332 replies to this topic

[JGirl]

SSilhouette, on 12 November 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

Very good point araxia.  In fact, a great book to read about just that topic is The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis.  It is a story of a demon "uncle Screwtape" writing letters back and forth to his nephew/protege "Wormwood" about the subtleties of snagging the souls of christians without their even being aware of it.  A high premium is placed on coaxing the targets into repetitive habits [where they don't think] and in feeling superior to others via their christianity, and a host of other traps of the spirit.

A must-read for would-be exorcists in the clergy.

i have read this book, and i would recommend it - an excellent fiction story.
fiction story.
fiction.

[Cybele]

OrdinaryClay, on 20 October 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

Omniscience does not logically contradict free will. Knowing something will happen is not the same as forcing it to happen. The difference is clear. A barometer anticipates the weather, but does not create it. God knows unfailingly what will happen, but we still have the free will to make our choices in life. God cannot force a free will agent to do something. That is a logical contradiction.

Knowing (rather than making a prediction or guess) that something will happen in advance means that there is only one true, predetermined outcome in this universe; and therefore the idea of choice leading to anything other than this eventuality is an illusion. God forcing something to happen is not the same thing as it being predetermined. Only the latter would have to be true for any being to have certain knowledge of our future. If our actions are not pre-determined, i.e.-we have true free will, God would know only an array of possibilities that collapse into one at the moment of our action--i.e.-he would not be omniscient.

I believe demons are archetypes and the anthropomorphization of our own negative emotions and societal "sins"--nothing more.

[OrdinaryClay]

Cybele, on 12 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Knowing (rather than making a prediction or guess) that something will happen in advance means that there is only one true, predetermined outcome in this universe; and therefore the idea of choice leading to anything other than this eventuality is an illusion. God forcing something to happen is not the same thing as it being predetermined. Only the latter would have to be true for any being to have certain knowledge of our future. If our actions are not pre-determined, i.e.-we have true free will, God would know only an array of possibilities that collapse into one at the moment of our action--i.e.-he would not be omniscient.

God has predetermined in the sense that he has establish the circumstances in which He knows we will make the choices we make. God knows all possible choices we would have made given all the possible circumstances. In philosophy this is called holding counter factual knowledge. Predetermination does not eliminate free will. A choice is separate from the circumstances leading to that choice. We could make another choice given the circumstances we find ourselves in. God simply knows before hand that we will not.

Quote

I believe demons are archetypes and the anthropomorphization of our own negative emotions and societal "sins"--nothing more.

I hear this all the time. Particularly among the LHP crowd. The term archetype in this context is ill and vaguely defined. It sounds weighty and profound but it really carries no meaning. Demons are either distinct spiritual entities or they are not. There is no middle ground.

Edited by OrdinaryClay, 13 November 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[Arbitran]

OrdinaryClay, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

God has predetermined in the sense that he has establish the circumstances in which He knows we will make the choices we make. God knows all possible choices we would have made given all the possible circumstances. In philosophy this is called holding counter factual knowledge. Predetermination does not eliminate free will. A choice is separate from the circumstances leading to that choice. We could make another choice given the circumstances we find ourselves in. God simply knows before hand that we will not.

So... you're basically confirming what Cybele just said... God isn't truly omniscient unless he knows everything—that includes the choices we will make: ergo, the choices we make are preset, in some way or another, since God is apparently capable of knowing them in advance.

OrdinaryClay, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I hear this all the time. Particularly among the LHP crowd. The term archetype in this context is ill and vaguely defined. It sounds weighty and profound but it really carries no meaning. Demons are either distinct spiritual entities or they are not. There is no middle ground.

I disagree with your false dichotomy, but I will agree with your actual dichotomy: either demons are distinct spiritual entities, or they are not. I posit they are not. "Spiritual entities", I propose, do not exist in the first place.

PS ~ You accuse the word "archetype" of being "ill and vaguely defined"... and "spiritual entity" isn't?

[SSilhouette]

Quote

i have read this book, and i would recommend it - an excellent fiction story.
fiction story.
fiction.

JGirl, that's exactly the mantra Screwtape would recommend to Wormwood to instill in one of his targets that was on the verge of discovering their presence.

Ironic.  I wonder then what it was you found "excellent" about The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?  Because as anyone knows, the best fiction stories are those that imitate life the closest.  Gives them that believable-edge and "possibility" that complete farce doesn't come near.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what part of that book rang true for you to make you classify it as "excellent"?

With the hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, of ghost reports, even if a small fraction of them only are of some real thing that has awareness but can't be readily seen or heard, we would do well to not dismiss them so flippantly.  Some people really are living in houses where the furniture and dishes are moving about, sometimes violently.  Some even get pushed down the stairs and become injured from the unseen.  It seems that if this is happening, even in a small percentage of the reports, we should look at it.

