198 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

Crikey, on 22 January 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

Right,for example  there's the well-known Sodom/Gomorrah incident where God sent two angels to wipe out those cesspits of perversion, and I don't think any of us would object to that.
Likewise there were ancient nasty violent tribes and peoples who had to be removed from the gene pool for the general good of humankind, and I don't think we have any objection to that either..
"They will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath" (Revelation 14:10)

I'm not sure if you are being facetious /sarcastic or not, but actually, logically, i agree entirely. I would do the same,  given a clear and present danger to innocent beings.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 21 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

So you believe these 70,000 people deserved to die.

Then why was David upset?

I cant answer that question because I do not know the mind of god at that time nor of david But god stoped the angel and saved the lives of many more Perhaps david's very human appeal resonated even in gods mind, which is more just and realistic and less emotional than  that of a fairly primitive human being like david, because god knows moreand can see into the heart and mind of every one of those 70000 people. If a god knows that peole deserve to die then perhaps we should accept that he does In other cases it is more clear WHY god requires humans to be killed.

I had a re read of this section after your last post but i will have to study the surrounding context to give you an informed opinion.
It certainly had to do with disobdience to the very new covenant which god had just established with david. Perhaps god was making a point before things went more off the rails and more peole died and suffered. God is exceedingly good at prediction and extrapolation, and often makes pre-emptive strikes to stop things going down hill.  This appears to be especially true after he "messed up" so bad with the flood, leaving it to the last minute to salvage humanity, and leaving only a few cells alive, after excising the cancerous growth from the human race.. Perhaps that shattered his faith in humanity and he began trying other strategies, using earlier interventions to protect more of the innocents from corruption

[Helen of Annoy]

Crikey, on 22 January 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

Right,for example  there's the well-known Sodom/Gomorrah incident where God sent two angels to wipe out those cesspits of perversion, and I don't think any of us would object to that.
Likewise there were ancient nasty violent tribes and peoples who had to be removed from the gene pool for the general good of humankind, and I don't think we have any objection to that either..
"They will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath" (Revelation 14:10)

Good, so we agree that there was no harm done unless there was a good reason.
Or you’ll have to work on your sarcasm, it just didn’t show in that particular post, it took the context to guess you were trying to sound sarcastic.

I have to remind you again that I’m not here to discuss the Bible, I’m interested in angel-like beings through history and today.
Do you have anything to contribute besides your clear negative obsession with Christianity?

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 22 January 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

...I have to remind you again that I’m not here to discuss the Bible, I’m interested in angel-like beings through history and today.
Do you have anything to contribute besides your clear negative obsession with Christianity?

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I mean, the Bible is as full of angels as LOTR is full of orcs, so any open-minded discussion of angels must inevitably mine the rich mother lode of the Bible..
Incidentally, I may or may not have seen an angel in human form about 5 years ago, what happened was that me and a christian evangelist friend were going to his house for tea, and a local satan-worshipper (who we knew) invited himself along too.
The three of us got on the bus and sat on the long seat at the back, the satan guy at one end.
At the next stop a young woman got on, and to my amazement she walked the full length of the bus and plonked herself between the satan guy and me and my friend, even though the bus was almost empty and she could have had any other seat.
She sat there without speaking, wearing a neutral expression on her face, and then got off a few stops later, and the three of us got off soon after.
Was she an angel who sat there to protect us from the satanist's bad vibes? Or was she giving us a silent message to keep away from him in future? We just don't know.

Postscript- after getting off the bus the three of us walked to my friends house and when we got there the satanists behaviour was disgusting, he sprawled on the settee with his feet up, burping and yawning as if he was demon-possessed.
I took my friend aside and quietly told him I was leaving because I couldn't stand being near the satanist, and I left.

[Kludge808]

I mentioned this earlier in a post but now it has gotten me thinking in terms of the current discussion vis-a-vis the nature of angels.

