64 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

Hasina, on 02 September 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

Well, I just caught Arceus, the god of Pokemon, so I say no, cause I control him!

How does your capturing him negate his free will?
Tomorrow, won't he have "escaped ", and you will have to do it all over again?

  Forgive my ignorance of Pokemon game- play.

[Mr Walker]

JGirl, on 01 September 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

no i don't believe god is self aware. self is ego and god is not a person, as i said earlier, so therefore god does not have ego so therefore 'self' awareness is irrelevent too.
i believe god is an all conscious entity  although entity is not the word i would use. and no i am not saying god must have free will;. as you must have read in my original post i said god cannot possibly have free will because that is a mortal concept.

Mmmn, I dont really understand your personal construct/understanding of god from your posts so far.
If god is conscious, is it not self aware and sapient? Does your god know itself? Does it question? Is it creative imaginative etc? How did it reach the state it is in now? Did it self generate, complete and as it is now? Has it always existed completed and as it is now? Did it evolve and is it presently capable of change or is it perfected and incapapble of cahnge
And many human linguistic constructs can be, and are, applied to both physical and metaphysical entities Eg I can call an apple red or say i am in love and others will know what i mean.

Does your god recognise or care about  elemants of the universe outside of /apart from itslef or  which is not aware of its existence.
I fit recognises the separation of self from others does it care about self; does it care about other?
If it cares, does that motivate it to act? Is it capable of physical action/manipulation of the universe?

[JGirl]

Mr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Mmmn, I dont really understand your personal construct/understanding of god from your posts so far.
If god is conscious, is it not self aware and sapient? Does your god know itself? Does it question? Is it creative imaginative etc? How did it reach the state it is in now? Did it self generate, complete and as it is now? Has it always existed completed and as it is now? Did it evolve and is it presently capable of change or is it perfected and incapapble of cahnge
And many human linguistic constructs can be, and are, applied to both physical and metaphysical entities Eg I can call an apple red or say i am in love and others will know what i mean.

Does your god recognise or care about  elemants of the universe outside of /apart from itslef or  which is not aware of its existence.
I fit recognises the separation of self from others does it care about self; does it care about other?
If it cares, does that motivate it to act? Is it capable of physical action/manipulation of the universe?

no offense but i think you're just asking the same thing overandoverandover. i believe i've answered sufficiently when i said god is not a person. self is a human thing, an ego thing. god has no ego so anything that you relate to self, as in self awareness etc is a human thing and is limited to humans in my opinion.
so stop microanalysing what isn't there ok?

[Mr Walker]

JGirl, on 02 September 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

no offense but i think you're just asking the same thing overandoverandover. i believe i've answered sufficiently when i said god is not a person. self is a human thing, an ego thing. god has no ego so anything that you relate to self, as in self awareness etc is a human thing and is limited to humans in my opinion.
so stop microanalysing what isn't there ok?

You probably have a clear inner picture of what you feel god is, but the description you have given doesnt contain enough information to transmit that understanding to me.

Of course that is your prerogative  and i wont even question your motivation. Your god is your god, however you envisage it to be. I am curious about all constructs and perceptions of god by humans. There are so many of them. That is why I asked the open ended questions I did in the op. I will go back over your posts and see if i can understand your concept of god better, from what you have already explained.

To me, arguing that god cant have free will because free will is a human conceptual construct and label,  is like saying a snake can't be black because the colour black is a human conceptual construct  and label. Yes it is, but a snake can still be black or not black. And a non human entity can have, or not have, free will.

As an aside, do you think apes dolphins etc will evolve a sense of self awareness, as they evolve human level sapience? What about an artificial intelligence with human level intelligence and sapience? Will it have an understanding of self/nonself ie a sense of self awareness? Will it ask, "who am I? What is my purpose in being etc?"

Ps, if any other readers want to throw in an opinion on these questions, Id be fascinated to hear some different views.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 September 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[The Mule]

Mr Walker, on 01 September 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Ok but you believe that himans have free will, and cannot escape responsibilty for their choices and actions? If you were asked to design/construct a god, would you build free will into your  design/ construct ? Why /why not?

