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#16    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 12:31 AM

View PostIamsSon, on 17 March 2010 - 06:09 PM, said:

I think my view closely matches PAs. Satan is a created being, who was given his purpose by God, and is not God's opposite equivalent. He is dangerous, and Scripture does warn believers to be aware of him and his ability to mislead believers, "8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." (1 Peter 5:8-9).

Where Christians get the idea that Satan is somehow equal to God, I have yet to understand.
For me, personally, the answer is in two parts. The lesser part is my own understanding of the contextual whole of the bible, where i think the role of satan is clear from genesis to revelations . However, I recognise that the bible is open to subjective interpretations, no matter what it contains. So my more imperative reason for seeing satan as almost equal in power to god, is in observing human nature.

Humans are open to great good and great evil. In human hearts/ emotions and minds/ intellect, satan has equal power and influence to god. Every heart and every mind is open, and free to be convinced by either satan or god. It is in this, that the true power and danger of satan exists. If we had no free will, then satan would have no power over us. We do, and so he has power.

Satan is known as the great deceiver with good reason. His appeals include powerful logics and emotions which appeal to the way humans feel and think.
Gods way is too restrictive for some.

Even so the physical results of the choices people make for good and evil are observable every day; in our own lives, our local communities, and in the television, radio, and newspaper reports we  see, hear, or read.

Satans way is not a subset of gods way or will. God does not want us to chose satan's way. He wants us to chose his way, but he leaves that choice entirely to us .

To do otherwise would abrogate the basic nature of humanity and its relationship with god. We are gods'd only if/ when we chose to be so.

While god welcomes all of us, he can not force us to come to him. It is this which gives satan the power he has.

God cannot be blamed for giving satan power That power exists only in the free will god gives all his sapient creations. It is part of the whole deal, without which we could not chose to love, or obey, god.

Edited by Mr Walker, 18 March 2010 - 12:37 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#17    Karlis