We talk about people being possessed by demons but I've come to the belief that possession can be by more benign beings such as angels.  I have no particular basis for this other than a strong belief in balance and by observation but it makes a lot of sense - or it does to me.  There are probably a gazillion reasons why this belief is flawed but then there are about the same number held by those who don't believe in angels regarding those of us who do.  At some point I'll expand on this but I've not yet had my 1st liter of coffee so my mind is basic mush at the moment ... not that it's any better any other time.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 22 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I cant answer that question because I do not know the mind of god at that time nor of david

Well if you read the Bible, you'll get some insight in their minds. God consistently killed people in order to "punish" others because He values emotional torment more than death. Speaking of David, how did God "punish" David after he impregnated a married woman and sent her husband off to die to get rid of him? By killing their innocent child of course. That is the mind of God.

Quote

But god stoped the angel and saved the lives of many more

No, David stopped God's angel of murder by pleading with God, just like Moses did several times before Moses gave up and let God kill as often as He wanted. Isn't it great that the Bible is full of mortals like David and Moses who value human life enough to stop God from killing people He really wanted to kill? It is any wonder why so many people are putting faith in humanity instead of this monstrous God in the Bible?

In the Bible, humans regularly proved to be more forgiving and loving than God was or is able to be. That is the message in the Bible that so few people ever realize even though it's evident in story after story. I think people just get numb to how God exterminated people like insects.

Quote

Perhaps david's very human appeal resonated even in gods mind, which is more just and realistic and less emotional than  that of a fairly primitive human being like david, because god knows moreand can see into the heart and mind of every one of those 70000 people. If a god knows that peole deserve to die then perhaps we should accept that he does In other cases it is more clear WHY god requires humans to be killed.

So you believe that atrocities are justifiable when they have God's Seal of Approval. I find this disgusting.

[Etu Malku]

Kludge808, on 22 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

I mentioned this earlier in a post but now it has gotten me thinking in terms of the current discussion vis-a-vis the nature of angels.

We talk about people being possessed by demons but I've come to the belief that possession can be by more benign beings such as angels.  I have no particular basis for this other than a strong belief in balance and by observation but it makes a lot of sense - or it does to me.  There are probably a gazillion reasons why this belief is flawed but then there are about the same number held by those who don't believe in angels regarding those of us who do.  At some point I'll expand on this but I've not yet had my 1st liter of coffee so my mind is basic mush at the moment ... not that it's any better any other time.

Throughout my studies on trance and music I've come to understand possession as a cultural phenomenon. That one desires this possession to take place and that the entities involved are a part of the person's spiritual background and makeup.

You don't find people living in Vatican City being possessed by Lwa of the Vodoun pantheon, or the Yezidi of Kurdistan being possessed by Roman Catholic angels/demons.

And you usually never find atheists being possessed by anything.

[Helen of Annoy]

Crikey, on 22 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I mean, the Bible is as full of angels as LOTR is full of orcs, so any open-minded discussion of angels must inevitably mine the rich mother lode of the Bible..
Incidentally, I may or may not have seen an angel in human form about 5 years ago, what happened was that me and a christian evangelist friend were going to his house for tea, and a local satan-worshipper (who we knew) invited himself along too.
The three of us got on the bus and sat on the long seat at the back, the satan guy at one end.
At the next stop a young woman got on, and to my amazement she walked the full length of the bus and plonked herself between the satan guy and me and my friend, even though the bus was almost empty and she could have had any other seat.
She sat there without speaking, wearing a neutral expression on her face, and then got off a few stops later, and the three of us got off soon after.
Was she an angel who sat there to protect us from the satanist's bad vibes? Or was she giving us a silent message to keep away from him in future? We just don't know.

Postscript- after getting off the bus the three of us walked to my friends house and when we got there the satanists behaviour was disgusting, he sprawled on the settee with his feet up, burping and yawning as if he was demon-possessed.
I took my friend aside and quietly told him I was leaving because I couldn't stand being near the satanist, and I left.

