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Cradle of civilization-Is it Dwarka


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#31    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:46 AM

Most of the above excerpts are from the same link in the topic for those who would like to also look at the pictures.


#32    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:08 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 23 April 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

A delta is one place you can find anything and everything washed down from the rivers, from ancient stuff to modern waste.
  • Now, if some clay shards are washed down from the rivers to the delta, and the Scientists from the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) find these shards, do  they investigate about the origin of these shards or do they make a conclusion that they could have been an ancient city/civilization right at the place where these shards have been found???
  • How does dating a piece of wood lead the NIOT scientists to the conclusion that there was a city or culture or civilization at the spot where it was found? is all that data engraved on that damn piece of wood????
  • Are NIOT scientists qualified to make such judgments without consulting with Archaeological survey of India???
  • Why haven't the people who made these absurd claims not trying to refute when their claims and finds have been debunked by proper archaeologists?
Please refer to this link to see what Asko Parpola and iravatham mahadevan, respected authorities on the Indus valley/Harappan civilization has to say about the finds.


Correction : I was using the Abbreviation NIO instead of NIOT erroneously
National Institute of Oceanography, Goa  & National Institute of Ocean technology, vishakapattanam are two different entities in India.
Now coming back  to the “artefacts” dredged from the sea floor (Note -  the term here is dredged and not excavated or recovered, especially by Marine Archaeologists), here is a good anlaysis about the ‘artefacts’ at this link. Note that the person who authored the article is a trained archaeologist and not a fringe rainbow chaser like hancock.

I guess Harte has already posted the same content, but albeit from a different website.
Please read the article that i posted in the Link most of your questions are addressed in it. And i have also posted relevant material answering similar querries from other posters.


#33    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

Some people tried to question the artifacts found at the site, some call in natural and some say that it might have been washed down the river.

All these questions are addressed in the article.

Ther are shards of fired pottery that are definitely manmade and have been used in the dating of the site after determining that the shards were insitu originally and have not been washed down a river channel.

Posted Image

Posted Image
There were also many microlithic tools found there by dredging:

Posted Image

Posted Image

A fossilised mandible and clay jewellry was also found.

Posted Image


There are some here who would still claim that all of this is natural and not manmade.....but it is more difficult to explain the structures associated with the site as natural:


In these surveys it was the SideScan Sonar which gave excellent results supported by other systems. Initially two major palaeo channels of rivers were recognized. One over a length of 9.2km and another over 9.0km. When these were sampled, it was seen that just below a thin marine sediment cover of few centimeters, river alluvium and pebbles typical of terrestrial river sediments, below which typical river conglomerates were observed at depth. Such evidence clearly indicated that the area presently under sea, was originally dry land over which rivers were flowing. Due to different factors, they got submerged and now lie beneath the sea. The sonar images showed regular geometric patterns in one palaeo channel over a length of 9km in the sea about 20km west of Hazira coastal area. Associated with this on either side of the palaeo channel , basement like features in a grid pattern were observed at a water depth of 20-40m. These resemble an urban habitation site wherein, in the basement now at the bottom of the sea, pit like structures are seen. Another palaeo channel over 9.2km was detected off Suvali coastal area. Here also similar features were observed. In general the basement like features were located in a linear east-west direction on either side of the palaeo channel. It is seen that these features are 5x4m size on the eastern side whereas the westernmost part had dimensions of 16 x 15m. The habitation sites are all seen to be laid in a strict grid like pattern (Fig.5) indicating a good sense of town planning by the ancients.


Figure – 6


There were also evidences of water conducting system like canals, etc. All these point to a properly planned township, with a high level of knowledge and practice by the ancients. The area in general is seen to be covered by sand waves which occur above the seabed. Often these cover the dwelling but even then the shapes could be made out (Fig.6). Apart from the regular sites of habitation, the Side Scan Sonar picked up images of several big structures. Some of these structures are as follows :

There is a rectangular (41m x25m) shaped depression, wherein one can sea steps gradually going down to reach a depth of about 7m (Fig.7). Surrounding this depression there is a wall like projection on all sites. One could observe an inlet and outlet and also a separate enclosure. This looks like a tank or bathing facility now occurring below 40m of sea water. It occurs near the western periphery of the town. It resembles the “Great Bath” that is found in the ruins of “Mohonjadaro” and “Harappa”, where also these occur on the western side of the township. There are two divisions in the tank, which may represent separate enclosures for men and women or for socially higher and lower categories of people. There are two openings probably for inlet and exit of water to keep the water in the tank fresh and clean.

