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The Woman clothed with the Sun...

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#1    Jor-el

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:14 PM

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Revelation 12:1-6


The Woman and the Dragon

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

I would like your comments regarding this text and what it means to you...

Personally I would like to share with you something that I found interesting regarding this text. While the imagery is well known, it is not commonly known that the symbology and imagery of this text has everything to do with a specific time period in the past. Specifically it relates to a specifc day:

The 11th of Septemeber, 3 B.C.E

How so might one ask, by using a specific subject called archaeoastronomy we find that this imagery was once reflected in the sky by the stars on that specific day. It also happened to be the 1st of Tishri, the Jewish New Year, also known as Rosh Hoshana. It is the first of the High Holy Days or Yamim Nora'im (Days of Awe) which usually occur in the early autumn of the Northern Hemisphere. The day is believed to be the anniversary of the creation of Adam and Eve, the first man and woman, and their first actions toward the realization of mankind’s role in God's world. Rosh Hashanah customs include sounding the shofar, which is why it is also called the day of Trumpets.



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So, what is so special about this day, that it stands out in the bible?

It is the birthday of Jesus Christ.

Edited by Jor-el, 23 April 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#2    and then

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:52 PM

And you came to this conclusion, how?  I'd be interested to have the date setting explained.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#3    markprice

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:47 PM

Off the top of my head I would say she is obviously linked to the old pagan wisdom schools through astrology (twelve stars) and alchemy (sun/moon) while the dragon representing the profane had already wiped out a third of the gods. God has to act quick or the child of knowledge would be dead. She retreats to the woods where she is able to build up and gather knowledge for the future.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#4    markprice

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:05 AM

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Had something like that in mind.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#5    Jor-el

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:59 PM

View Postand then, on 23 April 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

And you came to this conclusion, how?  I'd be interested to have the date setting explained.

Well, that involves some lengthy explanations on a number of subjects, which form the core group of signs and accompanying information that can place the date into its proper setting.

Basically there are 3 parts to the context.

1. Astronomy
2. History
3. The biblical record

Regarding the 1st part, I have already provided one part of the information that is found in Revelation. It is essentially the key that unlocks the rest of the context. There is more though. At the same time that this solar lunar conjunction with Virgo is happening, there are two other occurences, which allow us to place the date with confidence.

Above Virgo, there is another constellation, we call it Leo which is as we know associated with the title The lion of Judah. Most people ignore the fact that the ancient Israelites were keen followers of the stars and the astrology of that time. They did not adhere to the astrology as we know it today, which is total BS, buty those symbols in the night sky had great meaning to them. Each and every Israelite tribe had a sign that symbolized their tribe, and they used the 12 great constellations that are today known as the astrological signs:

Reuben, 'boiling over with water,' is Aquarius
Simeon and Levi, 'the brethren,' are Gemini, the Twins
Judah,'the lion's whelp,' is Leo, the Lion
Zebulon, 'who shall dwell at the beach of the sea,' is Pisces, the Fish
Issachar, 'a gelded donkey lying down in the cattle pens (REB)' is Taurus (the Bull)
Dan, 'a serpent in the way,' is Scorpio (the Scorpion)
Gad, 'a troop shall press upon him; but he shall press upon their heel,' is Aries (the Ram).
Asher, 'the weigher of bread,' is Libra, the Scales
Nephtali, 'a hind let loose,' is Capricorn, the Goat
Joseph, 'whose bow abides in strength,' is Sagittarius, the Archer
Benjamin, 'ravening as a wolf, devouring his prey by morning, dividing the spoil at night,' is Cancer, the Crab
The 12 sons have been named but one sign remains- Virgo (the Virgin). This sign is 'veiled,' and is correlated with Dinah, Jacob's daughter (Gen 30:21).

The beginning of these events was in September 14th, 3 B.C. On this date the following happened...


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Jupiter had a conjunction with the star Regulus, which belongs to the constellation of Leo. Jupiter, known as the "King Planet" at that time as well as today, came to occupy a position of extreme proximity to to Regulus known as the "King Star". Regulus has always had a connection to Royalty and Kingship.

