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#61    Jor-el

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:14 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 27 December 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Have you actually read the Bible? God most definitely intervenes.

But he does so for his own purposes, not for our own. I've always found this to be true, in all the accounts I've read and experienced. I don't think there is a single account of divine intervention where he did so for the sake of a single person, although I don't discount it. Yet even when that intervention seems like it is for the sake of a single person we ususally find out much later how that event changed a multitude of lives.

There is this modern belief that we should sieze the promises of God by faith and hold him to them, but when this is twisted into making God our own personal genie, then we have problems.

Edited by Jor-el, 27 December 2012 - 12:15 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#62    Sean93

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:16 PM

View PostJor-el, on 27 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

I was once like you, the circumststances were different but the thoughts I had are basically along the same line as yours... I found out I was quite wrong. It was the anger talking, the feeling of abandonment...

I would share with you something that helped a little in changing my outlook.

Posted Image


I know it may sound corny but this poem helped me to see that even when I thought I succeeded in doing things alone, behind the scenes I was being helped, even when I didn't know it.

Bro, that poem has been hanging up in my granddad's house for years, since  was a kid and as nice as it sounds, I don't for a second take hope from it because it's just a poem, words that someone pieced together to make others feel better and that's good but that kind of stuff, poems ans uplifting quotes don't cut it for me.

Like I said above, sometime I find myself pondering a creator, but not your idea of it nor any other religions idea of it; I despise religion, to me it's like adults playing a game: Eat this, say this, don't do this on that day etc. I'll find my own way in life rather than listen to some man talk about his god and then another talk about there's; with all of them claiming how great each one is and how they are the right one..it all comes down to faith otherwise there would be only one religion in this world if god were real, I can't see the logic behind a large than existence creator telling a few sheep herders or monks on a mountain their word an then expecting it to pass unscathed though the entire planet...that's a very lazy and stupid thing for any 'god' to do and a lot of trust in a species that has, time and time again proved itself to be malevolent, vile, untrustworthy and selfish. Stop hiding and show yourself god, whatever you are.

Religion depresses me to the core.

Edited by Sean93, 27 December 2012 - 12:20 PM.

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#63    Toadie

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

Wake up people God doesn't make people do evil acts, some people are just screw in the head simple as that. God is not going to magically fix your woes time to take some responsibility for your life


#64    Jor-el

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostSean93, on 27 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Bro, that poem has been hanging up in my granddad's house for years, since  was a kid and as nice as it sounds, I don't for a second take hope from it because it's just a poem, words that someone pieced together to make others feel better and that's good but that kind of stuff, poems ans uplifting quotes don't cut it for me.

Like I said above, sometime I find myself pondering a creator, but not your idea of it nor any other religions idea of it; I despise religion, to me it's like adults playing a game: Eat this, say this, don't do this on that day etc. I'll find my own way in life rather than listen to some man talk about his god and then another talk about there's; with all of them claiming how great each one is and how they are the right one..it all comes down to faith otherwise there would be only one religion in this world if god were real, I can't see the logic behind a large than existence creator telling a few sheep herders or monks on a mountain their word an then expecting it to pass unscathed though the entire planet...that's a very lazy and stupid thing for any 'god' to do and a lot of trust in a species that has, time and time again proved itself to be malevolent, vile, untrustworthy and selfish. Stop hiding and show yourself god, whatever you are.

Religion depresses me to the core.

Yeah, Pretty much what I used to say, and still do, religion depresses me to the core too.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#65    GreenmansGod

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

I know people who are mess up, I mean really messed up.  They can't move, they are locked in their bodies.  The lucky ones can talk. What I can't figure out how the religious ones seem to blame themselves for it. I always think it is just bad luck, because they didn't do anything to deserve this.  Progressive Multiple Sclerosis can be horrible, but it is what it is, a disease and nobodies fault. Our bodies are like lap tops, sometimes they brake, If you can fix it, great, if not which is most the time, oh well, that's the way it goes.    Things happen, good, bad it is life. I don't sweat the details I just learn and move on.

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#66    libstaK

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:01 PM

View PostSean93, on 27 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Bro, that poem has been hanging up in my granddad's house for years, since  was a kid and as nice as it sounds, I don't for a second take hope from it because it's just a poem, words that someone pieced together to make others feel better and that's good but that kind of stuff, poems ans uplifting quotes don't cut it for me.

Like I said above, sometime I find myself pondering a creator, but not your idea of it nor any other religions idea of it; I despise religion, to me it's like adults playing a game: Eat this, say this, don't do this on that day etc. I'll find my own way in life rather than listen to some man talk about his god and then another talk about there's; with all of them claiming how great each one is and how they are the right one..it all comes down to faith otherwise there would be only one religion in this world if god were real, I can't see the logic behind a large than existence creator telling a few sheep herders or monks on a mountain their word an then expecting it to pass unscathed though the entire planet...that's a very lazy and stupid thing for any 'god' to do and a lot of trust in a species that has, time and time again proved itself to be malevolent, vile, untrustworthy and selfish. Stop hiding and show yourself god, whatever you are.

Religion depresses me to the core.
They say the Kingdom of Heaven is within, why are you looking at others when it is what is within you that can make all the difference in your life and the lives of others?

