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Robert Anton Wilson on the federal reserve


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#16    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

It does in that unless gold is the actual currency it can be debased just as it always has been in history.
Gold vs Fiat is yesterdays argument - neither solve the economic crisis we are in. RAW dissects the causes of our crisis and proposes an entirely new direction - the RICH economy. Trying to retreat into the dubious certainties of history is a recipe for disaster.

Br Cornelius
LOL the US fiat currency has lost over 95% of its value since the advent of the Federal Reserve system and its magic printing press.   A gold standard would stabilize the value of money as it did for over a hundred years.


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#17    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

Tilt at that old windmill all you like - its dead already.
As usual you misunderstand the purpose of money and you confuse me with a FED fanboy :no:

I can point you to a 15 page thread where your assertions were roundly routed and save us all the trouble of repeating the discussion.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 July 2013 - 04:38 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#18    Br Cornelius

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:05 PM

A fascinating article which touches on the many inadequacies of our current economic system;

Quote

The money game ... We are all forced to play it, whether we like it or not. A few leap across the Monopoly board with great gusto, building or toppling companies, gobbling up futures on resources and minerals, speculating on currencies. Some market new cultural products -- images, memes, books, lines of software code, musical jingles -- as their gambits and dice throws in the global casino. Others, dealt a worse hand, play a more brutal version of the game in the back alleys of third world cities, begging for baksheesh, selling their sex for a meager sum, sending their children to work in factories or collect bits of nickel and aluminum from toxic trash heaps. Simply by virtue of being born into this single global system, this omni-oppressive world order, we are all conscripted into a relentless contest, a ceaseless tumult.

http://www.realitysa...ble_alternative

The future is bleak if we allow it to be.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#19    Gummug

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:41 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Been an enemy of the Fed/Central bank system doesn't automatically make you a fan of the Gold Standard.


Br Cornelius
I realize you're not a fan of the gold standard, but I'd think it would beat what we've got hands down. At least, in the "wild west" days, when the money was redeemable in gold, and many-if not all- of the coins were gold or silver (at least the higher denomination ones anyway, the mil was copper I'm guessing) it seemed to work fine. The problem with a gold or silver-backed currency nowadays is there might not be enough gold and silver in the world to back the amount of money in circulation. Not unless you placed gold and silver at a ridiculously high price per ounce. Anyway, I'm more or less thinking out loud, I don't pretend to be an economist. This would be an interesting area of study though.

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#20    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:49 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Tilt at that old windmill all you like - its dead already.
As usual you misunderstand the purpose of money and you confuse me with a FED fanboy :no:

I can point you to a 15 page thread where your assertions were roundly routed and save us all the trouble of repeating the discussion.

Br Cornelius
Oh please do.  Your imagination is running wild now.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#21    Yamato

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:52 PM

View PostGummug, on 23 July 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

I realize you're not a fan of the gold standard, but I'd think it would beat what we've got hands down. At least, in the "wild west" days, when the money was redeemable in gold, and many-if not all- of the coins were gold or silver (at least the higher denomination ones anyway, the mil was copper I'm guessing) it seemed to work fine. The problem with a gold or silver-backed currency nowadays is there might not be enough gold and silver in the world to back the amount of money in circulation. Not unless you placed gold and silver at a ridiculously high price per ounce. Anyway, I'm more or less thinking out loud, I don't pretend to be an economist. This would be an interesting area of study though.
It's a lousy way to show how against the Fed one allegedly is to spend as much time and wordcount denying and defiling a proven alternative like Corn does.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#22    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 04:04 AM

I love RAW. Such a shame when he died. No real comment on the topic, just love RAW.

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#23    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:43 AM

View PostGummug, on 23 July 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

I realize you're not a fan of the gold standard, but I'd think it would beat what we've got hands down. At least, in the "wild west" days, when the money was redeemable in gold, and many-if not all- of the coins were gold or silver (at least the higher denomination ones anyway, the mil was copper I'm guessing) it seemed to work fine. The problem with a gold or silver-backed currency nowadays is there might not be enough gold and silver in the world to back the amount of money in circulation. Not unless you placed gold and silver at a ridiculously high price per ounce. Anyway, I'm more or less thinking out loud, I don't pretend to be an economist. This would be an interesting area of study though.
You have pointed out one of the myriad flaws. However the more fundamental flaws are what it does to the economy in that it causes much more serious boom and bust cycles. There is a huge body of research on why the Gold standard is inadequate for a modern money supply.

