by this "god". Do you believe in Satan? If so do you believe that he can appear as god to deceive you? Or is it that you have discarded that part of bible too because you don't "agree" with it?


Ok xi you are getting extreme. If I heard voices telling me to kidnap children or kill people I would know it is satan yes I believe in satan because as you already know ive dealt with demons before... I know that there is darkness and there is light this is not just a physical attribute but a matter of principle as well. God is good. The devil is a destroyer. God is love and the devil is hate. The devil would try to take god away from the believer but that is impossible without gods permission. So far hes had my back and i have faith hes not going anywhere. God is good all the time. I guard my spirit conciously and am in constant communion with the god head through christ. I know the devil can deceive thats why I stay guarded.


View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

And if you are applying this flawed logic in cherry picking from the scriptures then basically you are saying that God has revealed only what you agree with and what you don't agree with, God never revealed that. This is illogical or rather a deluded belief. It is like you are obliging God to reveal only what you agree with. The fact is, it is cherry picking from the scriptures what suits you and throwing away what does not suit you. It boils down to this.

The bible is hella old. God speaks to his people now in present day..do you really think that isnt true? Is god stuck in the bible.. is the promised counselor null and void and all us sinful humans have the capability of hearing in the spirit is the devil... no... god is real my friend. I know you know that please listen to what your saying. .. we all cherry pick from scripture im sure you dont comply 100 percent im not going to get into the age old analogies im sure youve heard it before... god has revealed to me things they dont teach in the churches. Because the religion is so old and has that sheeplike mentality not to think for themselves. I dont feel like im abnormally blessed but like I said before I do have a brain. God didnt give it to me to disregard the thoughts hes given me. This is the mentality I cant stand about the church. If I would listen to you I wouldn't know god at all, id just be trying to know god.

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

If that is the case then why follow the scripture at all? Claiming to be so "devout" Christian to even experience the "visions" yet not following the scriptures is hypocritical to say the least.


Are you trying to take christianity away from me because I dont fit into your mold. If so you have more problems than your accusing me of having. You shoukd view me as your sister in the lord but your basically accusing me of taking up with the devil. Yes I am a devout christian. Im devout to god and not to man. Religion is made and governed by man. I made my own religion and I know god now better than I have ever before in my life. Praise god and hallelujah.. im very happy about that. You cant take the scriptures away from me either. They'ree just as much mine as they are yours. You take comfort being inside the fence. God has sent me out into the fields beyond the pasture. I took my nose out of the book and got some real spiritual food. In your spiritual walk have you noticed that god doesn't do the same thing in the same way? He is constantly surprising us.. and surprise im not like you.
Dont say I dont follow the scriptures. I do follow scriptures and yes I did have visions...

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:


Yes it is true that God has revealed to man since the begining of time and scriptures affirm that but at the same time these scriptures also mention very clearly that Satan was not sitting idle all this time. He was leading mankind to false religions making them worship false dieties. If you believe in any of the Abrahamic scriptures then you will have to believe in this too.

You claim to like the idea that God is nature in reality, and you also mentioned Hinduism. The same argument is made by Hindus. As you claim to have read about these cultures, can you share your opinion about worshipping the sun, the moon or the stars or even phallic worship that is done in Hinduism?


I am christian. Just because I said I read from other cultures doesn't make me another religion. But reading about them does help me to understand wheee differnt people got thier beliefs from. I believe in the mother god and the father god. I can appreciate how different cultures came up with thier ideas so far as what I have read about them. Like I said before I dont think the true god was seperate from anyone.. they had different names and attributes and some things in my view are evil, and that goes back to the dark and the light and the principalities but I also think somethings about christianity arent right either and that is why we must discern...

I dont worship the sun and moon but I understand how someone would see thier power. I believe god is higher than that but if someone else was brought to a place where that makes sence for them then I say god brought them there and it is for a reason. And phallic worship thats probably a very old custom and if people do that now its probably just for sex but your worried about what I do right... anyway... I think I answered your question.

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Can you explain how the same God can censure such worships and approve them at the same time? Isn't it obvious that the sources of these different religions are different?

God is a diverse god. I dont have all the answers but I know there are people in different religions and I belueve god put them there. There are some things from these religions that are missing from christianity and there are somethings from thier religions that are missing what is offered through christianity. I think the time is changing for a coming together in understanding.