Like every generation before us, we like to fancy ourselves the epitome of civilization and completion of discovery.  Yet we only know a thumbnail of what their is to know.  If you subscribe, as Screwtape would have you do, to the belief that the physical world is all there is then this thread is meaningless to you.  [Yet one would wonder why you're posting on a website like this?].  But it is possible that we are here in the physical world to test our spiritual resolve.  Mystics across cultures, cut off from each other have over and over through time come to the same conclusion.  When that type of independent discovery happens, you have to sit up and take notice.  Patterns beg for attention.

Edited by SSilhouette, 13 November 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[JGirl]

SSilhouette, on 13 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

JGirl, that's exactly the mantra Screwtape would recommend to Wormwood to instill in one of his targets that was on the verge of discovering their presence.

Ironic.  I wonder then what it was you found "excellent" about The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?  Because as anyone knows, the best fiction stories are those that imitate life the closest.  Gives them that believable-edge and "possibility" that complete farce doesn't come near.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what part of that book rang true for you to make you classify it as "excellent"?

With the hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, of ghost reports, even if a small fraction of them only are of some real thing that has awareness but can't be readily seen or heard, we would do well to not dismiss them so flippantly.  Some people really are living in houses where the furniture and dishes are moving about, sometimes violently.  Some even get pushed down the stairs and become injured from the unseen.  It seems that if this is happening, even in a small percentage of the reports, we should look at it.

Like every generation before us, we like to fancy ourselves the epitome of civilization and completion of discovery.  Yet we only know a thumbnail of what their is to know.  If you subscribe, as Screwtape would have you do, to the belief that the physical world is all there is then this thread is meaningless to you.  [Yet one would wonder why you're posting on a website like this?].  But it is possible that we are here in the physical world to test our spiritual resolve.  Mystics across cultures, cut off from each other have over and over through time come to the same conclusion.  When that type of independent discovery happens, you have to sit up and take notice.  Patterns beg for attention.

i found that novel to be an excellent parable just as i do with all of lewis' novels. obviously you are surprised that i am a spiritual person lol
perhaps if you were interested you might wait and see where a person stands on issues before you make assumptions hm?

Edited by JGirl, 13 November 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[SpiritWriter]

SSilhouette, on 13 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

JGirl, that's exactly the mantra Screwtape would recommend to Wormwood to instill in one of his targets that was on the verge of discovering their presence.

Ironic.  I wonder then what it was you found "excellent" about The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis?  Because as anyone knows, the best fiction stories are those that imitate life the closest.  Gives them that believable-edge and "possibility" that complete farce doesn't come near.

So I guess what I'm asking is, what part of that book rang true for you to make you classify it as "excellent"?

With the hundreds of thousands, millions perhaps, of ghost reports, even if a small fraction of them only are of some real thing that has awareness but can't be readily seen or heard, we would do well to not dismiss them so flippantly.  Some people really are living in houses where the furniture and dishes are moving about, sometimes violently.  Some even get pushed down the stairs and become injured from the unseen.  It seems that if this is happening, even in a small percentage of the reports, we should look at it.

Like every generation before us, we like to fancy ourselves the epitome of civilization and completion of discovery.  Yet we only know a thumbnail of what their is to know.  If you subscribe, as Screwtape would have you do, to the belief that the physical world is all there is then this thread is meaningless to you.  [Yet one would wonder why you're posting on a website like this?].  But it is possible that we are here in the physical world to test our spiritual resolve.  Mystics across cultures, cut off from each other have over and over through time come to the same conclusion.  When that type of independent discovery happens, you have to sit up and take notice.  Patterns beg for attention.

Amen

[OrdinaryClay]

Arbitran, on 13 November 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

So... you're basically confirming what Cybele just said... God isn't truly omniscient unless he knows everything—that includes the choices we will make: ergo, the choices we make are preset, in some way or another, since God is apparently capable of knowing them in advance.

No, I'm saying God is omniscient because He possesses middle knowledge which is knowing the choices we would have made, but didn't. See Gods Knowledge

Quote

I disagree with your false dichotomy, but I will agree with your actual dichotomy: either demons are distinct spiritual entities, or they are not. I posit they are not. "Spiritual entities", I propose, do not exist in the first place.

If my dichotomy is false, what is the third option?

Quote

PS ~ You accuse the word "archetype" of being "ill and vaguely defined"... and "spiritual entity" isn't?