First off...there are times when "**** happens"...like just because you're drunk and on drugs, doesnt mean the accident wouldnt have happened when you're sober. Kidding....no sometimes accidents happen and you didnt have "free will"...more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may seem like "fate." But when you start to think everything is pre-ordained, then I have the green light to kill my neighbors dog for barking at 3am, or even my neighbor, because I lack freewill, therefore god must have wanted it this way.

So in creating a god....a god can do as he/she pleases with his/her creations. Which is where you have me in a quandry. For in order for US (his creations) to have free-will, he has to give away his own power over us. God preventing strife and starvation and indecency to fellow human beings would again be taking away our free will, unless he created us to be free from evil. Which clearly he has not. Therefore there can be no god if there is any type of free will.

Its only 8 am, I hope I stated what I mean clearly enough. If not - its because as a mule I lack the free will you humans have...

[shadowhive]

Mr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

As to the second if you were a space faring sapient being, several millenia more evolved than we are and came across a  race of about cromagnon evolutionary level How would YOU deal with them? Mpre to the point how would THEY perceive you and your technologies abilities Sapient beings are curious imaginative and creative. They like to comunicate. They have a capacity and even a tendency to care for other entities, especially other self aware entities.  The ability to communicate is a part of what made them self aware and sapient

If I was such an entity, sure I'd take an interest. I'd study them and try to be incredible subtle about it (anyone that's seen Star Trek will know how dangerous the possibility of detection could be).

However, after stufficient study, I'd more on. Now are you really trying to suggest that such an entity would not only not move on, but stick around for millenia? For what purpose?

Quote

Would you care about such beings, and if you did care,   would you chose to leave them alone and  make their own mistakes, or would you intervene, as much as you could, to educate and to guide the race. Given that you are NOT omnisicient and omnipotent,  but seem so to such a peoples, how would you deal with them, and how could you stop them seeing you as gods? Or perhaps, if it motivated them more emotionally and viscerally, would you actually encourage such a belief, in order to help their social evolution and help them become more constructive, less destructive, peoples What if you knew that a common religion could reduce conflict, and create social cohesion, speeding up the growth of civilization and human development?

It would depend on the level of the mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and I don't feel it would be my responsibility to correct every mistake a species would make. The exception would probably be if the species was close to self destruction or had gained access to something that would cause damage beyond there planet. Then it would be necessary to intervene (especially with the latter) although again, I'd try and do it in a way that was subtle.

I'd do all my best to not given them such ideas and I'd certainly not encourage them to believe such things. Why? Look at what religion has done on this planet. Sure, some good things have resulted, but there has been an absurd amount of infighting and trouble caused between them that they come across like children. Giving such a race religion would not just set them back, but ultimately do much more harm than good.

Again, look at Earth. When we went to America we found the native Americans. Instead of leaving them in peace to their own religion, we decided they needed a 'common reliugion' and forced it upon them, causing great harm to them as a people and severely marginalising them. I have no doubt that an attempt at a 'common religion' would result in the same disaster in another species and I would want absolutely no part in destroying another race's culture in such a way.

What would you do in that situation?

Edited by shadowhive, 02 September 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[Mr Walker]

shadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

If I was such an entity, sure I'd take an interest. I'd study them and try to be incredible subtle about it (anyone that's seen Star Trek will know how dangerous the possibility of detection could be).

However, after stufficient study, I'd more on. Now are you really trying to suggest that such an entity would not only not move on, but stick around for millenia? For what purpose?



It would depend on the level of the mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and I don't feel it would be my responsibility to correct every mistake a species would make. The exception would probably be if the species was close to self destruction or had gained access to something that would cause damage beyond there planet. Then it would be necessary to intervene (especially with the latter) although again, I'd try and do it in a way that was subtle.

I'd do all my best to not given them such ideas and I'd certainly not encourage them to believe such things. Why? Look at what religion has done on this planet. Sure, some good things have resulted, but there has been an absurd amount of infighting and trouble caused between them that they come across like children. Giving such a race religion would not just set them back, but ultimately do much more harm than good.