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:


Times are indeed changing and people are coming closer but not because they are "connected" to God but because people are increasingly rejecting the religions and moving towards secularism and thereby coming closer. You can go ahead and believe whatever you wish to believe but the fact remains that many fundamental beliefs of these religions are mutually exclusive and there is no reconciliation. It is understandable that one should respect beliefs of others and even learn about them and their culture, so that we can all get along. Not that we need to compromise our beliefs for that. It can be achieved without doing that.


God is in charge of revealing himself. He did so for me so this disconnection your talking about gods responsible for that too... I am not compromising my beliefs. If I did id be bowing down to man and letting him decide which direction I go. I will follow god. You have your way I have mine.... its all good ;)

You can reply if you want I dont mind talking more...

Sorry for the typos

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#24    XingWi

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

I thank god that he has given me good sence . Homemade rules? I dont know about that im just a simple human but im not dumb and im not gonna run around like "im so dumb I cant think for myself, I cant figure anything out, I know god made me but he must have made me retarded cuz what I believe is just illusion." No actually I was born with a brain... God is inside of me. You and nobody can take that away from me. I would be a fool to allow you to make me think that all I know and perceive is an illusion.

Never said that all you know is your illusion but the criteria you have with you to discern doesn't change the reality and hence your perception that something is good just because you agree that it is good does not change the reality of what that thing is and in that way it often becomes just an illusion.


View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Ok xi you are getting extreme. If I heard voices telling me to kidnap children or kill people I would know it is satan yes I believe in satan because as you already know ive dealt with demons before... I know that there is darkness and there is light this is not just a physical attribute but a matter of principle as well. God is good. The devil is a destroyer. God is love and the devil is hate. The devil would try to take god away from the believer but that is impossible without gods permission. So far hes had my back and i have faith hes not going anywhere. God is good all the time. I guard my spirit conciously and am in constant communion with the god head through christ. I know the devil can deceive thats why I stay guarded.

And if that voice told you to embrace all the religions as equally made by the same true God Himself would you still believe that it is god? oh wait... but you already did. But then how do you bring together the mutually exclusives? The devil is the destroyer but also a deceiver so he may not appear as the destroyer. He may very well appear as a benevelont spirit or as an angel of light or even as god.


View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Are you trying to take christianity away from me because I dont fit into your mold. If so you have more problems than your accusing me of having. You shoukd view me as your sister in the lord but your basically accusing me of taking up with the devil. Yes I am a devout christian. Im devout to god and not to man. Religion is made and governed by man. I made my own religion and I know god now better than I have ever before in my life. Praise god and hallelujah.. im very happy about that. You cant take the scriptures away from me either. They'ree just as much mine as they are yours. You take comfort being inside the fence. God has sent me out into the fields beyond the pasture. I took my nose out of the book and got some real spiritual food. In your spiritual walk have you noticed that god doesn't do the same thing in the same way? He is constantly surprising us.. and surprise im not like you.
Dont say I dont follow the scriptures. I do follow scriptures and yes I did have visions...

I'm not accusing you of following the devil. Yes but I sincerely doubt that the one you are listening to is the true God. It could be anything. Did I make this "mold" or is it something revealed from God Himself. A yardstick to "discern", not because it is something you just "agree" or "disagree" with.

And how did you presume that I haven't walked "beyond the pastures"? I have been exploring all that since 20 years now. And surprise it is not Utopia out there like you think. SW I have seen the fountainheads of these pantheistic beliefs. Yes in action. But you wouldn't care to know where all this is coming from would you, because you wouldn't "agree" with it as you have already "discerned".

View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

I believe god is higher than that but if someone else was brought to a place where that makes sence for them then I say god brought them there and it is for a reason.

Seriously??? Could it be possible that all this is out of their own whims or from an enemy of the trancendent God himself?

View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

And phallic worship thats probably a very old custom and if people do that now its probably just for sex

Then you haven't read other cultures yet, as you claim to have. Then may be it is time to spend some time on that. Yes it is still done and as frequently as in the past, especially in India and you will find these temples in every street corner. And no they don't worship that for sex. You have poor understanding of pantheistic beliefs. As I wrote before in response to beany, all these beliefs are just extensions of pantheism. I mentioned it to make it obvious how shockingly these beliefs appear to be mutually exclusive.


View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

but your worried about what I do right...