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 02:34 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 18 March 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:



~~~ ...
...  God does not want us to chose satan's way. He wants us to chose his way, but he leaves that choice entirely to us .

To do otherwise would abrogate the basic nature of humanity and its relationship with god. We are gods'd only if/ when we chose to be so.

While god welcomes all of us, he can not force us to come to him. It is this which gives satan the power he has.

God cannot be blamed for giving satan power That power exists only in the free will god gives all his sapient creations. It is part of the whole deal, without which we could not chose to love, or obey, god.
Folks, I'm commenting specifically on the above aspect in Mr Walker's post, because imo it pretty well perfectly fits in with the idea that God is creating character in human minds -- to learn to choose one specific way in life, against all opposition, and in all circumstances. When "perfect" character develops within one's psyche, that person could then be regarded as spiritually, emotionally and otherwise of the same nature as God; aka "in God's likeness".

Only such developed character would be suitable for those humans who are to be raised as immortal spirit children of God, as members of God's family.

Just tossing in a thought here, without enlarging on it, :)
Karlis


#18    Rosewin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 09:41 AM

Excellent post Norwood. Personally I believe it is based on the person themselves. If they are the type to avoid things out of fear as their main focus then it is most likely Satan will be just another thing made bigger than it is because of fear. On the other hand if they are the type who seek out positive things as their main focus then Satan will not play that great of a role.

I recently noticed that my childhood home was at one time a fun place to be in where I could run around the house in huge circles because of the layout. Then as my parents got deep into a very hard-core church we lost our television, stopped celebrating holidays, and avoided 'the world'. They also shut one of the two doors in their bedroom so that I no longer could run around in full circles through the house. That act alone was very indicative of the type of energy we were living under, which was no longer flowing freely.

Bottom line if you are more worried about not sinning than you are focused on just simply doing good and being positive, if you find yourself praying in a very panicky state, begging for help as a habit instead of simply talking to God calmly and awaiting for the signs in return, then it is most likely you are living under fear and actually praying to Panic and not to God.

At least that is how I feel.


#19    SlimJim22

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 03:27 PM

Enjoying everybody's points and wanted to guage a response to my most recent thoughts on the subject. Balance in the cosmos seems important in the sense that there is attraction and repulsion and this is what brings about change and motion. Emotion of the observer are very important in the latest quantum research but I may be digressing a bit sorry. My point is that God is neither good nor evil, he is divine, he is all and none sort of thing. IMO that would make Satan comparablle to matter opposed to the spirit of God. There is the space to have Jesus as the good aspect and Nimrod as the evil. It could be that there are just the two forces with God as the source of both but in the essence of balance I see there being four elements and it making at least a little sense.  

The thread has reminded me of my favourite Jimi Hendrix quote "Only the power of love can overcome the love of power"

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#20    norwood1026

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 03:31 PM

Maybe I missed something some of you still haven't anwsered why Christian tend to give Satan more power then other Judeo-Christian faiths.

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#21    IamsSon

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 04:14 PM

View Postnorwood1026, on 18 March 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

Maybe I missed something some of you still haven't anwsered why Christian tend to give Satan more power then other Judeo-Christian faiths.

Because they haven't actually studied the Bible. That's the only possible answer I can come up with because Scripture clearly teaches that Satan is not God's equal, and teaches that God protects His children.

"But then with me that horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin, in a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881

#22    SlimJim22

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 04:29 PM

View Postnorwood1026, on 18 March 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

Maybe I missed something some of you still haven't anwsered why Christian tend to give Satan more power then other Judeo-Christian faiths.


If they wanted to obscure the nature of Nimrod; then raising Satan to a position of great evil would be the best method on top of destroying the texts. It's just a shame or perhaps a blessing about the Qumran scrolls.

You make a good point though, why increase the importance of Satan above Judaism? IMO to draw attention, to distract and to deceive. If Satan is the opposite of God then he is not good or evil, he just is...

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#23    norwood1026

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 05:02 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 18 March 2010 - 04:29 PM, said:

If they wanted to obscure the nature of Nimrod; then raising Satan to a position of great evil would be the best method on top of destroying the texts. It's just a shame or perhaps a blessing about the Qumran scrolls.

You make a good point though, why increase the importance of Satan above Judaism? IMO to draw attention, to distract and to deceive. If Satan is the opposite of God then he is not good or evil, he just is...


In my opnion it shows that Judaism & Christianty are two very different faiths.

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#24    Rosewin

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 09:24 PM

View Postnorwood1026, on 18 March 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

Maybe I missed something some of you still haven't anwsered why Christian tend to give Satan more power then other Judeo-Christian faiths.

I can answer but I am not sure you will be satisfied with the answer Norwood. Have you ever considered the differences between how witches were treated in various countries in Europe throughout history? The treatment was not always the same depending on the region.

If one takes a closer look they can see that in the north of Europe, where the weather is colder, where crop failures are more prone to occur, that witches were more associated with the Devil and considered a greater threat, i.e., being behind a crop failure.  

In the south of Europe where food was more abundant this was not always the case in how witches were thought of. Clearly we can begin to see how many factors play a part in how people will approach things.

Quote

Not satisfied with merely giving details about witchcraft, Burckhardt also evolves a theory about it. He compares the classical witch, about whom he was able to find quite a lot of material in original texts, with the witches hunted and brought to trial by followers of Institor and Sprenger in the north of Italy, in regions close to Switzerland and the Tyrol. And he does not hesitate to assert that the real source of the findings of witch-hunters in those parts was the fertile imagination of mendicant friars. He maintains, in fact, that about the Malleus and a hundred years of witch-trials conditioned people to believe in the possibility of the practices which these had condemned. Witchcraft, therefore, as described by the inquisitorial treatises, was of German origin.