Posted Image
Figure – 7


In Fig.8 one could observe a long linear prominent and well made basement of a major structure measuring 200m x 45m. It nestles on high ground and one can seesteps on the right corner approaching the structure. Inside the structure there are many 18m and above square shaped room like features with fortifications surrounding it. This type of huge structures resembles the “CITADAL” found in Mohanjodaro, Harrappa, Dholavira wherein these occur at the western extremity again on the high ground. Probably it is an administrative building supervising the entire civic activities of the township or could be a place of worship. Some pieces of fossilized human bones, natural teeth and

some fossilized animal bones were recovered during sampling on the eastern side of the citadel


Figure – 8


Sonar image in Fig.9 picked up a major dilapidated structure measuring 190m x 85m with spaces separated by what looks like collapsed walls. In front of it, on the bottom side there are several basements of rectangular shaped 2.5 to 3.5m x 6m structures, resembling minor dwellings. It could be an ancient granary for the township probably with dwelling place nearby, for the workers. In the nearby areas some fossilized food grains have been collected. In many of the Harappan sites the granary is a regular feature.

The image in Fig.10 is that of a basement of a buried settlement and it measures 74m x 48m. It has regular square, rectangular and arch shapes. The darker portions are the elevated or standout features. These indicate that there are still some constructed portions standing up partly. To the north of the structure also, a few square and rectangular shaped basements are visible.

A buried structural basement is depicted in Fig.11. The main structure measures 40m x 19m with wall-like dark features rising to 2-3m above the seabed. A series of step-like features are seen approaching the structure from the right side. To one corner of the main structure a 11m x 7m rectangular depression looking like a small tank or pond is observed.

Posted Image
Figure – 9


Sub-bottom profiler surveys, instead of reflecting sound waves from the seabed like side scan sonar, penetrate the seabed. The waves travel beneath the seabed in different formations in different speeds and the instrument collects the reflection data over selected frequencies. It provides good depth information on geological features apart from delineating any suspected buried anthropogenic structures.

The sub-bottom profiler image in Fig.12 is below the 200m x 45m Citadel like structure. The standout features were picked up at regular intervals and appear to be the basement and foundations of the structure. It is observed that the foundations have been dug up to 5-6m in the soil over which broad column like features have been constructed, probably to take the load of the huge structure above.

The sub-bottom profiler image in Fig.13 is below the buried settlement of 74 x 48m structure. Here also man made foundations like column can be clearly seen emerging from below the seabed and occur as standout features. Here, the foundations have been dug up to 3-4 m deep in the soil. These types of planning and method of construction by ancients clearly reveal that they had a very good knowledge of civil and structural engineering, wherein broader and deeper foundations were provided for bigger and heavier structures and thinner and shallow foundations for comparatively smaller structures. Likewise almost all the structures including the dwelling sites indicate a good amount of planning and design, taking into consideration the structural aspects.

Posted Image




Posted Image
Figure – 11





#34    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

Posted Image

Just for you harte, rather curved and miniscule.


#35    The_Spartan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:46 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 24 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Please read the article that i posted in the Link most of your questions are addressed in it. And i have also posted relevant material answering similar querries from other posters.

Please provide links to the matters from accerdited agencies like NIOT/NIO and not fringe con men like Hancock?
can you?

This is what i called a classic example of beating around the bush.


if you got selective blindness to certain posts  i could use bigger fonts

TRY TO PROVIDE LINKS TO MATTERS FROM NIOT WEBSITE OR MATTER PRESENTED IN PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS AND NOT FROM  THE FIRGNE RAINBOW CHASER HANCOCK'S WEBSITE.

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#36    The_Spartan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:02 AM

Harsh,  can you provide more information on "Dr S Badrinaryan"??

The article from hancock's  is stated as authored by  "Badrinaryan Badrinaryan"

If i was Badrinaryan,  i surely wouldnt misspell my own name!!!

Are you sure this is the same Dr. S badrinaryan?????


What chances are that the entire essay would have been a fabirication? Just a honest answer, please?

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#37    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 24 April 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Please provide links to the matters from accerdited agencies like NIOT/NIO and not fringe con men like Hancock?
can you?