Watch what you are saying. That was a very cheap remark. Don't do that again!


View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

God is a diverse god. I dont have all the answers but I know there are people in different religions and I belueve god put them there. There are some things from these religions that are missing from christianity and there are somethings from thier religions that are missing what is offered through christianity. I think the time is changing for a coming together in understanding.

Is it possible that people are coming together in rejecting the religions and God all together? Do a litle survey and you will know the answer. Your over optimism does not change this fact.

On the surface all this looks very enlightened and you might receive a few likes from the community for being so "broad-minded" but the fact is you cannot bring together two mutually exclusive beliefs. I challenge you or any other member here to show that the God of Abrahamic religions is indeed nature. (And not by cherry picking). Trancendental monotheism is by its very definition the polar opposite of pantheism.

While I respect beliefs of other people, but I'm not ready to forsake mine just to please others or to make people to "come together in understanding". If you believe that it is really possible to come together in understanding then good luck with that. Keep trying. :tu:

Edited by XingWi, 11 January 2013 - 11:46 AM.


#25    Beany

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

You are entitled to your beliefs and your ways of discovering the true God. But the trancendence of God and pantheism are two opposing beliefs and there is no reconciliation. It is a fact.



Please read her post again. Her words do not impy what you are interpreting here. :)

My point is why people wear the garb of Christianity if they do not follow the scriptures or cherry pick from them to suit their desires. If they believe that the scriptures of Christianity are corrupted then they are free to follow the religion which they believe has intact scriptures. But complaining that the church has "rearranged" and "cut up" scriptures for its own interest and then these very people who complain this do this very act by cherry picking what suits their interest is nothing less than hypocricy.





Of course that has to do with their nature worshiping. Pantheism is one of the fundamental beliefs of Hinduism. With that only they justify all these worships. Worshipping the sun, the moon or cows or snakes or monkeys or lingam or yoni all this is just an extension of pantheism.

It's not about whether their belief is true or false. But I ask you this, do you see any reconciliation between trancendental monotheism and pantheism? Setting aside for a while the argument which belief is "true", don't you think that the sources of these religions are different?

No, I think the source is exactly the same. I think the difference is how that source is interpreted, which is heavily influenced by one's cultural biases. Here's a definition of pantheism. Since I see what you call god and I call the divine everywhere and in everything, it works for me. People "worship" various aspects of nature because they see a piece of the divine in it, not because those things are sacred in and of themselves, but because they are an aspect or manifestation of the divine. Pantheism: At its most general, pantheism may be understood positively as the view that God is identical with the cosmos, the view that there exists nothing which is outside of God, or else negatively as the rejection of any view that considers God as distinct from the universe.


#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:


Watch what you are saying. That was a very cheap remark. Don't do that again!

What makes you so sure that it is not you who are deceived xingwi?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#27    SpiritWriter

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:



Never said that all you know is your illusion but the criteria you have with you to discern doesn't change the reality and hence your perception that something is good just because you agree that it is good does not change the reality of what that thing is and in that way it often becomes just an illusion.


Why shouldnt I trust my perception of what is good? To be honest I believe I have a pretty good grasp on it. Not only that but I am also able willing and desiring to grow in this area.. all I want is what is good. It seems like you have bought into the mindset that god is outside of us and that we are basically worthless morons. I believe we were created in the image of god, that the kingdom of god is inside of us and that we are all apart of the body of god, we all have our functions and god made me who I am, brought me to where I am, and either gave me every thought or allowed me to think it. I dont understand why you dont think I have the ability to discern... :-/ I guess its because I said I also use discernment when I read the bible. Sorry I just cant swallow what I cant chew... god made me that way and I think its good.


View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:


And if that voice told you to embrace all the religions as equally made by the same true God Himself would you still believe that it is god? oh wait... but you already did. But then how do you bring together the mutually exclusives? The devil is the destroyer but also a deceiver so he may not appear as the destroyer. He may very well appear as a benevelont spirit or as an angel of light or even as god.


Yes you are correct I will listen to god as he directs my path and study about other religions. The more I learn the more I can decipher the whole picture and god is the whole picture... if I am going to be deceived then it will be god that is deceiving me and if I must walk through the fire to be refined that is what I'll do. I seek the face of god daily and he is ever present by my side. Why would he forsake me? I am his child! Really xi I should be offended at what your saying.. but I know that you have experienced a lot in the spiritual and you are probably just trying to warn me.. so thank you for that. But be assured, god really is on my side... we are really close, this is NOT the devil.


