185 replies to this topic

[failturner25]

Heaven and hell can not be proved or disproved. People who FULLY die will never come back to life and say that they saw/did not see heaven/hell. The scientist can not prove it, he needs physical evidence (seeing is not physical evidence). Besides, ask yourself this 'Would God show someone heaven if they were going to wake up again?'. Surely he wouldn't. Either the scientist's brain was still working and therefore he dreamt everything, or he is just another lier. I have no more to say in the matter.

Edited by failturner25, 10 October 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Emma_Acid]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

The problem of course is that what you call a hallucination is strikingly indicative of a "spirit world"... It boggles the mind to come up with evolutionary psychological reasons why it plays itself out with those specific  elements.

You're coming at it from the wrong direction. Its not that we came up with a description of a spirit world, and then the near death experiences are co-incidentally similar.

The spirit world is perceived to be the way it is because of the things people have seen during near death experiences, not the other way round.

And again, it boils down to the fact that personal experiences are not scientific evidence. If a guy at the bus stop told you he was Napoleon - not just thinks he is, knows he is - is that evidence for reincarnation?

(clue: the answer's no).

[Alienated Being]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

The problem of course is that what you call a hallucination is strikingly indicative of a "spirit world"... It boggles the mind to come up with evolutionary psychological reasons why it plays itself out with those specific  elements. and a hullicinatiion of peanutbutter and jelly sandwich only adds credibility that those types of sandwiches exist

Not at all, it is indicative of hallucinations that have been labeled as a spirit world.

What interests me most about NDEs is that individuals from various religions have all claimed to have seen their "God" as they are going through the experience. For example, the Egyptians experienced Anubis, Muslims experience Allah, Hindus experience Vishnu, etc. It is all entirely psychological, nothing more and nothing less. It is a neurological response to make death more comforting for the individual experiencing it.

[Seeker79]

Rlyeh, on 10 October 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

But isn't that just calling hallucinations, spiritual? It's kind of like saying Zeus throws lightning bolts, therefore lightning bolts indicates Zeus is real. It's circular reasoning.

It's more like watching lighting bolts smite people  that bad mouth Zeus. Zeus may not be real, but If even the ocasional person that bad mouthed him got zapped by a lighting bolt, we would reconsider the reality of zeus.

[Seeker79]

Alienated Being, on 10 October 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Not at all, it is indicative of hallucinations that have been labeled as a spirit world.

What interests me most about NDEs is that individuals from various religions have all claimed to have seen their "God" as they are going through the experience. For example, the Egyptians experienced Anubis, Muslims experience Allah, Hindus experience Vishnu, etc. It is all entirely psychological, nothing more and nothing less. It is a neurological response to make death more comforting for the individual experiencing it.

Riiiiiigggghhhhhhttttttt.  Do you realize what you are saying? There could be zero evolutionary pressure to create such a common hallucination  for humans.... Why? Because you are dieing!!! 200,000 years go there was no Difibulator!!!

Why would a fairly random process ( evolution) make it more comfortable for you to die, but excruciating to give birth? It dosnt make any sense at all.

Common now. People sitting next to each other describe and inturpret  a car accident from their own perspectives, quite obviously a meeting with god in an altered state of conciousness is going to have a cultural spin on it. You did not think a non physical being is going to look the same to every one did you?  The fact that all these cultures are experiencing the same elements is what is truly striking.

But hey it's all a mass hullucination that's been around for all of human history that just happens to mimic what an afterlife might be like, that somehow just came into being from zero evolutionary pressure to comfort us even though we are unconcious anyway.

Ok sounds like a good analysis.

[Alienated Being]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Riiiiiigggghhhhhhttttttt.  Do you realize what you are saying? There could be zero evolutionary pressure to create such a common hallucination  for humans.... Why? Because you are dieing!!! 200,000 years go there was no Difibulator!!!

Who says that it really has anything to do with evolution? Secondly, just because science cannot offer an explanation for everything, attempts are made in doing so... instead of holding on to a fantastical belief.

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Why would a fairly random process ( evolution) make it more comfortable for you to die, but excruciating to give birth? It dosnt make any sense at all.

So, ultimately that must mean that there is an afterlife, right? The most logical explanation that we have is a.) lack of oxygen to the brain, and b.) a surge of chemicals in the brain as it dies. This has been observed in scientific studies.

Secondly, how come not everybody experiences the spirit world if it exists? Why does person "a" have a NDE, whilst person "b" does not? Similar physical sensations are reported to have been felt as the patient "dies" on the table, but only some experience the visual hallucinations. That does not make sense. What, is one individual more qualified to experience the spirit world than another? This does not make sense.

