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Doggerland


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#751    Abramelin

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:24 PM

Some terribly boring sites about things connected with Doggerland, but I just post it so you all know scientists are not sitting around doing nothing concerning this topic.

Chapter 2
An Archaeological Resource Assessment and Research
Agenda for the Palaeolithic in the East Midlands (part of
Western Doggerland
).

http://www.le.ac.uk/...emidpal_000.pdf

==


CHAPTER NINE
A RADIOCARBON DATABASE FOR THE
MESOLITHIC AND EARLY NEOLITHIC IN
NORTHWEST EUROPE


Abstract
We have collated an extensive regional radiocarbon database for the
Mesolithic and Early Neolithic in Northwest Europe in the age range 10,000 to
4000 yrs 14C-BP (i.e. 11.7 ka calBP to 5000 calBP). The database contains more
than 4100 individual 14C-ages (each defined by its specific laboratory code), and
which are derived from c. 1000 different archaeological sites. The database is fully
(95%) georeferenced and covers the countries Belgium, Denmark, England/Wales,
Ireland, the Netherlands, and Scotland.


http://biblio.ugent....&fileOId=841758


#752    Abramelin

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:31 PM

And let's not forget about what I posted in the thread about the "Oera Linda Book" a couple of times.

The next is my translation of a part of the epic poem by Willem van Haren, 1741.

(the poem is about the exploits of the mythical founder of Friesland: Friso)



And, with Argentorix, through narrow currents
that lead to the cold sees of the feroceous Scyths
and separate the British Empire of great Europe
(T)Here was an old rumour, that Father Ocean,
tired of going along Thule's coast to the Northern Throne,
to steer icy sees to the coasts of the Samojeds,
ordered a meeting of the Western Rivers.
The Guadalquivir, who sprays the Wall of Seville,
and flows through a fertile land and rich pastures;
The silver Guadiana, carried on Swans's down;
The rich Tagus, carried on a golden wagon,
with a regal gesture, and royal panache;
The Douro, crowned with Rose and Stock Gillyflower,
and keeping a garland of flowers in his hands;
The boasting Garonne in the middle of her bonds;
The Loire, which, though tall of stature,
shares fame the least;
The Seine, which, by adorning itself with laurels
covets the dominion of all Rivers;
And an endless number of lesser watergods;
Called on Triton's horn in front of Amfrites' throne.
There the Ocean made them line up in order,
And, raising his waves a 1000 feet high,
attacked on the land that attached the Albion beach
to wealthy Europe; and, pushing with his hand,
The Mountains from their bases, the Rocks from their footings,
He gave the captured (?) lands to the angry mob [= the rivers]
Each took from this burden a rock or a hill along,
And grinded it to gravel, and spread them to the Sea.
King Ocean travelled swiftly along smooth sands,
From the fizzing waters to the Alocean beaches:
And from that time on Albion became an Empire
Invincible for foreign powers.


Page 411:
http://www.dbnl.org/...04geva01_01.pdf


According to the poem, Argentorix is the son of Coïlus, King of the Brittons. He met Friso on the Isle of Wight, and begged him for help. He shows Friso the way to the Land of the Alans = Frisia.


Location of Thule/Thyle (for this poem that is):

Thule (pronounced /ˈθuːliː/ or ˈθjuːli;[1][2][3] from Greek Θούλη, Thoulē), also spelled Thula, Thila, or Thyïlea, is, in classical European literature and maps, a region in the far north. Though often considered to be an island in antiquity, modern interpretations of what was meant by Thule often identify it as Norway.[2][4] Other interpretations include the Orkney Islands, Shetland Islands, and Scandinavia. In the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, Thule was often identified as Iceland or Greenland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule

The "Alocean beachess":

Above the Cimbrian peninsula there are three other islands which are called the Alociae islands

http://penelope.uchi.../2/10/text.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 November 2011 - 08:41 PM.


#753    JesseCuster

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:17 PM

Having just browsed through this thread in the last day or two, I have to say it's a fascinating topic and a fascinating idea, but it seems to be speculation built upon speculation and drawing some dubious conclusions from alleged linguistic cognates.