Again, look at Earth. When we went to America we found the native Americans. Instead of leaving them in peace to their own religion, we decided they needed a 'common reliugion' and forced it upon them, causing great harm to them as a people and severely marginalising them. I have no doubt that an attempt at a 'common religion' would result in the same disaster in another species and I would want absolutely no part in destroying another race's culture in such a way.

What would you do in that situation?

Ive watched every episode of startrek and its derivatives several times. As a kid it was one tv programme i was alowed to stay up and watch because my dad watched it. I never thought their non interventionist policy was either right or workable It seemed to me like a philosophy dreamed up by some leftwing hollywood writer who believed that humans had no right to try and help or improve the lot of others in the universe.  MAybe it had a deeper underpinings as in an anti colonial philosophy  but it stilll didnt work for me.

Any way I can see your pov but I am not sure I agree with it. Any space faring race has obviously survived its infancy and troubled teenage years,  and managed to combine impressive technology with that survival Something humans are not yet guaranteed of. Surely such a race could offer a lot to more primitive peoples in many facets of understanding.

Humans have always had religions, from neandertal  and cromagnon times.  While there isn't any real evidence of it, It is possible that advanced spacefaring races might pass on forms of religion they knew would promote a species ultimate survival. I like spock's world view, and empathise with the vulcans. As our technology grows, primitive emotional responses are not just inappropriate they can be deadly to both individuals and to our species

A bit of a side bar i guess. but then i see god as a powerful alien entity with a long term commitment to, and relationship with, the human race. PArt of its purpose in its dealings with us is the uplift of humanity to a saner more rational species.

In any contact one civilization will dominatem as was found during the european expansion on earth  Beliefs adapt to  the level of civilization, and especially technology of a species.  Indigenous and aboriginal belieds simply became unworkable when confronted with european technology knolwedge and power.  If earth is contacted by a space faring race, our own beliefs will be altered. If we are the space faring race, our beliefs will alter those of the indigenous inhabitants. It is historically inevitable. A belif is a construct based on knowledge understanding and ones place in the surrounding environment

Find yourself facing new (more advanced) extensive knowledge and technology, and not just your understanding of your place in the universe, but your associated spiritual and religious beliefs,  based on that understanding, will be altered without anyone having to try and convert you.

In the end, most humans in a modern technological society are far better  off, by all physical parameters, than those in a hunter gatherer one. Not as happy, perhaps, but that is another issue.

I suspect humans need to evolve/ create a new spiritual dimension which is a better fit to our current knowledge bases and technology, and enables us to be happy because we can once again have an understanding of our place and purpose in life.

One of the biggest causes of human unhappiness in the present world is our disassociation from so many things, especially from society, neighbours,  and community; but also from our  sense of self and true identity. Past humans had all these things, and despite very harsh physical conditions (by our standards) were far happier in their lives.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 September 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Karlis]

shadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

If I was such an entity, sure I'd take an interest. ...