Open minded, yes please, angels in Biblical context, absolutely, dissecting particular religious doctrines on expense of the actual topic – no.
It’s not too hard to notice when you have stopped being interesting and became only annoying.

The bus story is interesting. In my opinion, it even has something to do with Kludge’s theory of angelic possession.
Maybe one doesn’t have to be an angel in order to do some angelic work, just like one doesn’t have to be a demon in order to bring destruction.
Of course, we all have our good and bad side, combined with endless numbers of motives anyone can have to do or not do something, it’s impossible to say if that particular girl was an angel, or mildly drugged while interested in one of you, or sensitive person doing something she felt should be done, or insane person being drawn by particular vibe, or possessed person being marionette of forces possessed by, just to name few obvious possibilities

By the way, that was one amateur Satanist. Real ones are usually the role models on the outside and rotten piles of greed and destruction on the inside. And that was off topic, damn it, but I had to say it.
So I owe you one off topic.  

Back on topic, I was wondering like probably anyone else, why is it that angels help some people some times, why not all the people all the time... my own conclusion was that they appear to keep chain of events going in the right way. Planned way. Sometimes good people are let to cope on their own because it makes sense only we can't see the sense, since our perspective is so miserably low.

[Helen of Annoy]

Etu Malku, on 22 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Throughout my studies on trance and music I've come to understand possession as a cultural phenomenon. That one desires this possession to take place and that the entities involved are a part of the person's spiritual background and makeup.

You don't find people living in Vatican City being possessed by Lwa of the Vodoun pantheon, or the Yezidi of Kurdistan being possessed by Roman Catholic angels/demons.

And you usually never find atheists being possessed by anything.

There are exceptions.
Certain person I knew was fitting the description of possessed by demon – I’m not joking, he wasn't vomiting pea soup, it was far more subtle but incredibly sinister, creepy and outright dangerous. That person practiced no religion except socially expected celebrations of religious holydays and so.
If you only met him on by-the-way basis, you’d say he was an ordinary guy and ordinary hypocrite that declared his belonging to certain church with no specified opinion on god in which he probably didn’t believe.
I knew him well and I believe the human mind wasn't inside his body at all anymore. It was human body inhabitated by a demon.
I wonder to whose body his demon has moved.

Yes, I know how that sounded   I don't regularly see demons around me, only two people in my entire life made me think of that.

[Rlyeh]

Crikey, on 22 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Incidentally, I may or may not have seen an angel in human form about 5 years ago, what happened was that me and a christian evangelist friend were going to his house for tea, and a local satan-worshipper (who we knew) invited himself along too.
The three of us got on the bus and sat on the long seat at the back, the satan guy at one end.
At the next stop a young woman got on, and to my amazement she walked the full length of the bus and plonked herself between the satan guy and me and my friend, even though the bus was almost empty and she could have had any other seat.
She sat there without speaking, wearing a neutral expression on her face, and then got off a few stops later, and the three of us got off soon after.
Was she an angel who sat there to protect us from the satanist's bad vibes? Or was she giving us a silent message to keep away from him in future? We just don't know.

Maybe she thought the satanist was hot and had to protect him from the creepy evangelist?

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 22 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Well if you read the Bible, you'll get some insight in their minds. God consistently killed people in order to "punish" others because He values emotional torment more than death. Speaking of David, how did God "punish" David after he impregnated a married woman and sent her husband off to die to get rid of him? By killing their innocent child of course. That is the mind of God.



No, David stopped God's angel of murder by pleading with God, just like Moses did several times before Moses gave up and let God kill as often as He wanted. Isn't it great that the Bible is full of mortals like David and Moses who value human life enough to stop God from killing people He really wanted to kill? It is any wonder why so many people are putting faith in humanity instead of this monstrous God in the Bible?

In the Bible, humans regularly proved to be more forgiving and loving than God was or is able to be. That is the message in the Bible that so few people ever realize even though it's evident in story after story. I think people just get numb to how God exterminated people like insects.



So you believe that atrocities are justifiable when they have God's Seal of Approval. I find this disgusting.