Anyway, I thought I'd just mentioned something.  Several times the idea of an ancient Irish legend of a flood has been mentioned as support for a legend based upon Doggerland being flooded.

The flood mentioned in ancient Irish legends is almost certainly a later addition by Christians to make the old legend more acceptable to Christianity.  Characters were added or altered to make them descendants of Noah (what would mention of Noah be doing in ancient Irish legends otherwise?).  This was not uncommon.  The story of Conor Mac Nessa, kind of Ulster during the time of the legends of Cu Chulainn and the Red Branch Knights was altered to insert a story about him becoming so enraged about hearing about the crucifixion of a good man (Jesus) that he died of rage, and St. Patrick was shoehorned into the legend of Oisin and Tir na Nog.  So you can't really use the flood in ancient Irish mythology as evidence of anything other than the myths have been altered deliberately to include elements from other religions/myths.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

#754    Abramelin

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:29 PM

 Archimedes, on 19 November 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Having just browsed through this thread in the last day or two, I have to say it's a fascinating topic and a fascinating idea, but it seems to be speculation built upon speculation and drawing some dubious conclusions from alleged linguistic cognates.

Anyway, I thought I'd just mentioned something.  Several times the idea of an ancient Irish legend of a flood has been mentioned as support for a legend based upon Doggerland being flooded.

The flood mentioned in ancient Irish legends is almost certainly a later addition by Christians to make the old legend more acceptable to Christianity.  Characters were added or altered to make them descendants of Noah (what would mention of Noah be doing in ancient Irish legends otherwise?).  This was not uncommon.  The story of Conor Mac Nessa, kind of Ulster during the time of the legends of Cu Chulainn and the Red Branch Knights was altered to insert a story about him becoming so enraged about hearing about the crucifixion of a good man (Jesus) that he died of rage, and St. Patrick was shoehorned into the legend of Oisin and Tir na Nog.  So you can't really use the flood in ancient Irish mythology as evidence of anything other than the myths have been altered deliberately to include elements from other religions/myths.

Hi Archimedes,

I am very aware of my speculations, and that's all they are.

And about the Irish legends: it was Cormac (UM member) who already adviced me (in this thread and/or in the Oera Linda thread) to better stay away from them for reasons similar to the ones you mentioned.


#755    JesseCuster

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 06:37 PM

Fair enough.  I skimmed through this thread quickly so may have missed it already being mentioned.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

#756    Abramelin

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 09:21 PM

 Archimedes, on 19 November 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

Fair enough.  I skimmed through this thread quickly so may have missed it already being mentioned.

I do hope you noticed I never mentioned aliens, Annunaki, or magic crystals, or any other far-out crap.

I have only played with the available scientific information, and added to that what I could squeeze out of ancient myths.


#757    JesseCuster

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 10:12 PM

Oh sure.

I don't buy it at all myself, but it's a fascinating and not unbelievable hypothesis which is why I was interested enough to actually read through the whole thread.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

#758    Abramelin

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:43 PM

I'd like to add that the part of Willem van Haren's poem that I translated is not proof people in the 18th century knew about 8500 years old Doggerland, it was just their idea how England got separated from the European mainland.

Many thought it was the Cimbrian Flood that caused it, but that one happend just a few centuries BC and sent the Cimbrians from Denmark on the move to the south.

Another thing they thought it happened catastrophically and from where the disaster must have come, is because throughout the ages people in the Netherlands dug up ancient tree trunks all lying in the same direction: roots to the north-west, crowns to the south-east (the socalled "boomstorting" or "falling of trees").

http://www.dbnl.org/...a01_01_0004.php

.

Edited by Abramelin, 20 November 2011 - 12:45 PM.


#759    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 07:56 PM

SUBMERGED FORESTS
by Clement Reid, 1913.