However, after stufficient study, I'd more on. Now are you really trying to suggest that such an entity would not only not move on, but stick around for millenia? For what purpose? ...

~~~ ...

For what purpose would God "stick around for millennia"? Well, according to Bible Scriptures, God created Mankind with the purpose of bringing many children into his God family. That's as good a reason as any for staying around till they are born into his family.

[Mr Walker]

The Mule, on 02 September 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

First off...there are times when "**** happens"...like just because you're drunk and on drugs, doesnt mean the accident wouldnt have happened when you're sober. Kidding....no sometimes accidents happen and you didnt have "free will"...more like being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That may seem like "fate." But when you start to think everything is pre-ordained, then I have the green light to kill my neighbors dog for barking at 3am, or even my neighbor, because I lack freewill, therefore god must have wanted it this way.

So in creating a god....a god can do as he/she pleases with his/her creations. Which is where you have me in a quandry. For in order for US (his creations) to have free-will, he has to give away his own power over us. God preventing strife and starvation and indecency to fellow human beings would again be taking away our free will, unless he created us to be free from evil. Which clearly he has not. Therefore there can be no god if there is any type of free will.

Its only 8 am, I hope I stated what I mean clearly enough. If not - its because as a mule I lack the free will you humans have...

Interesting thoughts. I would tend to think the same if i did not know god existed.

So my rationale is that gods are not omniscient and omnipotent, they are simply older wiser and more evolved sapient beings. Some will say this disqualifies them as gods, but of course it does not. Humans have a wide range of parameters for what is a god. The norse, egyptian, greek, and roman gods, for example,  were not omnisicient nor omnipotent. They had many of the flaws of humanity.

ANother theological pov is that gods could overide human free will, but chose not to. In my experience god cant override my free will. If he wants to change outcomes  for me, he has to work with me, or else change my environment,  to change those outcomes. If he wants to change my mind he has to work at educating me. He cant just take control of my mind and change it. However if he wants to say save my life he can do that without affecting my free will, by altering the environment around me.

So, if for example god warns me of an oncoming truck but i refuse to listen,  rather tha try and force me to avoid the truck, he simply alters its trajectory to miss me, Only on very rare occasions that I have heard of, does god physically intervene, overiding a persons free will, and for example pushes them out of the way of a speeding car or a falling piano.

[shadowhive]

Karlis, on 02 September 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

For what purpose would God "stick around for millennia"? Well, according to Bible Scriptures, God created Mankind with the purpose of bringing many children into his God family. That's as good a reason as any for staying around till they are born into his family.

Why do that though? If god wanted a  family why not just make one? Why make a middle step?

[Mr Walker]

Karlis, on 02 September 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

For what purpose would God "stick around for millennia"? Well, according to Bible Scriptures, God created Mankind with the purpose of bringing many children into his God family. That's as good a reason as any for staying around till they are born into his family.

Any fully sapient, caring and compassionate entity, even a human being, would do this. Add in the element of gods creation and you have a very powerful rationale, but it is not absolutely necessary. if we found a primitive species on another planet surely we would do our best to evolve it and ensure its survival growth and prosperity.  If not, then it just demonstrates our own immaturity and lack of readiness to  care for others.
I dont know god's intent or motivation, although i know what is expressed in many religious forms and certainly this is the motivation attributed to the christian god. It makes sense to me. The whole metaphorical/analagous explanation of god as a father, and humans as, first infants, and then older children is, I think, both excellent and accurate.

Personally i have found god to be compassionate caring and loving. He also manifests as a mentor and teacher. The closest parallel i have for god in my life is my physical father (and my mother) All of them stuck around long enough to get the job done because they cared, loved me, and  formed a self aware conscious commitment to love me and care for me.

[Karlis]

shadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Why do that though? If god wanted a  family why not just make one? Why make a middle step?

My guess is that "moral character" can not be created within sentient beings who are created with the ability to choose their own actions. In my opinion Character has to be developed through growth and experience; or else these beings would be robot-like beings with pre-programmed behaviour. Would you (or God) want such a pre-programmed family?

This is only my guess at an answer to your question, Shadowhive. Scriptures do not go into these details.

[shadowhive]

Mr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Ive watched every episode of startrek and its derivatives several times. As a kid it was one tv programme i was alowed to stay up and watch because my dad watched it. I never thought their non interventionist policy was either right or workable It seemed to me like a philosophy dreamed up by some leftwing hollywood writer who believed that humans had no right to try and help or improve the lot of others in the universe.  MAybe it had a deeper underpinings as in an anti colonial philosophy  but it stilll didnt work for me.