View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:


I'm not accusing you of following the devil. Yes but I sincerely doubt that the one you are listening to is the true God. It could be anything. Did I make this "mold" or is it something revealed from God Himself. A yardstick to "discern", not because it is something you just "agree" or "disagree" with.


Again i can discern and agree with what I want because I have gods spirit within me. Again I should be offended. Your telling me I dont hear from god or know him ;((( .. sorry but shame on you for that... this is what I mean about the mindset of some Christians... this is the reason many dont believe in god... the church would take it god away from his people. This makes me cry truly...

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:



And how did you presume that I haven't walked "beyond the pastures"? I have been exploring all that since 20 years now. And surprise it is not Utopia out there like you think. SW I have seen the fountainheads of these pantheistic beliefs. Yes in action. But you wouldn't care to know where all this is coming from would you, because you wouldn't "agree" with it as you have
Seriously??? Could it be possible that all this is out of their own whims or from an enemy of the trancendent God himself?


Id be interested in hearing more about your story xingwi if you feel like sharing...

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Then you haven't read other cultures yet, as you claim to have. Then may be it is time to spend some time on that. Yes it is still done and as frequently as in the past, especially in India and you will find these temples in every street corner. And no they don't worship that for sex. You have poor understanding of pantheistic beliefs. As I wrote before in response to beany, all these beliefs are just extensions of pantheism. I mentioned it to make it obvious how shockingly these beliefs appear to be mutually exclusive.

Yeah your right I havent been reading about it as long as you.. but some of what I have read has been helpful. I will continue to agree that god was not absent over the remainder of the world while he appeared as a pillar of smoke to the isrealites. If that were the case how could we say he is everywhere present at the same time?


View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Watch what you are saying. That was a very cheap remark. Don't do that again!



You better watch that attitude boy lol...

Just kidding.. but intimidation ? Not a good look dear...

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:


Is it possible that people are coming together in rejecting the religions and God all together? Do a litle survey and you will know the answer. Your over optimism does not change this fact.


I am hopeful

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:


On the surface all this looks very enlightened and you might receive a few likes from the community for being so "broad-minded" but the fact is you cannot bring together two mutually exclusive beliefs. I challenge you or any other member here to show that the God of Abrahamic religions is indeed nature. (And not by cherry picking). Trancendental monotheism is by its very definition the polar opposite of pantheism.

Actually a lot of people on this web site dont agree with my beliefs. I get a double whammy.. athiest cant stand to hear about god and christ and christians cant stand to hear about diversifying religious thought.... oh well at least I have jesus :D

I do believe the god of abraham is also the god of nature... I also believe god has been reguarded by many different names. Its a beautiful day today, it a little chilly but I would love to go down to the lake and watch the birds fly over my head and listen to the waves.. nature brings me closer to god everytime im in it. I love nature. I am apart of nature.. nature really does have A LOT to do with god...

I understand what your saying about monothiesm and polythiesm... me personally I believe in the one true god.. but aparently their are othet dieties...

View PostXingWi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

While I respect beliefs of other people, but I'm not ready to forsake mine just to please others or to make people to "come together in understanding". If you believe that it is really possible to come together in understanding then good luck with that. Keep trying. :tu:



Im not ready to forsake my beliefs either. Thanks for your perspective and your time. I am interested in more of your story. Keep me in mind if you ever want to tell it.

Peace my brother

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#28    markdohle

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

Emmaance without trancedenence makes no sense.  Nature has a cause, or a beginning.  Nothing in the universe is non-contingent, or even nesessary.  Everything that has a beginning has a cause, that does not mean there is something that did not have a beginning, that would be God I believe, no beginning so no need for a cause.  I would consider my self following panentheism:  http://www.theopedia.com/Panentheism

peace
Mark


#29    XingWi

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 11 January 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Why shouldnt I trust my perception of what is good? To be honest I believe I have a pretty good grasp on it. Not only that but I am also able willing and desiring to grow in this area.. all I want is what is good. It seems like you have bought into the mindset that god is outside of us and that we are basically worthless morons. I believe we were created in the image of god, that the kingdom of god is inside of us and that we are all apart of the body of god, we all have our functions and god made me who I am, brought me to where I am, and either gave me every thought or allowed me to think it. I dont understand why you dont think I have the ability to discern... :-/ I guess its because I said I also use discernment when I read the bible. Sorry I just cant swallow what I cant chew... god made me that way and I think its good.