From the "SUMMARY":

In this connexion it might be worth while systematically
to dredge the Dogger Bank, in order to
see whether any implements made by man can be
found there. The alluvial deposits are there so free
from stones that if any at all are found in them they
may probably show human workmanship. The Dogger
Bank may have remained an island long after great
part of the bed of the North Sea had been submerged,
for the Bank now forms a submerged plateau. It
may even have lasted into fairly recent times, the
final destruction of the island being due to the
planing away of the upper part of the soft alluvial
strata through the attacks of the sea and of boring
molluscs
.

http://www.archive.o...gedforest00reid


#760    Abramelin

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 04:27 PM

As I have seen nothing about copyright concerning this book from 1913, and because I learned there are some who have problems downloading from the site I linked to in my former post, I will post the whole chapter about the Dogger Bank here.

It gives an excellent impression of the geology, flora and fauna of Doggerland.

===========

CHAPTER IV
THE DOGGER BANK

For the last 50 years it has been known to geologists
that the bed of the North Sea yields numerous
bones of large land animals, belonging in great part
to extinct species. These were first obtained by
oyster-dredgers, and later by trawlers. Fortunately
a good collection of them was secured by the British
Museum, wliere it has been carefully studied by
William Davies, The bones came from two localities.
One of them, close to the Norfolk coast off Happisburgh,
yielded mainly teeth of Elephas meridionalis,
and its fossils were evidently derived from the Pliocene
Cromer Forest bed, which in that neighbourhood is
rapidly being destroyed by the sea. This need not
now detain us.

The other locality is far more extraordinary. In
the middle of the North Sea lies the extensive shoal
known as the Dogger Bank, about 60 or 70 miles
from the nearest land. This shoal forms a wide
irregular plateau having an area nearly as big as
Denmark. Over it for the most part the sea has
a depth of only 50 or 60 feet; all round its edge
it slopes somewhat abruptly into deeper water, about
150 feet in the south, east, and west, but much deeper
on the north. This peculiar bank has been explained
as an eastward submerged continuation of the Oolite
escarpment of Yorkshire ; or, alternatively, as a mere
shoal accumulated through the -effects of some tidal
eddy ; but neither of these explanations will hold, for
Oolitic rocks do not occur there, and the bank has a
core quite unlike the sand of the North Sea.

When trawlers first visited the Dogger Bank its
surface seems to have been strewn with large bones
of land animals and loose masses of peat, known to
the fishermen as "moorlog," and there were also many
erratic blocks in the neighbourhood. As all this
refuse did much damage to the trawls, and bruised
the fish, the erratics and bones were thrown into
deeper water, and the large cakes of moorlog were
broken in pieces. A few of the erratics and some of
the bones were however brought to Yarmouth as
curiosities. Now the whole surface of the Dogger
Bank has been gone over again and again by the
trawlers, and very few of the fossil bones are found;
unfortunately no record seems to iiave been kept as
to the exact place where these bones were trawled.

The species found were :

Ursus (bear)
Canis lupus (wolf)
Hyaena spelaea (hyaena)
Cervus megaceros (Irish elk)
Cervus megaceros (Irish elk) rhinoceros)
,, tarandus (reindeer)
,, elaphus (red-deer)
,, a fourth species
Bos primigenius (wild ox)
Bison priscus (bison)
Equus caballus (horse)
Rhinoceros tichorhinus (woolly rhinoceros)
Elephas primigenius (mammoth)
Castor fiber (beaver)
Trichechus rosmarus (walrus)

Though mammalian bones are now so seldom
found, whenever the 'sand-banks shift slightly, as they
tend to do under the influence of tides and currents,
the edges of the submerged plateau are laid bare,
exposing submarine ledges of moorlog, which still
yield a continuous supply of this material. Messrs.
Whitehead and Goodchild have recently published an
excellent account of it, having obtained from the
trawlers numerous slabs of the peculiar peaty deposit,
with particulars as to the latitude and longitude in
which the specimens were dredged. Mrs Reid and I
have to thank the authors for an opportunity of
examining samples of the material, which has yielded
most interesting evidence as to the physical history,
botany, and climatic conditions of this sunken land.
The following account is mainly taken from their
paper and our appendix to it.

