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Raising the land with sulphuric acid.

calcite sulphuric gypsum land

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14 replies to this topic

#1    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:55 AM

The future looks 'wet', well, at least for the Dutch that is, and of course for everyone living near the coast.

Are we going to build higher dikes or is there another solution?

Maybe this:


Procedure for locally raising the ground artificially

Summary:
The present invention relates to a procedure for locally raising the ground artificially, wherein an equivalent quantity of the calcite (CaCO3) present in the porous underground limestone formations is converted into gypsum (CaSO4.2H2O) by injecting a quantity of sulphuric acid. Preferably a 20 to 25 % strength by weight sulphuric acid is used.

http://www.google.co...0407455B1?cl=en


#2    third_eye

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:05 PM

HOw are they to maintain stability across a major land mass with that Abe ?

If its a localized area I can understand ... but right across an entire country ? Takes more than the math and numbers to hold it tight wouldn't you say ?

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#3    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 15 May 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

HOw are they to maintain stability across a major land mass with that Abe ?

If its a localized area I can understand ... but right across an entire country ? Takes more than the math and numbers to hold it tight wouldn't you say ?

This is from the link:

The abovementioned reaction offers the possibility of artificially raising certain parts of the land or of the sea bed in front of the coast.

From the above explanation it will be clear that such an artificial raising of the ground may be of importance for coastal defence in view of the rise in sea level to be expected.



And about that stability, he says:

[0023] It might be wondered whether the gypsum formed will subside with the elapse of time, but there need be no fear of this. In Germany, several towns have been built for centuries on such a natural alabaster cap.


But as far as I know it has not been tried out on a large scale. I guess injecting waste sulphuric acid was met with raised eyebrows, lol.


#4    third_eye

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:41 PM

Other than the bugs and worms I guess the impact on the natural eco system would be minimal as far as I understand it .... but the soil would be affected in some ways

Structural stability would be the prime concern ... we don;t need any more of those massive sink holes popping up now and then ...

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#5    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:48 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 15 May 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Other than the bugs and worms I guess the impact on the natural eco system would be minimal as far as I understand it .... but the soil would be affected in some ways

Structural stability would be the prime concern ... we don;t need any more of those massive sink holes popping up now and then ...

There would be no impact at all if no pipeline or drill brakes down:

It is known that there is a porous limestone stratum many hundreds of metres thick, the so-called chalk formation originating from the Upper Cretaceous, at a depth in the order of 500-1000 metres under large parts of Holland. This formation comes to the surface in Limburg.

No bugs, worms or soil will be harmed at that depth.

I can't say anything about the stability apart from what the inventor himself said about those German villages.


#6    wolfknight

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

Sound like a big risk. How high are they going to rasie the Dikes?


#7    Abramelin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

View Postwolfknight, on 15 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Sound like a big risk. How high are they going to rasie the Dikes?

I don't think they are going to raise the dikes using this method. Instead maybe submarine areas near the coast, maybe creating a sort of protective reef??

But they are not in a hurry to try this method out because I already read about it in the early 1990's.


#8    Abramelin

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:41 PM

Palk Strait: Repairing Adam’s Bridge with gypsum?
CURRENT SCIENCE, VOL. 86, NO. 10, 25 MAY 2004

The process was developed with support
from a grant of the Netherlands
Technology Foundation. Our experiments
have shown that slow administration of
sulphuric acid to porous limestone indeed
causes a gradual but definite rock
expansion, often accompanied by the
formation of a network of small cracks
ahead of the reaction front. However,
fast injection of concentrated sulphuric
acid leads to clogging of pore space with
gypsum and a rapid decrease of the injection
rate. Laboratory experiments with
mixtures of acid injected at different
concentrations and rates, into blocks,
slabs and cores of various types of limestone,
provide insight about successful
injection strategies. After the laboratory
experiments, some small-scale field
experiments were carried out in an abandoned
limestone quarry. Several thousand
litres of sulphuric acid, or hydrochloric
acid followed by sulphuric acid were
injected into porous shallow subsurface
limestones during approximately 6 h.
Sensitive electronic tilt meters placed in
an array around the injection well clearly
registered a modest surface uplift. Chemical
analysis of the excavated and reacted rock
shows a regular progressive limestone/
gypsum transformation around the injection
well.


http://www.iisc.erne...252004/1351.pdf


Posted Image

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2013 - 06:46 PM.