Quote

Common now. People sitting next to each other describe and inturpret  a car accident from their own perspectives, quite obviously a meeting with god in an altered state of conciousness is going to have a cultural spin on it. You did not think a non physical being is going to look the same to every one did you?  The fact that all these cultures are experiencing the same elements is what is truly striking.

Mass hysteria, my friend. Have you ever watched a person yawn, and then a person across from them yawns directly after? Or, perhaps when somebody coughs, or clears their throat... you will hear/see an individual cough/clear their throat in the room. Do this in a room with about 20 people, and I guarantee somebody else will cough/clear their throat directly after you.

As for the two in the car... one individual could be speaking about what he is seeing, and the other next to him hears what he is saying, and produces visual hallucinations as a result. That is just a really base-less theory, but it would appear to be more logical than accepting you are experiencing a walk into the spirit realm.

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But hey it's all a mass hullucination that's been around for all of human history that just happens to mimic what an afterlife might be like, that somehow just came into being from zero evolutionary pressure to comfort us even though we are unconcious anyway.

Ok sounds like a good analysis.

Absolutely, and I haven't the slightest reason to believe otherwise.

Edited by Alienated Being, 10 October 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Seeker79]

Emma_Acid, on 10 October 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

You're coming at it from the wrong direction. Its not that we came up with a description of a spirit world, and then the near death experiences are co-incidentally similar.

------( hold onto this thought the next time you see an argument about wishful thinking or imagination)--------

The spirit world is perceived to be the way it is because of the things people have seen during near death experiences, not the other way round.

This of course is a completely illogical (begging the question) . Quite obviously, if there is a spirit world and we can precive it, we would have the same result if we were defining what a spirit world would be like based on some sort of humanwide "hullucination"

[Alienated Being]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

This of course is a completely illogical (begging the question) . Quite obviously, if there is a spirit world and we can precive it, we would have the same result if we were defining what a spirit world would be like based on some sort of humanwide "hullucination"

Or it was simply a misinterpreted hallucination.

[Emma_Acid]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

This of course is a completely illogical (begging the question) . Quite obviously, if there is a spirit world and we can precive it, we would have the same result if we were defining what a spirit world would be like based on some sort of humanwide "hullucination"

That isn't begging the question.

And you are still only viewing it from your preferred angle, rather than the one more likely to be true. Its the equivalent of saying that dreams are the results of fairies sprinkling dust into our ears at night, and the fact that every one has dreams is proof of this.

What i think is going on, is that when you have a near death experience, the brain - especially if damaged - will flood itself with chemicals and will create an untraumatic experience for the individual. This actually sounds like a pretty simple, reasonable explanation, and is a damn sight simpler than evoking some form of afterlife.

NDEs are essentially a biological coping mechanism. The brain is shutting itself down in the face of trauma, whether its a loss of oxygen or actual damage.

There doesn't have to be an evolutionary reason for this to happen. Not everything has an evolutionary purpose.

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Riiiiiigggghhhhhhttttttt.  Do you realize what you are saying? There could be zero evolutionary pressure to create such a common hallucination  for humans.... Why? Because you are dieing!!! 200,000 years go there was no Difibulator!!!

That makes no sense.

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Why would a fairly random process ( evolution) make it more comfortable for you to die, but excruciating to give birth? It dosnt make any sense at all.

Why do smells remind you of things, yet when you get old you get arthritis? Apples and oranges mate. Your question doesn't make any sense.

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Common now. People sitting next to each other describe and inturpret  a car accident from their own perspectives, quite obviously a meeting with god in an altered state of conciousness is going to have a cultural spin on it. You did not think a non physical being is going to look the same to every one did you?  The fact that all these cultures are experiencing the same elements is what is truly striking.

Do you have a comprehensive run down of these experiences showing that they do indeed match? And I don't mean vagaries like "a bright light".

[Seeker79]

Alienated Being, on 10 October 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Who says that it really has anything to do with evolution? Secondly, just because science cannot offer an explanation for everything, attempts are made in doing so... instead of holding on to a fantastical belief.


So, ultimately that must mean that there is an afterlife, right? The most logical explanation that we have is a.) lack of oxygen to the brain, and b.) a surge of chemicals in the brain as it dies. This has been observed in scientific studies.

Secondly, how come not everybody experiences the spirit world if it exists? Why does person "a" have a NDE, whilst person "b" does not? Similar physical sensations are reported to have been felt as the patient "dies" on the table, but only some experience the visual hallucinations. That does not make sense. What, is one individual more qualified to experience the spirit world than another? This does not make sense.