Yes you are correct I will listen to god as he directs my path and study about other religions. The more I learn the more I can decipher the whole picture and god is the whole picture... if I am going to be deceived then it will be god that is deceiving me and if I must walk through the fire to be refined that is what I'll do. I seek the face of god daily and he is ever present by my side. Why would he forsake me? I am his child! Really xi I should be offended at what your saying.. but I know that you have experienced a lot in the spiritual and you are probably just trying to warn me.. so thank you for that. But be assured, god really is on my side... we are really close, this is NOT the devil.




Again i can discern and agree with what I want because I have gods spirit within me. Again I should be offended. Your telling me I dont hear from god or know him ;((( .. sorry but shame on you for that... this is what I mean about the mindset of some Christians... this is the reason many dont believe in god... the church would take it god away from his people. This makes me cry truly...



Id be interested in hearing more about your story xingwi if you feel like sharing...



Yeah your right I havent been reading about it as long as you.. but some of what I have read has been helpful. I will continue to agree that god was not absent over the remainder of the world while he appeared as a pillar of smoke to the isrealites. If that were the case how could we say he is everywhere present at the same time?




You better watch that attitude boy lol...

Just kidding.. but intimidation ? Not a good look dear...



I am hopeful


Actually a lot of people on this web site dont agree with my beliefs. I get a double whammy.. athiest cant stand to hear about god and christ and christians cant stand to hear about diversifying religious thought.... oh well at least I have jesus :D

I do believe the god of abraham is also the god of nature... I also believe god has been reguarded by many different names. Its a beautiful day today, it a little chilly but I would love to go down to the lake and watch the birds fly over my head and listen to the waves.. nature brings me closer to god everytime im in it. I love nature. I am apart of nature.. nature really does have A LOT to do with god...

I understand what your saying about monothiesm and polythiesm... me personally I believe in the one true god.. but aparently their are othet dieties...



Im not ready to forsake my beliefs either. Thanks for your perspective and your time. I am interested in more of your story. Keep me in mind if you ever want to tell it.

Peace my brother


You can trust your perception in all this if you want to, haven't I acknowledged your right to do so. But you cannot force me to believe what you are doing is safe. Neither can I force you to accept what you are doing is unsafe. Too bad you get offended by someone giving you their honest advice.

About transcendence and pantheism, you can believe whatever you want to but the fact is these are mutually exclusive, as I said before, by their very definition.

It is good to explore, I have done it myself seeking expert theologians from many religions. But have you considered reading all the Abrahamic religions first before exploring Greek, Eastern or other mythologies or atleast alongside with them? You want to see the larger picture trust me you will get to see that.

I have years of spiritual experiences with me, I will share some of those with you if we meet again in another more appropriate thread but for now I would like to mention what I have dicovered with my experiences is that parallel mythologies are not co-incidences. There are intelligent beings out there with global agendas. Perhaphs you will consider this possiblity one day when  this religious ecstacy subsides.

I don't look down on  your spiritual explorations but I will remind you to be cautious though. Just keep in mind what your mom said. Never talk to strangers. And keep a pepper-spray with you. Might come handy. ;)

Peace.


#30    XingWi

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:22 AM

View PostBeany, on 11 January 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

No, I think the source is exactly the same. I think the difference is how that source is interpreted, which is heavily influenced by one's cultural biases. Here's a definition of pantheism. Since I see what you call god and I call the divine everywhere and in everything, it works for me. People "worship" various aspects of nature because they see a piece of the divine in it, not because those things are sacred in and of themselves, but because they are an aspect or manifestation of the divine. Pantheism: At its most general, pantheism may be understood positively as the view that God is identical with the cosmos, the view that there exists nothing which is outside of God, or else negatively as the rejection of any view that considers God as distinct from the universe.

I respect your opinion Beany, but where is reconciliation in that? Isn't the acceptance of this distinction is what is known called trancendence. And if the rejection is pantheism then aren't they mutually exclusive? For some, these different sources are man and god, and for some they are god and satan, and for some they are rival gods, and for some they are two different cultures.





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