#9    sepulchrave

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

It is an interesting idea, and well worth further study. Gypsum is less water soluble than Calcite, so it does seem like a reasonable idea to me.

View PostAbramelin, on 15 May 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:



[0023] It might be wondered whether the gypsum formed will subside with the elapse of time, but there need be no fear of this. In Germany, several towns have been built for centuries on such a natural alabaster cap.


I do object a bit to this statement. ``Gypsum'', referring to solids based on a fundamental chemical unit of CaSO4*2H2O and ``Alabaster'', referring to a specific gypsum mineral, are not necessarily the same thing.

Just because one has created gypsum by injecting acid into calcite does not mean that this is mineral alabaster; any more than a charcoal briquette is the same as a diamond.

A second concern of mine is that gypsum is not as hard as calcite (even alabaster is not as hard as calcite, polymorphic gypsum is probably even more malleable); can gypsum support a lot of surface infrastructure without shifting?

I definitely think this process is worth further large-scale study; as long as lab tests show the acid waste is readily absorbed by the calcite I think that this process is unlikely to damage the water table, so the only real side effect (in my opinion) would be possibly reducing the stability of the ground which is only significant for urban areas.


#10    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

I found a bit more about this idea of raising the Adam's Bridge.and a response from the Dutch inventor concerning its strength:


Will Adam’s bridge link Lanka with India?
(2004)

The Adam’s bridge, formed primarily because of a complex movement of shore-drifting sea currents, got its present shape when corals accumulated on linear sand bodies.

KALYAN RAY IN NEW DELHI

It may sound straight from an Isaac Asimov novel, but a Dutch scientist has proposed to raise the Adam’s Bridge in the Palk Strait from under the sea using waste acids generated in factories in both countries. If realised, the geo-chemical engineering will enable India to set up a land route with Sri Lanka just like the myth in the Ramayana goes.

Mostly submerged approximately 1.2 mt below sea level, the 30-km long Adam’s bridge – an atoll barrier stretching from Dhanuskodi (in Rameshwaram island) in India to Thalaimannar in Sri Lanka – is made of a chain of shoals and can be seen from satellites.

India’s land connections with the Emerald Island was severed due to a sea-level rise at the end of the last ice age almost 10,000 years ago.

Simple technique

The technique, proposed by Dr R D Schuiling of the Utrecht University in the Netherlands, appears to be simple.

It is developed with support from the Netherlands Technology foundation, involving the pumping of tonnes of sulphuric acid – a common industrial waste – into the atoll’s bedrock at a depth of 100 mt through boreholes.

The process, says Dr Schuiling, is a stable one and the upward movement of the rock structure can be manoeuvred by controlling the rate of acid injection.

The ensuing chemical reaction leads to creation of huge quantities of voluminous gypsum – a common mineral in sedimentary environment. Acid injection into the sub-surface limestone structure brings about a large expansion of the rocks that can only be accommodated by surface uplift.

Because of the larger volume of gypsum, the bedrock expands slowly resulting in a gradual upward shift of the Adam’s bridge, bringing it out of the water.

Furthermore, acid injection can be manipulated in such a way that some portion of the original limestone surrounding the gypsum core is left untouched thereby strengthening the structure.

What may bolster the odds slightly in favour of the innovative proposal is an earlier study, which indicates that existing natural sedimentation may result in a connection between the Vedaranniyam area in Tamil Nadu and the Jaffna peninsula in a few thousand years.

Rock form

Though gypsum is a major rock forming mineral that produces massive beds usually from precipitation of highly saline water, an objection has been raised on the strength of the bridge’s new rocky structure. “I think that as long as a solid mass of gypsum is enclosed by other rocks, it provides as much bearing strength as any other solid,” Dr Schuiling told Deccan Herald in an e-mail.

Asked about the operational feasibility of the proposal, the Dutch scientist is optimistic.

“In a Brazilian fertiliser plant sulphuric acid was accidentally leaked out into the soil rich in limestone material. The consequences were devastating in the sense that more than a one-foot thick reinforced concrete floor had burst open, and thick steel beams had been twisted out of shape. So the forces that can be unleashed by acid injection into limestone are enormous,” he says.