Yamoto's hatred of the Fed blinds him to the possibility that there are other alternative than Gold. RAW was not so naive.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#24    Yamato

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

You have pointed out one of the myriad flaws. However the more fundamental flaws are what it does to the economy in that it causes much more serious boom and bust cycles. There is a huge body of research on why the Gold standard is inadequate for a modern money supply.

Yamoto's hatred of the Fed blinds him to the possibility that there are other alternative than Gold. RAW was not so naive.

Br Cornelius
My hatred for the Fed doesn't lead me to believe that there aren't alternatives to a gold standard.  If you were more honest, and had more respectful spelling, that 15 page discussion you referred to but won't dare revisit would highlight alternatives I identified there.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#25    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:58 AM

View PostYamato, on 24 July 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

My hatred for the Fed doesn't lead me to believe that there aren't alternatives to a gold standard.  If you were more honest, and had more respectful spelling, that 15 page discussion you referred to but won't dare revisit would highlight alternatives I identified there.
You spent 15 pages defending a gold standard against every comer. You basically spent 15 pages repeating yourself.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#26    Yamato

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 08:40 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 July 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

You spent 15 pages defending a gold standard against every comer. You basically spent 15 pages repeating yourself.

Br Cornelius
Source, please.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#27    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:10 AM

http://www.unexplain...pic=234679&st=0

Find me where in that you advocate anything other than a gold standard.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#28    Yamato

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:30 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 July 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:


http://www.unexplain...pic=234679&st=0

Find me where in that you advocate anything other than a gold standard.

Br Cornelius
Okay will do.  This isn't the only discussion I've had about money, money and monetary policy either, nor the only one I've had with you.   Plugging such a lie about me that I don't think there are other possibilities was pathetic.    But since you're the one that went there, first find where my assertions ended up "roundly routed" in those 15 pages because it seems the one that left the scene was you, not me.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#29    Br Cornelius

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:39 AM

View PostYamato, on 24 July 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Okay will do.  This isn't the only discussion I've had about money, money and monetary policy either, nor the only one I've had with you.   Plugging such a lie about me that I don't think there are other possibilities was pathetic. But since you're the one that went there, first find where my assertions ended up "roundly routed" in those 15 pages because it seems the one that left the scene was you, not me.
i read the whole thread again. All you did was repeat that gold was invariable and so was immune to the ills of the FED. Gold had never caused any economic problems in the past and had never failed as a currency.  15 pages of the same statement against many very reasonable and well informed counter positions. Not very edifying.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#30    Yamato

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 July 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

i read the whole thread again. All you did was repeat that gold was invariable and so was immune to the ills of the FED. Gold had never caused any economic problems in the past and had never failed as a currency.  15 pages of the same statement against many very reasonable and well informed counter positions. Not very edifying.

Br Cornelius
Gold is immune to the ills of the Fed for a very simple reason, because you can't print infinite amounts of it.  There's a very finite limited supply of it, and it's extremely difficult to produce.  That is a desirable quality.  The other one is that it doesn't burn in fire.  It doesn't oxidize in air, it doesn't deteriorate from friction and being handled, it can't be stained, written on, it isn't vulnerable to the dirt and oils transferred from human skin.  It doesn't get put into a drawer and eaten by termites like a poor Asian lady's life savings recently were when she stored her paper in a shoebox in her house.  There are many attributes that make precious metals a very attractive basis for money.   You put up an OP about Federal Reserve Notes and then you troll the discussion to gold again when RAW didn't say a word about it.  We can agree on fiat currency.  But if you can't understand the differences between paper and metal, I don't know what the problem is.

And let's explore those 15 pages a little bit better than that.   I see a lot of different questions on that thread I asked you that you never answered.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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