If religion depresses you then aim toward something that inspires you and warms your heart - be the change you want to see in the world :tu:

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#67    redhen

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:32 PM

View PostJGirl, on 27 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

because god doesn't allow or disallow anything that happens here. that's where your problem lies - in thinking someone owes you a life free of strife and pain

No one has tried to address natural evil yet. How do you reconcile that with an omnibenevolent God?


#68    IamsSon

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

View PostSean93, on 27 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Bro, that poem has been hanging up in my granddad's house for years, since  was a kid and as nice as it sounds, I don't for a second take hope from it because it's just a poem, words that someone pieced together to make others feel better and that's good but that kind of stuff, poems ans uplifting quotes don't cut it for me.

Like I said above, sometime I find myself pondering a creator, but not your idea of it nor any other religions idea of it; I despise religion, to me it's like adults playing a game: Eat this, say this, don't do this on that day etc. I'll find my own way in life rather than listen to some man talk about his god and then another talk about there's; with all of them claiming how great each one is and how they are the right one..it all comes down to faith otherwise there would be only one religion in this world if god were real, I can't see the logic behind a large than existence creator telling a few sheep herders or monks on a mountain their word an then expecting it to pass unscathed though the entire planet...that's a very lazy and stupid thing for any 'god' to do and a lot of trust in a species that has, time and time again proved itself to be malevolent, vile, untrustworthy and selfish. Stop hiding and show yourself god, whatever you are.

Religion depresses me to the core.
I think you will find that Christians who actually study the Bible will agree with you much more than you expect.

Quote

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Colossians 2: 16-23

Edited by IamsSon, 27 December 2012 - 02:46 PM.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#69    blind pew

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

View PostJGirl, on 27 December 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

because god doesn't allow or disallow anything that happens here. that's where your problem lies - in thinking someone owes you a life free of strife and pain
Then I ask you, what's the use in worshiping a god that doesn't do ****? You might as well pray to a doorknob.


#70    blind pew

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:48 PM

View PostJor-el, on 27 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

I was once like you, the circumststances were different but the thoughts I had are basically along the same line as yours... I found out I was quite wrong. It was the anger talking, the feeling of abandonment...

I would share with you something that helped a little in changing my outlook.

Posted Image


I know it may sound corny but this poem helped me to see that even when I thought I succeeded in doing things alone, behind the scenes I was being helped, even when I didn't know it.
I used to love this poem until I found it was a bunch of bull*****


#71    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:57 PM

View Postredhen, on 27 December 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

No one has tried to address natural evil yet. How do you reconcile that with an omnibenevolent God?

I consider "god" to be natural evil.  There is no way that thing in the bible is benevolent.

Drunk with blood..
Dangerous cult leaders
Jewish gematria # 1162:
Who is like God
The epitome of evil

#72    IamsSon

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:24 PM

View Postblind pew, on 27 December 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

Then I ask you, what's the use in worshiping a god that doesn't do ****? You might as well pray to a doorknob.
I think it's interesting that some people think the being that created the whole of reality needs to be worshipped or wants my or your worship for worship's sake.  If one reads the Bible one finds that God created beings whose only purpose is to constantly, willingly, happily, worship Him.  I think He created those beings solely for the purpose of getting anyone capable of thinking it through to realize that we are obviously not created for that purpose.  Additionally, if one thinks it through, one would easily come to the realization that a being that overwhelmingly powerful is not our" genie in the bottle" waiting for us to make a wish so he can slavishly grant it.  Prayer is not intended to be a rub of the magic lamp, it's intended to be a way to converse with God.

View PostHavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

I consider "god" to be natural evil.  There is no way that thing in the bible is benevolent.
Can you tell me what you mean by benevolent?

The reason I ask is that even among just us humans there are actions that we take that may well be perceived by others as being malevolent, and yet truly are inteded for good.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#73    Jor-el

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

View Postblind pew, on 27 December 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

I used to love this poem until I found it was a bunch of bull*****

I would disagree with you in regards to it being a bunch of Bull.

What people continually fail to realize, is that God ain't their personal genie.... Many times the way he helps you is NOT the way you want to be helped.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#74    Jor-el

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:44 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 27 December 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

I consider "god" to be natural evil.  There is no way that thing in the bible is benevolent.

Hmm, let me say the following... God is beyond our perception of Good and Evil. What actually is evil, may not always have been considered so, the same can be said for Good, what is Good now may not always have been considered so, and in the future, do you think your perception will be the same as a person living 1000 years from now?

Our perception of Good and Evil fluctuate, they are not static, that is why I say that God is beyond both Good and Evil, in fact it is better and more accurate to say that both are subordinate to God, not the other way around.

That is why it is essentially useless to condemn God.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#75    Rlyeh

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

View PostJor-el, on 27 December 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Hmm, let me say the following... God is beyond our perception of Good and Evil. What actually is evil, may not always have been considered so, the same can be said for Good, what is Good now may not always have been considered so, and in the future, do you think your perception will be the same as a person living 1000 years from now?

Our perception of Good and Evil fluctuate, they are not static, that is why I say that God is beyond both Good and Evil, in fact it is better and more accurate to say that both are subordinate to God, not the other way around.

That is why it is essentially useless to condemn God.
By that reasoning praising God is also worthless.





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