As the brightest star in Leo, Regulus has been almost universally associated in ancient cultures with the concept of royal or kingly power. The name Regulus actually comes from the Latin rex, or king. The star was known in Arabia as Malikiyy, the Kingly One; in Greece as the "Star of the King"; in ancient Babylon, as Sharru or the King; to the even more ancient Akkadians of Mesopotamia it represented Amil-gal-ur, the legendary King of the Celestial Sphere who ruled before the great flood.

The constellation of Leo has a number of interesting characteristics, 1st it is biblically the constellation of the tribe of Judah. Each tribe had its own symbol and each symbol is reflected in a constelletation. Leo, was Judahs Symbol. Furthermore, Regulus itself has always been connected biblically to the Messiah.

Genesis 49:10

10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his.


What most people fail to realize is that this verse is actually connecting the Messiah to Regulus, the King star between Leos paws. ;)

Source

Now, conjunctions are relatively frequent, what is not frequent is a triple conjunction between a fixed star and a planet. In this case, Jupiter had a conjunction with Regulus on September the 14, 3 B.C.

It then moved away and came back due to retrograde motion and visited Regulus again on February 17th, 2 B.C and did this a 3rd time on May 8th to the 9th, 2 B.C. Yet things did not stop there.

After the planet’s three separate conjunctions with Regulus, Jupiter then continued its westward journey (as observers would have viewed it on earth). On June 17, 2 B.C. it had a spectacularly rare reunion with Venus. The two planets were then a mere .01 degrees from one another and they would have appeared to people on earth like a single “double-star” which only the sharpest eyes would have been able to separate. To people it would have looked like a single star that had the combined brightness of both Venus and Juptiter, the two brightest objects in the sky.

As a matter of fact it was sufficiently bright to be visible even during the day and all still within the constellation of Leo. I would draw your attention that the Magi who would have taken predawn readings of the stars, would have seen these events happeneing in the EAST. Therfore this is the direction they would have travelled.


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This is the iconic image of the Star of Bethlehem that everyone percieves in their minds, and its origin was here on this day of June 17th 2 B.C. Yet it is only a part of the whole story. It is this planetary conjunction between Venus (The Mother Planet) and Jupiter (The King Planet) in the region of Regulus (The King Star) in the constellation of Leo (The tribe of Judah) that inspired the Magi to start on their Journey in an Easterly drection.

Here is an interesting article on the Magi and who and what they were... Link

Now many ask why others, like king Herod didn't see this amazing star of Bethlehem?

The King did not notice anything until the Magi arrived because he was not a Magi and his astrologers were not Magi either, and they would not have seen the meaning of the events as reflected in the teachings and training the Magi recieved. As I said, an unusual event like a comet or any other surprising celestial event like a giant star would certainly have gotten everyones attention, if Herod wasn't aware of this, then it wasn't something completely out of the ordinary.

Now for the 3rd part of this phenomenon we call the star of bethlehem.

If the Magi had left soon after witnessing the conjunction that created the brightest star in the heavens for a few days in the East, they would have had to travel 1,287 Km (800 miles). They could have done this in 32 days if they had travelled an average distance of 40 km per day (25 miles). Since they were simply travelling westward and didn't have a clear destination they probably took a little longer. We know from Matthew 2:2 that when they arrived Jesus was no longer a baby infant but a child, and was living in Bethlehem, in a house (not a stable or a cave).

Therefore if they arrived sometime in November or December of 2 B.C., Jesus would have been around 1 year and 3 months old or according to other views at least 6 months old. This depends on whether one views his birth taking place at the beginning of these events or only when the planetarty conjunction happened in June 17th of 2 B.C.

Finally, if the Magi in Jerusalem, following Jupiter (The King Planet at is rising) had taken a view of that "star" at their normal time (predawn) they would have seen the star stop. Jupiter would have stopped due to retrograde motion and would seem to hang in the sky for a day or 2 before starting to move again.

Now guess what day it was that Jupiter "stopped in the heavens"? 25 December 2 B.C.

As an example of retrograde motion I will post this image of Mars and its motion in the Sky...


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And here is one of Jupiter and a number of other planets.... all of them stopping their motion in the sky.


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Here is some further information on retrograde motion... Moving worlds, Wandering stars

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#6    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:57 AM

You have misinterpreted this wrong.  

Go back to Joseph and his life to find the answer.