What about the environmental risks involved? “There will be no direct effect on flora and fauna as the rock transformation takes place well below the surface of the earth separated from the biosphere by a layer of un-reacted limestone.

Moreover, if there are heavy metals in the waste acids, those contaminants are immobilised between the limestone and gypsum,” he says in the journal ‘Current Science’.

If the the bridge has to be raised only by 1.2 mt from the sea level, the scientist estimates that a requirement of one million cubic meter of low-grade sulphuric acid can be obtained from the industries in both nations.

Though the proposal has not reached the governments in both countries officially, Dr Schuiling says that he, along with his Indian colleagues, is in the process of approaching the government formally.


http://archive.decca...y112004/sl8.asp



I wonder if we will ever hear more of this.


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Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2013 - 12:04 PM.


#11    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 12:25 PM

Dutch Plan:Raise Land Above the Seas
By Robert L. Kroon
Published: January 12, 1993


(...)


"After more than a year of lab experiments, we think it can be done," he said.

An injection hole of 500 meters (1,650 feet) would affect a surface area with a two-kilometer diameter, according to Mr. Nieuwenhuis. This Herculean enterprise would require enormous quantities of sulfuric acid, but that would be a plus rather than a problem, the scientists say.

Industrialized countries like the Netherlands are saddled with huge surpluses of surfuric acid, an unwanted byproduct of the chemical industry.

"Even if the jack-up yield would be disappointing, we will still reap the bonus of environment-friendly sulfuric acid disposal," Mr. Nieuwenhuis said. "In Holland alone, we generate 5 million cubic meters of acid waste every year."


(...)

"Tampering with nature on this scale is always risky and we don't want to be sorcerers' apprentices," he said. "Raising the soil may provoke earthquakes, but we think they can be held within Richter 3 magnitudes -not much more than the tremors provoked by heavy trucks. If we get the green light from the government, we mayopt for offshore drilling. Tilting windmills or beach hotels is not our idea. At any rate, jacking up the coastline will be a process over decades."

Preliminary computer models show it will require 60 years of Dutch sulfuric acid waste output to raise a 320-kilometer-by-2-kilometer coastal belt by about a meter.



http://www.nytimes.c...12iht-dike.html


#12    third_eye

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:51 PM

Dutch Plan:Raise Land Above the Seas
By Robert L. Kroon
Published: January 12, 1993


thats a mighty long time ago when it comes to things like this Abe .... I ain't holding my breath else I'll be the fourth Blue Men to die of being too blue

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#13    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:33 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 18 May 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Dutch Plan:Raise Land Above the Seas
By Robert L. Kroon
Published: January 12, 1993


thats a mighty long time ago when it comes to things like this Abe .... I ain't holding my breath else I'll be the fourth Blue Men to die of being too blue

I know, and the latest articles date from 2004.

But did you read what's necessary if they want to use this method for the Dutch coast?

"In Holland alone, we generate 5 million cubic meters of acid waste every year."

it will require 60 years of Dutch sulfuric acid waste output to raise a 320-kilometer-by-2-kilometer coastal belt by about a meter.

That's 300 million cubic meters of acid waste !!  But maybe they already started, in secret....

Wait, did I see a mountain on the western horizon??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#14    third_eye

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 May 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

I know, and the latest articles date from 2004.

But did you read what's necessary if they want to use this method for the Dutch coast?

"In Holland alone, we generate 5 million cubic meters of acid waste every year."

it will require 60 years of Dutch sulfuric acid waste output to raise a 320-kilometer-by-2-kilometer coastal belt by about a meter.

That's 300 million cubic meters of acid waste !!  But maybe they already started, in secret....

Wait, did I see a mountain on the western horizon??

.

Sorry to say I'm in no condition to read this in depth Abe ... you know me ... I'm way outta my depth here ...
on top of that :

Posted Image

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#15    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:53 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 18 May 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

Sorry to say I'm in no condition to read this in depth Abe ... you know me ... I'm way outta my depth here ...
on top of that :

Posted Image

LOL, well, just think what the public outcry will be if people know the government is injecting 300 million cubic meters of waste acid in front of the coast.

Those responsible will be hanged in public !


.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2013 - 07:54 PM.






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