I stated in the context she used it it was ill defined. Clearly the word is defined. Yes, spiritual entity is defined. It's a disembodied independent consciousness. You just said you did not believe they were spiritual entities. If you didn't understand what I meant by spiritual entity you would not have been able to deny their existence.

Edited by OrdinaryClay, 14 November 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Arbitran]

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

No, I'm saying God is omniscient because He possesses middle knowledge which is knowing the choices we would have made, but didn't. See Gods Knowledge

How does that disagree with me, exactly? You claim God is omniscient; that, by definition, means that he would have to know everything. Does he or doesn't he? In any case, how would it be even remotely possible for anyone to know whether somebody else knew everything? Hell, how would it be possible for anyone to know if they themselves knew everything? The idea of omniscience strikes me as over-pretentious; a nifty idea, but not very logically-sound.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

If my dichotomy is false, what is the third option?

Your dichotomy is both false and true, in different ways: because demons could absolutely be more than merely either "spiritual entities" or "not spiritual entities", in the sense that they could be archetypical constructs, they could be aliens, they could be glitches in the Matrix, it really doesn't matter: they could be just about anything. However, when looked at in the context of 'are they or are they not spiritual entities', specifically, then yes, that is a proper dichotomy. You were unclear as to the context in your original post, hence the ambiguous nature of its true/false dichotomy status.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

I stated in the context she used it it was ill defined. Clearly the word is defined. Yes, spiritual entity is defined. It's a disembodied independent consciousness.

You give that definition of 'spiritual entity'. I could go out onto the street and receive a dozen alternate definitions in a heartbeat. The nature of "spiritual", I find, has historically been a very nebulous and ambiguous term.

Pray tell, would a disembodied, virtual, artificial consciousness qualify as being "spiritual"? In any case, you haven't done so much as to demonstrate that it's possible for an "independent disembodied consciousness" to exist in the first place. It's rather a moot point; if we're going to try and work out what demons are, can we not limit our search to things which exist? Unless you'd like to include glitches in the Matrix, magic, and fairies in the list of possibilities as well, eh?

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

You just said you did not believe they were spiritual entities. If you didn't understand what I meant by spiritual entity you would not have been able to deny their existence.

I know what you meant; just because I understand what you meant doesn't make the concept you're attempting to convey any less vacuous and ill-defined.

(Incidentally, I'd prefer if your response to this didn't include the claim that "I just defined it, so it isn't ill-defined". There is a difference between undefined and ill-defined, you know.)

[OrdinaryClay]

Arbitran, on 14 November 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

How does that disagree with me, exactly?

It's the opposite of what you claimed.

Quote

You claim God is omniscient; that, by definition, means that he would have to know everything. Does he or doesn't he?

Yes, as was explained.

Quote

In any case, how would it be even remotely possible for anyone to know whether somebody else knew everything?

Based on the evidence of God's characteristics and philosophical reasoning.

Quote

Hell, how would it be possible for anyone to know if they themselves knew everything?

Not relevant.

Quote

The idea of omniscience strikes me as over-pretentious; a nifty idea

Whether you or I are pretentious has nothing to do with God's characteristics.

Quote

, but not very logically-sound.

It's logically sound if you understand logic.

Quote

Your dichotomy is both false and true, in different ways

This is not possible for a false dichotomy.

Quote

because demons could absolutely be more than merely either "spiritual entities" or "not spiritual entities",

It's not logically possible to be anything other than X or not X. They are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

Quote

in the sense that they could be archetypical constructs,

This is gobbledygook

[OrdinaryClay]

Arbitran, on 14 November 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

they could be aliens, they could be glitches in the Matrix,

Then they would not be spiritual entities.

Quote

it really doesn't matter: they could be just about anything.

Not accoding to the evidence.

Quote

However, when looked at in the context of 'are they or are they not spiritual entities', specifically, then yes, that is a proper dichotomy. You were unclear as to the context in your original post, hence the ambiguous nature of its true/false dichotomy status.

The context was her post.

Quote

You give that definition of 'spiritual entity'. I could go out onto the street and receive a dozen alternate definitions in a heartbeat. The nature of "spiritual", I find, has historically been a very nebulous and ambiguous term.

Your search has been very shallow. All cultures through out history believe in spirits and they are always disembodied consciousnesses.

Quote

Pray tell, would a disembodied, virtual, artificial consciousness qualify as being "spiritual"?

They don't exist.

Quote

In any case, you haven't done so much as to demonstrate that it's possible for an "independent disembodied consciousness" to exist in the first place.

Not relevant.

Quote

It's rather a moot point; if we're going to try and work out what demons are, can we not limit our search to things which exist?

The evidence is in favor of demons existing.