This is what i called a classic example of beating around the bush.


if you got selective blindness to certain posts  i could use bigger fonts

TRY TO PROVIDE LINKS TO MATTERS FROM NIOT WEBSITE OR MATTER PRESENTED IN PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS AND NOT FROM  THE FIRGNE RAINBOW CHASER HANCOCK'S WEBSITE.
Find them yourself,
Most of the data here is from the NIOT reports including the pictures.

Here will assist you for the same:

http://www.niot.res....lications01.php

http://www.niot.res....sh, S&id3=&id4=

http://www.niot.res....u, KM&id3=&id4=

http://www.niot.res....an, B&id3=&id4=

You have to request them for a print.You can take the print and cross verify the information.

Here are the abstracts of these three reports
Detailed underwater surveys carried out in the Gulf of Cambay, about 20 km west of Hazira, deploying side scan sonar and sub bottom profiler brought to light, the presence of a submerged palaeochannel traceable to a length of 9 km. Associated with this on either side are basement like features found in a grid pattern at water depths of 20-40 m. Sub-surface sampling carried out with dredge and grab sampler revealed stone artefacts, potsherds, hearth pieces, animal bones and human teeth embedded in fluvial sands and silts. In the upper part of the deposit, a carbonised wooden log was found and dated to around 9500 years BP by '4C method. Marine magnetic survey carried out does not indicate the presence of any major metallic debris/objects. This appears to be one of the early records of prehistoric human activity of early Holocene age in the marine environment of India.

India, with a coastline of over 7,500 km, is known to have engaged in maritime trade from the second half of the first millennium BC. Geophysical surveys conducted off the coast of Bombay, Laccadives, Tranquebar, Kutch, Cambay, Kaveripattinam and Visakapatnam have recorded shipwrecks, submerged cities, ports and channels. It is highly probable that the shelf off the Andhra, Kerala, Gujarat and Tamil Nadu coasts, if properly surveyed, will yield not only vestiges of prehistoric man and his tools but also submerged river channels and ports. A preliminary survey of the Gulf of Cambay with side-scan sonar soundings and a sub-bottom profiler revealed unnatural features. Further exploration through dredging brought to light artefacts that bore testimony to human activity.



The geophysical investigations carried out in the Gulf of Cambay by the scientists from the Coastal and Environmental Engineering Division of the National Institute of Ocean Technology [NIOT] from 1998 to 2005 for various consultancy projects and the geo-archaeological explorations from 2000 to 2004 brought to light two important features. These are:1. Presence of neotectonic activity indicated in the sub-surface data logged through sparker and subbottom profiler survey; and 2. Material evidence indicating that the present day Gulf was part of the landmass connected to the mainland for a continuous period of 8000 years, from 11,000 BP, until it was submerged around 3000 BR. Besides, the Thermo Luminescence/ Optically Stimulated Luminescence [TL/ OSL] and "C dates of 11,000 BP to 3000 BP obtained for the artefacts and Paleochannel , discovered in the area under study. substantiated this inference. Purananuru, one of the early Tamil classical literatures, mentions the migration of people from the Gujarat region


You can go and verify all you want.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 24 April 2013 - 08:12 AM.


#38    The_Spartan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:13 AM

gentlemen and laides,

For your reading pleasure,

New Archaeological sites in the Gulf of Cambay, India - by S. Kathiroli, S. Badrinarayanan, D. V. Rao, B. Sasisekaran, and K. M. Sivakolundu, National Institute of Ocean Technology, Chennai, India


Quote

The side-scan sonar images have picked up rectangular basements like feature on either side of the palaeochannel with a relief of 2 to 3 m from the seabed and vary in size from 5  × 5 m2 to as much as 15 × 15 m2
. These features are often covered by sand waves. At places basements of possibly major structures have been picked up (Figure 3). The sub-bottom profiler survey clearly revealed successive layers made up of foundation-like features and cultural strata indicated by acoustic impedance contrast below the basement.
The sites identified by side-scan survey were subjected to sampling by a Van Veen grab sampler, dredge sampler, and by gravity and vibro corers. Quite a few artefacts of archaeological importance have been recovered from these sites, which are absent outside the area adjoining the palaeochannel. The artefacts identified included many beads, of which a broken barrel-shaped bead of chert (Figure 3a ), measuring 13 mm in length and 6 mm in width and with a 4 m diameter hole, is important.
As per Gosh (1989), the tradition of making beads is at least 7000 years old. A chert blade scraper (Fig- ure 3b), measuring 76 mm in length, with a width varying from 35mm to 19 mm and with a thickness of 10 mm, typologically belonging to the upper Palaeolithic cultural tradition, was also recovered.
Low-fired and grass-embedded pottery pieces were recovered, along with broken hearth material. The piece appears to be made of fine, well levigated clay and is about 3 mm across. The perforated stone piece was examined under an optical image analyzer. The examination revealed, in 100 X magnification, that the holes are irregularly oval in shape and have varying contours. This appears to be con nected with deliberate boring activity by a stone tool like a borer, which was quite common in the prehistoric period.  In addition, quite a few human bones, as well as a few teeth, have been recovered from the area.