We are still without information as to the exact
positions of the submarine ledges and cliffs of peat
from which the masses have been torn; but there
seems little doubt that some of them were actually
torn off by the trawl. One block sent to me was full
of recently dead half-grown Pholas parva, all of one
age, and must evidently haye been torn off the solid
ledge. Pholas never makes its home in loose blocks.
We unfortunately know very little about the natural
history of the boring mollusca and their length of life.
If, as I think, this species takes two years to reach
full growth, then it is evident that the ledge of moorlog
full of half-grown specimens must have been
exposed to the sea continuously for one year, but not
for longer. It ought also perliaps to tell us the depth
of water from which the mass was torn ; but nothing
is known as to the depth to which Pholas may extend
—it has the reputation of occurring between tidemarks
or just below, but it may extend downwards
wherever there is a submarine cliff.

Though we are still unable to locate exactly these
submarine ledges or fix their depth below the sea, the
blocks of moorlog are so widely distributed around
the Dogger Bank, and have been dredged in such
large masses, that it seems clear that a "submerged
forest" forms part of the core of the bank. As nothing
else approaching to a solid stratum appears to be
dredged over this shoal, we may assume that the
moorlog forms a sort of cap or cornice at a depth of
about 10 fathoms, overlying loose sandy strata, and
perhaps boulder clay, which extend downward to
another 10 fatlioms, or 120 feet altogether. Unfortunately
we cannot say from what deposit the large
bones of extinct animals were washed ; they may come
from the sands below the moorlog, but it is quite as
probable that the Pleistocene deposits formed islands
in the ancient fen—as they do now in East Anglia,
Holderness, and Holland.

More than one submerged forest may be present
on the Dogger Bank. The masses of moorlog are
usually dredged on the slopes at a depth of 22 or 23
fathoms ; but at the south-west end it occurs on the top
as well as on the slope, the sea-bottom on which the
moorlog is found consisting of fine grey sand, probably
an estuarine silt connected with the submerged forest,
for the North Sea sand is commonly coarse and gritty.
With regard to the moorlog itself and its contents,
it is possible that some of the mammals in the list,
such as the reindeer, beaver, and walrus, may belong
to this upper deposit; but we have no means of distinguishing
them, as the bones were all found loose
and free from the matrix. The insects and plants
were all obtained from slabs of this peat.

The dredged cakes of peat handed to us for examination
came from different parts of the bank ; but
they were all very similar in character, and showed
only the slight differences found in different parts of
the same fen. The bed is essentially a fen-deposit of
purely organic origin, with little trace of inorganic
mud. It is fissile and very luird when dry, and in it
are scaltered a certain number of fairly well-preserved
seeds, principally belonging to the bog-bean. Other
recognisable plant-remains are not abundant. They
consist of rare willow-leaves, fragments of birch-wood
and bark, pieces of the scalariform tissue and sporangia
of a fern, and moss, and, curiously enough, of groups
of stamens of willow-herb with well-preserved pollengrains,
though the whole of the rest of the plant to
which they belonged had decayed.

The material is exceptionally tough, and is very
difficult to disintegrate. In order to remove the
structureless humus which composed the greater part
of the peat, we found it necessary to break it into
thin flakes and boil it in a strong soda solution for
three or four days. Afterwards the material was
passed through a sieve, the fine flocculent parts being
washed away by a stream of water, the undecomposed
plant remains being left behind in a state for examination.
These remains were mixed with a large amount
of shreds of cuticle, etc., but recognisable leaves were
not found in the washed material.

The general result of our examination is to suggest
that the deposit comes from the middle of some vast
fen, so far from rising land that all terrigenous material
has been strained out of the peaty water. The vegetation,
as far as we have yet seen, consists exclusively
of swamp species, with no admixture of hard-seeded
edible fruits, usually so Avidely distributed by birds,
and no wind-borne composites. The sea was probably
some distance away, as there is little sign of brackisliwater
plants, or eveu of plants which usually occur
within reach of an occasional tide ; one piece however
yielded seeds of Ruppia, The climate to which
the plants point may be described as northei-n. The
white-birch, sallow and hazel were the only trees;
the alder is absent. All the plants have a high
northern range, and one, the dwarf Arctic-birch, is
never found at sea-level in latitudes as far south as
the Dogger Bank (except very rarely in the Baltic
provinces of Germany).