Mass hysteria, my friend. Have you ever watched a person yawn, and then a person across from them yawns directly after? Or, perhaps when somebody coughs, or clears their throat... you will hear/see an individual cough/clear their throat in the room. Do this in a room with about 20 people, and I guarantee somebody else will cough/clear their throat directly after you.

As for the two in the car... one individual could be speaking about what he is seeing, and the other next to him hears what he is saying, and produces visual hallucinations as a result. That is just a really base-less theory, but it would appear to be more logical than accepting you are experiencing a walk into the spirit realm.


Absolutely, and I haven't the slightest reason to believe otherwise.

Evolution has everything to do with our biology. If this is simply biological, then quite likely evolution had a hand. In this particular case it would be have to be a side effect.... An accident that we precieve these things upon near death.  Again that's one hell of an accident.

How come most people can't remember their dreams? If you don't remember your dreams one day, does that mean that they did not happen the night before of course not!!!! Remembering altered state experiences is tough. Trust me i work with people on this very issue. Especially if traumatized. Hell physical experiences are hard to remember if traumatized. A certain percentage of people remember what it was like when they were sort of dead. A certain percentage of people quite obviously have the experience but die and can't tell us about it. A certain percentage of people can't remember, so it is non existent for them. if i wack you on the head with a hammer, there is a very good chance you will not even remember me wacking you. Just like your dreams though that dosnt say a dam thing about weather it happened or not. So yes it makes plenty of sense.

Which is it mass hysteria or Nerochemistry? I think it's obvious it's not mass hysteria.... That's the lamest of excuse. Quite obviously its a human condition experienced by precolumbian native Americans to ancient Egyptians. Cultures that have had zero contact since humans walked out of Africa.

Not at all.... "not logical" " fantastical" these are appeals emotion or "name calling" you have not shown why it is not logical and there are no grounds for it being fantastical. These are purely opinions. Myself and a vast portion of humanity would consider it more fantastical if there were no spirit world. (im not using bandwagon logic its just a statement)In fact it is quite logical for a person haveing these experiences to believe there is a spirit world. And if the person is trust worthy, it's quit logical to believe they saw what they say they saw. ( although you don't have to believe what they believe about the nature of it).

It is prooven that people experience events from a personal and cultural bias. If I stand four inches from your face and shout, you will probably inturpret the event as a rude challenge. If you are from israel, it's a normal way to communicate and you would have no such bias. In car accidents one person will say the car came from here and did this, while someone right next to that person will say the opposite. Perspectives taint everything we experience and have nothing to do with the event itself. Why would it be any different for spiritual experiences?

[fullywired]

  Near-death experience 'all in the mind'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15494379

[Alienated Being]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Evolution has everything to do with our biology. If this is simply biological, then quite likely evolution had a hand. In this particular case it would be have to be a side effect.... An accident that we precieve these things upon near death.  Again that's one hell of an accident.

Perhaps it does, yes; however, you stated that there is no evolutionary pressure that would warrant good, peaceful feelings in death.

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How come most people can't remember their dreams? If you don't remember your dreams one day, does that mean that they did not happen the night before of course not!!!! Remembering altered state experiences is tough. Trust me i work with people on this very issue. Especially if traumatized. Hell physical experiences are hard to remember if traumatized. A certain percentage of people remember what it was like when they were sort of dead. A certain percentage of people quite obviously have the experience but die and can't tell us about it. A certain percentage of people can't remember, so it is non existent for them. if i wack you on the head with a hammer, there is a very good chance you will not even remember me wacking you. Just like your dreams though that dosnt say a dam thing about weather it happened or not. So yes it makes plenty of sense.

Or, a good amount of people simply do not have them. Period. Some brains work differently than others, and we know this. Also, that is a poor analogy, as if you were to whack me on the head with a hammer, I would be able to remember it, depending on the amount of force being applied to the whack. That was a horrible analogy.

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Which is it mass hysteria or Nerochemistry? I think it's obvious it's not mass hysteria.... That's the lamest of excuse. Quite obviously its a human condition experienced by precolumbian native Americans to ancient Egyptians. Cultures that have had zero contact since humans walked out of Africa.

How is it "quite obviously not mass hysteria"?

Quote

Not at all.... "not logical" " fantastical" these are appeals emotion or "name calling" you have not shown why it is not logical and there are no grounds for it being fantastical. These are purely opinions. Myself and a vast portion of humanity would consider it more fantastical if there were no spirit world. (im not using bandwagon logic its just a statement)In fact it is quite logical for a person haveing these experiences to believe there is a spirit world. And if the person is trust worthy, it's quit logical to believe they saw what they say they saw. ( although you don't have to believe what they believe about the nature of it).