The stars above her head are her children.

This woman will have 12 children.




#7    MasterFlint

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:25 AM

the 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel crowning the Queen Mother, Mother Mary, the Child is Jesus the Christ.  The Woman/Queen Mother also represents the entire church and Israel itself (since it is taught that Mary is the neck of the church, where Jesus is the Head in the body of Christ) Mary as the top of the church in Authority after Jesus (since she's the Queen Mother) is the one representing Israel in this passage......after the abomination is set up in the Temple in Jerusalem and the anit-christ declares he is god, he will make war upon the saints and seek to destroy Israel all together....  the 1,260 days is the same as the 1,290 days given in the book of Daniel, it's the tail end, 3 1/2 years of the 7 years of tribulation.....  God sustaining/nourishing the woman in the wilderness is telling us that God will provide for the people of Israel during this last 3 1/2 years where they will be in hiding and be hunted down by their enemies....

Daniel Chapter 12:
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


#8    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:57 AM

This prophesy concerns the returning messiah.  The messianic mission ended for Israel as a group after Christ was crucified.

Edited by Irrelevant, 25 April 2013 - 06:57 AM.


#9    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:08 AM

View PostMasterFlint, on 25 April 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

the 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel crowning the Queen Mother, Mother Mary, the Child is Jesus the Christ.  The Woman/Queen Mother also represents the entire church and Israel itself (since it is taught that Mary is the neck of the church, where Jesus is the Head in the body of Christ) Mary as the top of the church in Authority after Jesus (since she's the Queen Mother) is the one representing Israel in this passage......after the abomination is set up in the Temple in Jerusalem and the anit-christ declares he is god, he will make war upon the saints and seek to destroy Israel all together....  the 1,260 days is the same as the 1,290 days given in the book of Daniel, it's the tail end, 3 1/2 years of the 7 years of tribulation.....  God sustaining/nourishing the woman in the wilderness is telling us that God will provide for the people of Israel during this last 3 1/2 years where they will be in hiding and be hunted down by their enemies....

Daniel Chapter 12:
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The twelve stars are the brothers of Joseph and they did bow down before him in Egypt.

This woman will not be a mother but the Eve of the returning Adam.

He will complete what was not able to be done, only a new wine skin will be able to receive them.

Secondly this Adam will also suffer much and be rejected. Luke 17 24-25.




#10    MasterFlint

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 25 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

The twelve stars are the brothers of Joseph and they did bow down before him in Egypt.

This woman will not be a mother but the Eve of the returning Adam.

He will complete what was not able to be done, only a new wine skin will be able to receive them.

Secondly this Adam will also suffer much and be rejected. Luke 17 24-25.

Mother Mary is the new Eve.  Jesus is the new Adam, says so in Romans.


#11    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:24 AM

So mother Mary is going to have her bones reconstructed,  rise out of the ground or is she coming in her own cloud first since a mother must come first?

The Eve will be called Mother  just as We call Jesus Father. The titles would have been given to Adam and Eve had they not fallen.

Jesus was the second Adam, the second tree of life..in his own words Jesus says " I am the tree of Life" is it possible Adam was the tree of life since Jesus was the tree of life. And since Jesus is the tree of life is it also possible the tree of the good and evil was actually Eve ( fruit: Kane and Abel ).

And what of these other 12 trees that surrounded to two trees in the middle..

It don't matter, I know it's a big jump for many and I'm pointing out the various symbolism. Symbolism also demonstrated by the woman with 12 stars above her head and how it relates to the dream of Joseph.



But this is relevant in some way..

Did the actual Elijah come back before Jesus as was promised? If so , who was he? Since this is the very reason why the Jewish don't accept Jesus was the messiah to this day! ( Read that again ) Where and who was Elijah if he had to return first.

Even to this day the eldest boy in a Jewish house must go out on the street before dinner and check to see if Elijah has returned..calling " Elijah where are you, are you here!"

It's important this question as it demonstrates a few principles.

Edited by Irrelevant, 25 April 2013 - 08:45 AM.