The plants already found are :

Ranunculus Lingua,
Betula alba
Gastalia alba,
Betula nana
Cochlearia sp.,
Corylus Avellana
Lychnis Flos-cuculi,
Salix repens
Arenaria trinervia,
Salix aurita
Spiraea Ulmaria,
Sparganium simplex
Rubus frutieosus,
Alisma Plantago
Epilobium sp.,
Potamogeton natans
Galium sp.,
Ruppia rostellata
Valeriana officinalis,
Scirpus sp.
Menyantties trifoliata,
Carex sp.
Lycopus europaeus,
Phragmites communis,
Atriplex patula

Among the nine species of beetle determined by
Mr G. C. Champion it is noticeable that two belong
to sandy places. This suggests that the fen may have
had its seaward edge protected by a belt of sand-dunes,
just as the coast of Holland is at the present day.
This submerged forest in the middle of the North
Sea has been described fully, for it raises a host of
interesting questions, that require much more research
before we can answer them. A sunken land-surface
60 feet and more below the sea at high-tide corresponds
very closely with the lowest of the submerged forests
met with in our dock-excavations. But if another bed
of peat occurs at a depth of 130 or 140 feet at the
Dogger Bank, this would be far below the level of any
recently sunk land-surface yet recognised in Britain.
Also, if the slabs of very modern-looking peat, containing
only plants and insects still living in Britain, come
from such a depth, out of what older deposit can the
Pleistocene mammals, such as elephant, rhinoceros,
and hyaena, have been washed?

These questions cannot be answered conclusively
without scientific dredging, to fix the exact positions
and depths of the outcrops of moorlog. When we
remember also that beneath a submerged forest at
about the depth of the Dogger Bank there was found
at Tilbury, in the Thames Valley, a human skeleton;
and that both human remains and stone implements
have been discovered in similar deposits elsewhere, we
can point to the Dogger Bank as an excellent field
for scientific exploration.

The Dogger Bank once formed the northern edge
of a great alluvial plain, occupying what is now the
southern half of the North Sea, and stretching across
to Holland and Denmark. If we go beyond the
Dogger Bank and seek for answers to these questions
on the further shore, we find moorlog washed up
abundantly on the coasts of both Holland and Denmark,
and it has evidently been torn off submerged ledges
like those of the Bank. Numerous borings in Holland
give us still further information, for they show that
beneath the wide alluvial plain, which lies close to the
level of the sea, there exists a considerable thickness
of modern strata. At Amsterdam, for instance, two
beds of peat are met with well below the sea-level, the
upper occurring at about the level of low-tide, the
lower at a depth of about .50 or 60 feet below meantide.
That is to say, the lowest submerged landsurface
is found in Holland at just about the same
depth as it occurs in England, and probably on the
Dogger Bank also.

Below this submerged land-surface at Amsterdam
are found marine clays and sands, which seem to
show that the lowest " continental deposit," as it is
called by Dutch geologists, spread seaward over the
silted-up bed of the North Sea ; but no buried landsurfaces
have yet been found below the 60-foot level
anywhere in Holland.

This appearance of two distinct and thick peatbeds,
underlain, separated, and overlaid by marine
deposits, seems to characterise great part of the
Dutch plain. It points to a long period of subsidence,
broken by two intervals of stationary sealevel,
when peat-mosses flourished and spread far and
wide over the flat, interspersed with shallow lakes,
like the Norfolk broads.

The enclosed and almost tideless Baltic apparently
tells the same story, for at Rostock at its southern
end, a submerged peat-bed has been met with at a
depth of 46 feet.

On passing northward into Scandinavia we enter
an area in which, as in Scotland, recent changes in
sea-level have been complicated by tilting, so that
ancient beach-lines no longer correspond in elevation
at difterent places. The deformation has been so
great that it is impossible to trace the submerged
forests ; they may be represented in the north by
the raised beaches, which in Norway and Sweden, as
in Scotland and the north of Ireland, seem to belong
to a far more recent period than the raised beaches
of the south of England. It seems useless to attempt
to continue our researches on submerged forests further
in this direction, especially as during the latest
stages, when we know England was sinking, Gothland
appears to have been slowly rising. Those who wish
to learn about the changes that took place in the
south of Sweden should refer to the recent monograph
by Dr Munthe.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 December 2011 - 05:12 PM.