I as not commenting onmy own opinions.I dont believe in the literal truth of the bible. I am commenting on the bible as a book written with a purpose. In such a story the god in it WILL have logical rational and, to the readers of the time, ETHICAL reasons for "his" actions Otherwise the story doesnt make sense, and defeats its own purpose.

Was the bombing of dresden or nagasaki justifiable? It all depends on your point of view. Was the destruction of sodom and gommorah justifiable? it all depends on your world view .My point is that god,s world view would be differnt to yours or mine or even david's. David did not stop god. He would be incapable of stopping god. God chose to stop the killing after hearing david's plea.You woud have to understnad the mind of god at tha ttime to know why he chose to  listen to david. Perhaps david and moses were actually wrong and god was right. HOw do you know which was right? How do you know whether the bombings of dresen or nagasaki were better than the other alternatives which would have occured, if the allies had  chosen not to do them.

In the story of the bible, the  god in it  sees  many, or all if you believe this god is omniscient, alternative outcomes, and choses between them out of love, to provide the best outcomes for the most people.

God is not tormenting people, any more than an executioner is tormenting the loved ones of a  legally condemned criminal, or a volcano is tormenting its victims.

Ps humans kill millions of innocent unborn children every year. They also kill millions of  innocent young children men and women through war, neglect, and failure to help them. I dont see humans as morally superior to god. Arguably, apart from gods greater evolved capabilities including  much greater/ wider life experience, wisdom, and ability to extrapolate consequences, we are equally capable of morality.

Edited by Mr Walker, 22 January 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[Jor-el]

What do you people think an angel actually is?

To me it is a generic word that covers a whole host of different beings, only some of which are actually messengers. Islam for example believes in angels but they also believe in another type of being called Djinn. Christianity divides angels in to Archangels and angels, Judaism once diveded it into angels and "sons of God" (lesser gods).

[Mr Walker]

Etu Malku, on 22 January 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Throughout my studies on trance and music I've come to understand possession as a cultural phenomenon. That one desires this possession to take place and that the entities involved are a part of the person's spiritual background and makeup.

You don't find people living in Vatican City being possessed by Lwa of the Vodoun pantheon, or the Yezidi of Kurdistan being possessed by Roman Catholic angels/demons.

And you usually never find atheists being possessed by anything.

Oh i know many atheists who act like they are possessed. They just call it some form of mental illness, and often they are correct.

I am not sure how the whole "possesion" thing works. i am aware that iam ocupied by an entity which  is powerful, loving, healing,  protective and empowering. I know that my mind has many elements and forms of consciousness. I would suspect that this is another form of that consciousness, except that it convincingly displays knowledge, power and abilities, which science does not recognise as existing within human beings. It protects me from negative possession, from depression, anger, hate, envy, jealousy, lust, fear etc grief.; because, while it is in me (which is all the time ) I cant experience those things unless I deliberately chose to. I am protected from them by the presence of all the good things in life gifted to me by that presence.

[Mr Walker]

Jor-el, on 22 January 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

What do you people think an angel actually is?

To me it is a generic word that covers a whole host of different beings, only some of which are actually messengers. Islam for example believes in angels but they also believe in another type of being called Djinn. Christianity divides angels in to Archangels and angels, Judaism once diveded it into angels and "sons of God" (lesser gods).

IMO "angel", like "god", is a word (linguistic label) which people apply to a certain type or form of entity.That entity can be a purely  mental construct or a physical,  perceived being. eg like father christmas which some kids have a mentla construc  of and others have seen in the flesh, so to speak.

As long as an entity basically fits within the parameters defined in human minds by that label, it is an angel. Of course that is an english /human word for them. They probably have their own names for them selves

Edited by Mr Walker, 22 January 2013 - 11:48 PM.

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 22 January 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

..why is it that angels help some people some times, why not all the people all the time...

Because not all people qualify for their help..

"If you make the Most High your dwelling
even the Lord, who is my refuge, then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent, for he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways" Psalm 91:9-11