[Lava_Lady]

Vivica, on 27 June 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

what is there to know about demons? like what r there weaknesses? can they be trusted? who created them? just everything from the beginning to now please tell me im very curious...

I think there are a lot of answers to your questions, different religions have their own versions of demons and even the same religions from different cultures have their own versions.  

You might want to start by reading up on Zoroastrianism.  A lot of the modern day Christian beliefs of angels and devils come from the Zoroastrians.

A little research in this area might be a good start.

[Arbitran]

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

It's the opposite of what you claimed.

Not the way I read it. Here's a dichotomy for you: either God knows everything, and is therefore omniscient, or he does not, and is not omniscient. It's quite simple.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Based on the evidence of God's characteristics and philosophical reasoning.

Both of which are utterly meaningless in actual evidence-based discussions; which this has now become.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Not relevant.

Perhaps not, but nonetheless a question which wouldn't hurt your case to answer, hmm?

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Whether you or I are pretentious has nothing to do with God's characteristics.

Correct; though that doesn't much address what I was saying.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

It's logically sound if you understand logic.

Only one who didn't understand logic, I'm afraid, would be so naive as to claim such a thing, without so much as refuting the argument given...

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

This is not possible for a false dichotomy.

Of course it is; in one context it is hopelessly false, in another it is acceptable. You seem to have a penchant for disagreeing with me: less of one for actually refuting what I say, for sure...

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

It's not logically possible to be anything other than X or not X. They are mutually exclusive and exhaustive.

Hence the distinction in context which I made very clear: in the context which assumes the relevance of only X and not X, they are, of course, exclusive, as you say.

In another context however, which is not out of the question, given the unstated and, as I've said, ambiguous context of the basal inquiry, the existence of X, not X, Y, not Y, Z, not Z, etc., etc., ad infinitum could be presumed. It is not unreasonable to include such; given that, in the context (not uncalled-for) of the very nature of the question of the existence of demons, any and every possible solution to the problem could be conceivably put forward. Narrowing down those possibilities is a foremost concern to the inquiry itself; and given your lack of stated significance, I see little reason to predetermine "spiritual entities" as being any more likely an answer than magical flatworms from Mars; it's a simple X versus Y scenario.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

This is gobbledygook

Perhaps... or it could be your misinterpretation and/or disingenuous ignorance or general failure to grasp the principle of the subject matter. It's the same old misunderstanding of logic which your displayed before...

[Arbitran]

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Then they would not be spiritual entities.

No, they would (presumably) not be (though there is room for debate here, I will let your momentary slip pass for now). They would be Y and Z as opposed to your aforementioned X; they would of course both qualify as not X, just as X would qualify as not Y and not Z, etc., etc. This is not relevant.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Not accoding to the evidence.

The "evidence" which you speak so fondly of, yet neglect at every turn to provide... hmm...

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

The context was her post.

The context, as you wrote it, was ambiguous and undefined; leaving itself open to the fallacies which I noted.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Your search has been very shallow. All cultures through out history believe in spirits and they are always disembodied consciousnesses.

Oh, and I take it you've research has been so thorough as to encompass all cultures throughout history? Hmm... Now, who was it you were claiming possessed omniscience again? Your god, or you?

In any case, your claim is easily refutable. Not only are the descriptions of "spirits" in varied cultures no less diverse than the cultures themselves, but neither has my search been shallow; otherwise I would likely be unaware of the fact which I have just stated, no?

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

They don't exist.

Hmm... you speak with great surety... I'll let that fallacy pass for now...

Presuming (without cognizant pretense) that artificial consciousnesses do not exist, as you claim, if they were to exist at some past or future time, would they or would they not qualify as "spiritual" in nature. (I admit I do not appreciate your utter ignorance of my initial question...)

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Not relevant.

Quite relevant, actually. If you can claim the existence of "independent disembodied consciousness" without substantiation, then it is perfectly reasonable to claim the existence of artificial consciousnesses, fairies, glitches in the Matrix, etc., etc., ad infinitum; this being the essential flaw in your reasoning which has been evident, and which I have thusly noted, in your posts.

OrdinaryClay, on 14 November 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

The evidence is in favor of demons existing.

You have provided no such evidence; nor are any of us here aware of any such evidence. As it stands: your claim is bald and vacuous.

[Arbitran]

Also, OrdinaryClay, I would request that you limit your tireless retorts to responding to paragraphs or concepts, rather than the tedious sentence-by-sentence method you appear to have presently adopted. It's much simpler to read and to respond to, and it's much tidier (it was quite noticeable that you used two full posts to respond to a single of mine; the task would have been far simpler had you restricted yourself to responding to larger portions of text).

Edited by Arbitran, 14 November 2012 - 10:34 AM.