#761    PostAD

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 05:21 PM

First off...Mr. Abramelin, I love the stationary quote. (is a huge fan of the Trismegistus continuum)
I have read this thread, rather quickly, and hope that these comments are not redundant (surely the main one is too abstract).
This recent bit about Deruelle and the description of submerged discoveries is fascinating.  Although I am skeptical about some of the larger Pleistocene mammal species purported to have been found.

Do we accept that Heligoland, geologically distinct by comparison to it's neighbors in the north sea, enters into this concept as a possible remnant of the Northland landmass?
If so...I couldn't help but get chills when I learned that Werner Heisenberg first formulated the equation underlying his picture of quantum mechanics (i.e. Uncertainty Principle) while on Heligoland in the 1920s.
As if Douglass Adams were laughing at me from beyond the grave.  Maybe Heisenberg was inspired by the ghosts of Atlantis...WoooOOOoooOooo ;-)

I would love to hear any theories you have on low sea level land masses along the north coast of the US and Greenland.

Stephen Baxter's "Stone Spring" (- which ultimately lead me to this thread - google search "Etxelur Map" -) is a really fun read...if you need some less scholarly, but still topical fiction in your diet.

In the story, one of the subtle elements is a description of identical stone carvings (concentric circles with a vertical "stem") existing in Northland/Doggerland and the eastern shore of the North American Continent.
This is very fictional, he even goes so far as to assert that Clovis culture refugees had contact with seafaring Northlanders in the 4000 BCs.
However, It makes me wonder if the same effects that allowed Doggerland to flourish (particularly the warm sea currents and low sea) could have sustained more hominids along the coasts of the north Atlantic and modern Canada.

I would also love to see a connection between the enthno-linguistic units in Gaul and Spain (basque) and the final integration/extinction of the Neanderthals.  There is already some speculation that red hair is a leftover of their genetic influence.  Could that branch of Language have been influenced by the language of a totally separate hominid species?

This has been a wonderful discussion (forgiving some drama) and I am grateful to have found it.  I wish Sylvain Tristan and Alan Butler were in on this thread!  

Best,


#762    Abramelin

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 06:30 PM

 PostAD, on 02 February 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

First off...Mr. Abramelin, I love the stationary quote. (is a huge fan of the Trismegistus continuum)
I have read this thread, rather quickly, and hope that these comments are not redundant (surely the main one is too abstract).
This recent bit about Deruelle and the description of submerged discoveries is fascinating.  Although I am skeptical about some of the larger Pleistocene mammal species purported to have been found.

Do we accept that Heligoland, geologically distinct by comparison to it's neighbors in the north sea, enters into this concept as a possible remnant of the Northland landmass?
If so...I couldn't help but get chills when I learned that Werner Heisenberg first formulated the equation underlying his picture of quantum mechanics (i.e. Uncertainty Principle) while on Heligoland in the 1920s.
As if Douglass Adams were laughing at me from beyond the grave.  Maybe Heisenberg was inspired by the ghosts of Atlantis...WoooOOOoooOooo ;-)

I would love to hear any theories you have on low sea level land masses along the north coast of the US and Greenland.

Stephen Baxter's "Stone Spring" (- which ultimately lead me to this thread - google search "Etxelur Map" -) is a really fun read...if you need some less scholarly, but still topical fiction in your diet.

In the story, one of the subtle elements is a description of identical stone carvings (concentric circles with a vertical "stem") existing in Northland/Doggerland and the eastern shore of the North American Continent.
This is very fictional, he even goes so far as to assert that Clovis culture refugees had contact with seafaring Northlanders in the 4000 BCs.
However, It makes me wonder if the same effects that allowed Doggerland to flourish (particularly the warm sea currents and low sea) could have sustained more hominids along the coasts of the north Atlantic and modern Canada.

I would also love to see a connection between the enthno-linguistic units in Gaul and Spain (basque) and the final integration/extinction of the Neanderthals.  There is already some speculation that red hair is a leftover of their genetic influence.  Could that branch of Language have been influenced by the language of a totally separate hominid species?