And the Conclusion in the Journal paper

Quote


In view of this strong evidence, it can be stated that there was human habitation in the area along the then existing river channel, which appears to have been inundated by marine transgression, probably caused by sea level rise and tectonic events in the area. The evidence provided by NIOT in the Gulf of Cambay has prompted the Govern ment of India to set up a 'National Team' to probe the area further to unravel the details of these exciting marine archaeological findings.
The details of the discovery are expected to change the present view of the prehistory of India and its environs.



Where the heck have they claimed that they found a city?????
Where the heck have they claimed that they found an ancient civilization, older than the IVC???
I got a whole lot of Where the Heck questions!!!!

Mr. Harsh Patel, care to answer??????

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#39    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 24 April 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

Harsh,  can you provide more information on "Dr S Badrinaryan"??

The article from hancock's  is stated as authored by  "Badrinaryan Badrinaryan"

If i was Badrinaryan,  i surely wouldnt misspell my own name!!!

Are you sure this is the same Dr. S badrinaryan?????


What chances are that the entire essay would have been a fabirication? Just a honest answer, please?
Very little chances that it is a fabrication, have already put the links for the official NIOT reports on the same. No need to trust the essay, you have to mail a request to them and find out for yourself.


#40    The_Spartan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:20 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 24 April 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:


--------


You make the claims.
We question your claims.

And now you are telling us to "You can go and verify all you want."
Why the heck and why in the hell should i do it , bro?
It is your claim. It is your responsibilty to prove your claim. its not our business to go arouind trying to prove your claims wrong. ou state your claim with evidence, we review your claim agaisnt your evidence and then we say whether your claim stands or not.
not the other way around?

Seriously! And you talk  about science when you cant even follow a simple review????


Anyway, i have posted the link to the report in a Journal. Read it and prove what you claim or eat your shoes if you can.

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 24 April 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Very little chances that it is a fabrication, have already put the links for the official NIOT reports on the same. No need to trust the essay, you have to mail a request to them and find out for yourself.

I will surely do so.
Have you done so? do you have the reports?
If so, why the hell arent you sharing them with us over here now????

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#41    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:23 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 24 April 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

gentlemen and laides,

For your reading pleasure,

New Archaeological sites in the Gulf of Cambay, India - by S. Kathiroli, S. Badrinarayanan, D. V. Rao, B. Sasisekaran, and K. M. Sivakolundu, National Institute of Ocean Technology, Chennai, India




And the Conclusion in the Journal paper




Where the heck have they claimed that they found a city?????
Where the heck have they claimed that they found an ancient civilization, older than the IVC???
I got a whole lot of Where the Heck questions!!!!

Mr. Harsh Patel, care to answer??????
I can smell the desperation:

An abstract from the NIOT report:

India, with a coastline of over 7,500 km, is known to have engaged in maritime trade from the second half of the first millennium BC. Geophysical surveys conducted off the coast of Bombay, Laccadives, Tranquebar, Kutch, Cambay, Kaveripattinam and Visakapatnam have recorded shipwrecks, submerged cities, ports and channels. It is highly probable that the shelf off the Andhra, Kerala, Gujarat and Tamil Nadu coasts, if properly surveyed, will yield not only vestiges of prehistoric man and his tools but also submerged river channels and ports. A preliminary survey of the Gulf of Cambay with side-scan sonar soundings and a sub-bottom profiler revealed unnatural features. Further exploration through dredging brought to light artefacts that bore testimony to human activity.

http://www.niot.res....u, KM&id3=&id4=

Here you can request for the full report.

Have already posted the links in a previous post to you right now, you can go back and refer to it.


#42    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 24 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

You make the claims.
We question your claims.

And now you are telling us to "You can go and verify all you want."
Why the heck and why in the hell should i do it , bro?
It is your claim. It is your responsibilty to prove your claim. its not our business to go arouind trying to prove your claims wrong. ou state your claim with evidence, we review your claim agaisnt your evidence and then we say whether your claim stands or not.
not the other way around?