#12    and then

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

The woman is Israel, the twelve stars are the tribes of Israel, the child is Christ and the moon under her feet is false religion in defeat.  It is a picture of the end state for mankind.  This is how it was explained to me - that and a buck fifty will buy you a cup of decent coffee  :yes:

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#13    MasterFlint

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostIrrelevant, on 25 April 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

So mother Mary is going to have her bones reconstructed,  rise out of the ground or is she coming in her own cloud first since a mother must come first?

The Eve will be called Mother  just as We call Jesus Father. The titles would have been given to Adam and Eve had they not fallen.

Jesus was the second Adam, the second tree of life..in his own words Jesus says " I am the tree of Life" is it possible Adam was the tree of life since Jesus was the tree of life. And since Jesus is the tree of life is it also possible the tree of the good and evil was actually Eve ( fruit: Kane and Abel ).

And what of these other 12 trees that surrounded to two trees in the middle..

It don't matter, I know it's a big jump for many and I'm pointing out the various symbolism. Symbolism also demonstrated by the woman with 12 stars above her head and how it relates to the dream of Joseph.



But this is relevant in some way..

Did the actual Elijah come back before Jesus as was promised? If so , who was he? Since this is the very reason why the Jewish don't accept Jesus was the messiah to this day! ( Read that again ) Where and who was Elijah if he had to return first.

Even to this day the eldest boy in a Jewish house must go out on the street before dinner and check to see if Elijah has returned..calling " Elijah where are you, are you here!"

It's important this question as it demonstrates a few principles.

Lol.  You REALLY need a theology lesson...  I don't know what in the world your going on about with bones being reconstructed???   What in the world are you talking about?  The Catholics teach from a story handed down from the Apostles and written down around 300 AD, that Mary died, but then was resurrected and taken up into Heaven to be with Jesus, once in Heaven she was crowned Queen of Heaven.  Mary is the new Eve because she gave birth to Jesus Christ who was the new Sinless Man, the new Adam, through him were all the sins attoned for, giving life to mankind again.  Since she is Jesus's mother and ALL of our Spiritual Mother, and gave birth to a child without sin, she is the New Eve!  Jesus is the new Adam.

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel, they carry the names of Joseph and his brothers, but it isn't a carry over from Genesis...

And John The Baptist was Elijah coming before Christ, part of Elijah's spirit was given to John, just like part of his spirit was given to his pupil, Elisha...


#14    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:32 AM

Well I just finished my coffee

So we have established John the Baptist is Elijah ?

There is no doubt in you John the Baptist is Elijah?






#15    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 10:10 AM

View PostMasterFlint, on 25 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:



Lol.  You REALLY need a theology lesson...  I don't know what in the world your going on about with bones being reconstructed???   What in the world are you talking about?  The Catholics teach from a story handed down from the Apostles and written down around 300 AD, that Mary died, but then was resurrected and taken up into Heaven to be with Jesus, once in Heaven she was crowned Queen of Heaven.  Mary is the new Eve because she gave birth to Jesus Christ who was the new Sinless Man, the new Adam, through him were all the sins attoned for, giving life to mankind again.  Since she is Jesus's mother and ALL of our Spiritual Mother, and gave birth to a child without sin, she is the New Eve!  Jesus is the new Adam.

The 12 stars are the 12 tribes of Israel, they carry the names of Joseph and his brothers, but it isn't a carry over from Genesis...

And John The Baptist was Elijah coming before Christ, part of Elijah's spirit was given to John, just like part of his spirit was given to his pupil, Elisha...

So your a catholic, well I'm Jesuite , and JEPD is proven tripe.

Also in the 70s the teaching about Mary being a prostitute was wound back and changed..the church admitted they got it wrong.

However just like the Catholic Church got that wrong so was this explanation you just gave because its clearly states she gives birth to the one who will rule the world with a rod of Iron, and this is also clear to be the returning lord and somebody other than Jesus, in fact he is spoken of by Jesus saying " he will not teach in parables but speak plainly of the Father"  

I can understand you wish to put forward the official position, but what makes you think it's infallible if even somebody  as important as marry can be painted a prostitute?

This prophesy about the woman with 12 stars is clear to be about somebody external to Marry, Just as the one who rules with a rod or Iron, the spirit of truth, the return of Messiah is clear about somebody not Jesus.

If its so please explain how Jesus rules with a rod of Iron and has one foot on Land and the other on the Sea?







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