This has been a wonderful discussion (forgiving some drama) and I am grateful to have found it.  I wish Sylvain Tristan and Alan Butler were in on this thread!  

Best,

Hi PostAD, and as one who has become part of the furniture of this house, I welcome you to this site.

Oh, and read that 'stationary quote' carefully... I changed it slightly only recently.

Well, I am glad you took the trouble of reading through this thread; that's kind of rare for newbies.

You said you wished Sylvain Tristan and Alan Butler were in on this thread, but I wish Tristan had done what he said he would do: archeological research at the Dogger Bank. But maybe he wasn't able to raise enough funds.

Anyway, if you have any great thoughts or ideas concerning this topic, don't hesitate to post them.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 February 2012 - 06:58 PM.


#763    Abramelin

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 07:47 PM

On this page I talked about the "White Island of the Dead" or the "White Bank":

http://www.unexplain...4

Posted Image

Not that it is proof it was above sealevel in historical times, but maybe the legend about it was around for far longer. And today I found a centuries old map depicting an island of considerable size north of Friesland/Frisia (the island depicted in green):

Posted Image
1493 Hartman Schedel (publisher)- Hieronymus Munzer (editor)- Michael Wolgemut (engraver): "Europa," from the "Nuremberg Chronicle,"

Full size here:
http://www.lithuania...70658_large.jpg

Source:
http://www.lithuania...anian_area_maps

I realize the proportions of about anything on that map - based on Ptolemy - are way off, but still I wonder what island that could have been.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 February 2012 - 08:10 PM.


#764    Urisk

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:10 PM

 Abramelin, on 05 October 2009 - 06:16 PM, said:



So I'd like to ask people knowledgable about ancient Scandinavian and/or Celtic and/or Germanic mythology if there is indeed a myth/legend that says anything about land submerging beneath the waves.



I'm not reading through 51 pages tonight :P But I can at least partly answer this. I hope...

There are myths about Annwn, which was supposed to be some hidden island off the coast of Wales. A bit out of the way I know, but presumably if people fled North/West then they would take their beliefs with them. I'm sure there are myths pertaining to some mirror-like world inhabited by faeries or suchlike hidden just beneath the waves. Although I don't immediately have theb ook to hand (it's currently elsewhere) I'm sure something like this was not only written, but actually illustrated, in the book Faeries by Brian Froud and Alan Lee. it's a book on British, essentially Celtic and Anglo-Saxon, critters, beasties and beliefs.

I'll have to dig out my books on the subject matter when I can get to them, but I can have a wee search around for similar legends.

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#765    Abramelin

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 08:32 PM

 Urisk, on 04 February 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

I'm not reading through 51 pages tonight :P But I can at least partly answer this. I hope...

There are myths about Annwn, which was supposed to be some hidden island off the coast of Wales. A bit out of the way I know, but presumably if people fled North/West then they would take their beliefs with them. I'm sure there are myths pertaining to some mirror-like world inhabited by faeries or suchlike hidden just beneath the waves. Although I don't immediately have theb ook to hand (it's currently elsewhere) I'm sure something like this was not only written, but actually illustrated, in the book Faeries by Brian Froud and Alan Lee. it's a book on British, essentially Celtic and Anglo-Saxon, critters, beasties and beliefs.

I'll have to dig out my books on the subject matter when I can get to them, but I can have a wee search around for similar legends.

Hi Urisk, I love the 'rook/plague mask', heh.

But I think you meant to say "if people fled South/West", because that is the direction people would flee to from Doggerland to Wales, or from it's last remnant, Dogger Island.

I have a book written by Katherine Briggs, "A Dictionary of Fairies", and a book by Anne Ross, "Pagan Celtic Britain", Lady Augusta Gregory's "Gods and Fighting Men - The Story of the Tuatha de Danaan and of the Fianna of Ireland", and about 20 other books about the Celts and their legends and myths in Britain and Ireland, but nothing hinting to anything in the North Sea.

Take your time, and I am curious about what you are able to dig up.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 February 2012 - 08:33 PM.





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