Seriously! And you talk  about science when you cant even follow a simple review????


Anyway, i have posted the link to the report in a Journal. Read it and prove what you claim or eat your shoes if you can.



I will surely do so.
Have you done so? do you have the reports?
If so, why the hell arent you sharing them with us over here now????
I belive that the essay on Hancocks site is factual. You have a doubt so clarify it yourself, i have already helped you.


#43    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 24 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

You make the claims.
We question your claims.

And now you are telling us to "You can go and verify all you want."
Why the heck and why in the hell should i do it , bro?
It is your claim. It is your responsibilty to prove your claim. its not our business to go arouind trying to prove your claims wrong. ou state your claim with evidence, we review your claim agaisnt your evidence and then we say whether your claim stands or not.
not the other way around?



I have created the topic, i have put forward my opinion and i have put the relevant material already for everyone to see.
You doubt the material i have posted, because you don't like Hancock, though he has never been caught lying or doing dishonest things.
I have given you a link to an alternate and most direct source of the reports, now since you doubt Hancock's and my integrity...even if i were to post any other information you would still doubt it.
That is the reason i have posted the link, so you can request the reports from NIOT via email and verify yourself, where neither me or graham hancock would be involved.
No i have not yet requested the original reports from NIOT as i believe the essay on Hancocks's site to be factual.Most of the pictures bear the NIOT official logo and most of the information matches the newspaper reports.
I don't think Graham Hancock would present his backside for a good spanking to people like you, by lying about things in public domain and easily verifiable.


#44    The_Spartan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:33 AM

Since its you who has given the links to the artricles on NIOT website, i am asking you whether you have managed to collect the articles or have they given you access to the articles.

If you have the articles/papers, why are you not sharing them with us over here?
If they didnt provide you the articles/papers, why the hell are you bothering to put the links in here,  without even knowing their contents.???

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#45    The_Spartan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:45 AM

desperation??

Not depseration.

Just sadness that i am dealing with a fringe rainbow chaser named harsh patel instead of a Skeptic or intelligent man who uses common sense!!


Quote

A preliminary survey of the Gulf of Cambay with side-scan sonar soundings and a sub-bottom profiler revealed unnatural features. Further exploration through dredging brought to light artefacts that bore testimony to human activity.

Are these gentlemen who authored the paper trained archaeologists to make that claim?
No.
have they considered the possibilites of these artefacts and objects being transported there, by natural means??
No.

Quote

In view of this strong evidence, it can be stated that there was human habitation in the area along the then existing river channel, which appears to have been inundated by marine transgression, probably caused by sea level rise and tectonic events in the area. The evidence provided by NIOT in the Gulf of Cambay has prompted the Govern ment of India to set up a 'National Team' to probe the area further to unravel the details of these exciting marine archaeological findings.
The details of the discovery are expected to change the present view of the prehistory of India and its environs.

there is nothing in this report that is wrong.
the NIOt team found some material they dedged from the spots and they have doubts that these could be from human habitations along the rivers in the area.
thats all.  They havent claimed

1. That there was a city down there.
2. thery didnt claim a civilization older than IVC
3. All they did was find some stuff and they have informed the government, which from advice of archaeologists, have found their find "wanting".

Thats all.

I am reading the article with common sense.
I think you are looking for deliberate textual paraidolia in the articles.

The article you have linked from Hancock's website is suspicious.

1. The chief scientist of NIOT during the finds was Dr. Sa Badrinaryan and not Badirnaryan Badrinaryan
2. Unless i get the articles from NIOT, i cannot confirm whether the pictures with NIOT logo as displayed in the article, is actually from NIOT. (i can also make NOT logos and put on them pics top claim that they are from NIOT)
3. Prominent Indus Valely experts like Asko parpola and iravatham mahadevanbhave refuted and debunked "evidences" trying to connect the finds to Indus Valley and Harrapan Cvilization.
4. The valid questions raised by archeologists have not been asnwered aby anyone.
5. Why hasnt there been any further dive or exploration in this area where the finds were made, if it were true and the Indian Govt shouldf have been on the move last decade itself. Why no no action for a decade and till now???

More questions bro, which you cant or wont or wil lfind it tough to answer!!

"Wise men, when in doubt whether to speak or to keep quiet, give themselves the benefit of the doubt, and remain silent.-Napoleon Hill

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