Any way I can see your pov but I am not sure I agree with it. Any space faring race has obviously survived its infancy and troubled teenage years,  and managed to combine impressive technology with that survival Something humans are not yet guaranteed of. Surely such a race could offer a lot to more primitive peoples in many facets of understanding.

I'm not saying it coudn't offer something and I'm certainly not saying we shou;dn't help other peoples. What I am saying is we have to be very, very careful about how we go about it. Something that could improve our lives, might not necessarily improve the lives of another race. For instance, we might encounter a race with increased sensititvity to certain wavelengths, in which case our very technology would be unintentionally) harmful to them. That's just one example and there'd be many, many others.

So I think we have to be very careful about how we go about such 'help' because while we think we could be helping, we could end up doing the opposite. Any race that has achieved such advances would also be aware that such intervention has to be done with great care.

Quote

Humans have always had religions, from neandertal  and cromagnon times.  While there isn't any real evidence of it, It is possible that advanced spacefaring races might pass on forms of religion they knew would promote a species ultimate survival. I like spock's world view, and empathise with the vulcans. As our technology grows, primitive emotional responses are not just inappropriate they can be deadly to both individuals and to our species.

I'm not surprised you empathise with the vulcans, due to your dim view of emotions.

Again, though great care must be taken. To use a Star Trek example to make my point. Imagine the Vulcans went to the Klingons and tried to pass on their 'religion'. How do you think the Klingons would react to that?

Quote

A bit of a side bar i guess. but then i see god as a powerful alien entity with a long term commitment to, and relationship with, the human race. PArt of its purpose in its dealings with us is the uplift of humanity to a saner more rational species.

Well if such a thing is true, I must say it's done a terrible job of it.

Quote

In any contact one civilization will dominatem as was found during the european expansion on earth  Beliefs adapt to  the level of civilization, and especially technology of a species.  Indigenous and aboriginal belieds simply became unworkable when confronted with european technology knolwedge and power.  If earth is contacted by a space faring race, our own beliefs will be altered. If we are the space faring race, our beliefs will alter those of the indigenous inhabitants. It is historically inevitable. A belif is a construct based on knowledge understanding and ones place in the surrounding environment

Find yourself facing new (more advanced) extensive knowledge and technology, and not just your understanding of your place in the universe, but your associated spiritual and religious beliefs,  based on that understanding, will be altered without anyone having to try and convert you.

Such altering is rather dangerous. There's a right way of going about it and there's a wrong way of goig about it. History has proven that we seem to prefer doing it the 'wrong' way, which ooften results in lose of life. I'd rather that not happen again.

Quote

In the end, most humans in a modern technological society are far better  off, by all physical parameters, than those in a hunter gatherer one. Not as happy, perhaps, but that is another issue.

I suspect humans need to evolve/ create a new spiritual dimension which is a better fit to our current knowledge bases and technology, and enables us to be happy because we can once again have an understanding of our place and purpose in life.

I agree in that sesne we are better off.

Do I think that needs to happen though? To an extent. Most moden religions do need to evolve, because they are rapidly becoming outdated and stuck in the past. But I honestly think we'd be better off just shaking them off altogether. Maybe something new would be better, but I dunno.

Quote

One of the biggest causes of human unhappiness in the present world is our disassociation from so many things, especially from society, neighbours,  and community; but also from our  sense of self and true identity. Past humans had all these things, and despite very harsh physical conditions (by our standards) were far happier in their lives.

And the only way of solving those problems is a common religion?

[shadowhive]

Karlis, on 02 September 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

My guess is that "moral character" can not be created within sentient beings who are created with the ability to choose their own actions. In my opinion Character has to be developed through growth and experience; or else these beings would be robot-like beings with pre-programmed behaviour. Would you (or God) want such a pre-programmed family?

This is only my guess at an answer to your question, Shadowhive. Scriptures do not go into these details.

That would be understandable. However the big problem I have with that, is what christians claim happens after death. Either a: most of us get sent to a spiritual death or b: people get 'cleansed' of their negative sides. So if the point is that growth and experience, and god wants us to have it, why erase it at the first oppportunity?

[Karlis]

shadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

That would be understandable. However the big problem I have with that, is what christians claim happens after death. Either a: most of us get sent to a spiritual death or b: people get 'cleansed' of their negative sides. So if the point is that growth and experience, and god wants us to have it, why erase it at the first oppportunity?

Neither of the choices you present here are actual teachings from Scripture.That said, most mainline Christian denomination do teach variations of what you post.