Logical to you does not equate to logical in the realm of science. You may choose to believe in whatever you wish, but that does not mean that there is any truth in that belief. You can have faith, of course... but, again, that does not make the belief true. And, I am quite content in saying that they misinterpreted what they saw, and labeled it as being a spirit world.

To be quite frank, we haven't the slightest shred of physical evidence in reinforcement of a spirit world. All we have are anecdotes involving people "dying, seeing the spirit realm", and then coming back to life where everything is hunky dorey. If you choose to believe that, that is fine; but if you do, then I place you into the same category as an individual who would believe an individual whom claimed that they saw a pink elephant standing on top of the empire state building. There is no evidence for it whatsoever.

[Render]

Seeker79, on 10 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Riiiiiigggghhhhhhttttttt.  Do you realize what you are saying? There could be zero evolutionary pressure to create such a common hallucination  for humans.... Why? Because you are dieing!!! 200,000 years go there was no Difibulator!!!

Not everyone experiences "an other side" when they die. Not everyone with a death-experience claims to have seen the light or have an outer body experience or any other spiritual thing.

The hallucination could just be a by product of the brain shutting down certain areas, not the evolutionary goal. Just a by product.
The hallucinations, or what you call "spiritual world", is caused by brain malfunction/damage.


But you are saying that the "spiritual world' causes brain malfunctions/damage. Why would a spiritual experience do that?

[Seeker79]

Emma_Acid, on 10 October 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

That isn't begging the question.

And you are still only viewing it from your preferred angle, rather than the one more likely to be true. Its the equivalent of saying that dreams are the results of fairies sprinkling dust into our ears at night, and the fact that every one has dreams is proof of this.

What i think is going on, is that when you have a near death experience, the brain - especially if damaged - will flood itself with chemicals and will create an untraumatic experience for the individual. This actually sounds like a pretty simple, reasonable explanation, and is a damn sight simpler than evoking some form of afterlife.

NDEs are essentially a biological coping mechanism. The brain is shutting itself down in the face of trauma, whether its a loss of oxygen or actual damage.

There doesn't have to be an evolutionary reason for this to happen. Not everything has an evolutionary purpose.




That makes no sense.




Why do smells remind you of things, yet when you get old you get arthritis? Apples and oranges mate. Your question doesn't make any sense.




Do you have a comprehensive run down of these experiences showing that they do indeed match? And I don't mean vagaries like "a bright light".

It most certainly was, you were assuming the conclusion in your statement ( there is no spirit world therefore all experiences of it are hullucinations, and it's our hallucinations that make us think there is a spirit world).

Text book actually.
http://www.nizkor.or...e-question.html

You have absolutely no likelyhoods to base such a statement on. It's merely your opinion born of a materialist philosophy that it is not likely. That's fine, I understand, but your opinion on something dosnt make it more or less likely, nor does mine.

And yes I'm makeing an argument, I can look at the other perspective, and it dosnt hold up, thats what this is all about. Lots of conjecture, lots of assumptions, lots of arguments that don't pay any attention to reality. Simply philosophical ( materialist) rhetoric, and more begging the question. ( there is no such thing as a spiritual reality, therefore NDEs cannot be spiritual) don't you see how illogical that is?

Wait a minute you were just saying you think it's a copeing mechanism. Does it have a purpose or not? biological phenomena either evolved or are side effects of said evolution.

It's a nice theory unfortunately it dosnt hold up. Not all NDE/OBEs are trauma related, often occur under deep anestisia, and occasionally can be corroborated by doctors... You know actual biologists. A ham sandwich "floods" my brain with chemicals. This dosnt mean anything.

It makes perfect sense, and is nothing like your apeal to ridicule (
http://www.nizkor.or...o-ridicule.html)

[Seeker79]

Render, on 10 October 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Not everyone experiences "an other side" when they die. Not everyone with a death-experience claims to have seen the light or have an outer body experience or any other spiritual thing.

The hallucination could just be a by product of the brain shutting down certain areas, not the evolutionary goal. Just a by product.
The hallucinations, or what you call "spiritual world", is caused by brain malfunction/damage.


But you are saying that the "spiritual world' causes brain malfunctions/damage. Why would a spiritual experience do that?

It certainly is possible that's what is happening, unfortunately it dosnt fit with the greater body of evidence.

No I'm not. Not sure why you thought I was saying that.

I have already addressed the rest of your statements with others, just read back a bit.

Edited by Seeker79, 10 October 2012 - 03:55 PM.