'The Italian witch', he says in conclusion, 'has a job and wants to earn money. Above all she must have a good deal of sang-froid and act rationally. Not for her the hysterical visions of the witches of the North, belief in long rides through the air and so forth.'

The stregha is simply an aider and abettor of pleasure, a servant of God Eros. She finds her proper place in the works of Aretinus who describes not only witches themselves but also the objects used by courtesans to attract their loves.

...

Two great cities-Papal Rome and Naples-gave these women a home.

From page 100 in The World of the Witches by Julio Caro Baroja.

As we can see Burckhardt did not believe in fanciful stories about witches and blamed the burning times on the imaginations of the clergy. He clearly though did see how they were treated different farther north than in Rome and Naples where they thrived. Baroja goes on to explain how Burckhardt also differentiated between witches in the countryside and the sorceresses of more urban areas. The latter are the ones who had clientele among the noble classes in making love matches and doing spells of that sort.

Now I know this is about witches but we can clearly see how some Christians are afraid of Satan but others were just more concerned with living life and getting love spells done for them.


View Postnorwood1026, on 18 March 2010 - 05:02 PM, said:

In my opnion it shows that Judaism & Christianty are two very different faiths.

The most fear I believe is expressed by that one small group of Muslim men who themselves even veil their face in public in fear that an evil spirit will be breathed in. It really does not serve well to compare religions to see which is better but to recognize they all have strengths and weaknesses. To understand how some of them are shaped by their environment and how the same religion can take on two different expressions because of two different environments itself is quite fascinating.

In conclusion it has nothing to do with religion in why some people fear the Devil. The same people without Christianity would still be fearful, of the environment, of global warming, of politics, of the bomb, of others not letting them live as they wish, they would feel the world is against them either way in some form.

My wife just told me that now days when the oranges freeze that we do not blame witches or the Devil but simply expect to pay more for oranges at the grocery store.

Edited by Rosewin, 18 March 2010 - 09:34 PM.


#25    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 09:47 PM

View PostMarby, on 15 March 2010 - 11:31 PM, said:

It is my belief that Christians give Satan all this power over people because it keeps worshippers in line. He's the bogie man, the spook story.

You got it luvie..... the ultimate scare tactic   lol well they stole the idea off older religions but hey all just a scare tactic

I thought I was smart using monsters and even Freddy with Becky.....until she announced that she loves monsters and she pretnds to be Freddy....ohh good griefPosted Image .........Now? well she is bored with Freddy she now tells me there is a ghost that is in her room and plays with her toysPosted Image

I am fresh out of scare tactics for that kid...........sigh!!  Ohh nope I still use the car wash scare tactic  .....see Becky hates it when I drive through the automatic car wash...the big brushes scare her.......so if I want her to go to bed on time.if she balls at me and says NO!!.........I say - ok then let me get my keys and off to the car wash for Becky....................annnnnnnd that shuts her up and before I know it, she is in her bed teeth brushed and allPosted Image

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 18 March 2010 - 09:49 PM.

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#26    Leonardo

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 11:02 PM

View Postnorwood1026, on 15 March 2010 - 10:59 PM, said:

I’ve posted several topics on Satan/Lucifer here on UM. I think it’s because we don’t know much about him other then what the bible states.
I have always been of the mindset that Christian here in the west tend to give Satan too much power.  Christians see Satan every where these days. Western Christianity seems to be unique among monotheisms in the power that they tend to give Satan. In Judaism Satan is totally subservient to God & evil if never allowed to attain such near-omnipotent status.
In Islam Satan is either a trivial creature, not be taken
seriously, or on the last day can be forgiven. He can never be a threat to Allah. But Christians in the west have not always attained that degree of confidence in their God.
I've seen several Christians talk about how Samhain is Satan's birthday & so forth. Why do Christians tend to give Satan more power with every post? If their God is so powerful why fear this deity so much?

I believe I have posted something close to this in the past. However I've been gone for a while & would love to see what the new people have to say.

So..... What say you?

I am of the opinion that the appearance of Satan only late in the 'revelation', when reading either the Christian or Jewish scriptures, is an indication of the issue a stabilising  non-secular society, with many of the immediate threats they faced while in their formative stage now removed, has to cope with in respect of the question of "who does evil/bad come from"?

While the society is struggling to assert itself in the region it inhabits, the particular deity that society worships is 'allowed' to exhibit negative characteristics, such as rage, wrath, jealousy, etc. This identifies with the (possibly immoral/amoral) actions that society has to commit against inimical neighbours (with their own particular brand of worship) in their struggle to survive as a society.

However, once this struggle has eased or ceased, and the society becomes the dominant in that region and/or stabilises sufficiently, the requirement for the deity corresponding to their worship to exhibit these negative characteristics diminishes.

How, then, are future generations, now used to the relative ease of being in a dominant/stable society, to rationalise these aspects of the deity they worship? They no longer need their god to be wrathful, murderous or jealous. So, they 'spin' these attributes off the primary deity onto some demigod (or archangel). This allows their deity to assume the benevolent aspect more fitting their relatively stable society's needs, while holding on to the negative attributes as a fear-inducement not to abandon the worship.

Just a theory, mind you!

Edited by Leonardo, 18 March 2010 - 11:03 PM.

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#27    SlimJim22

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Posted 18 March 2010 - 11:45 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 18 March 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

I am of the opinion that the appearance of Satan only late in the 'revelation', when reading either the Christian or Jewish scriptures, is an indication of the issue a stabilising  non-secular society, with many of the immediate threats they faced while in their formative stage now removed, has to cope with in respect of the question of "who does evil/bad come from"?

While the society is struggling to assert itself in the region it inhabits, the particular deity that society worships is 'allowed' to exhibit negative characteristics, such as rage, wrath, jealousy, etc. This identifies with the (possibly immoral/amoral) actions that society has to commit against inimical neighbours (with their own particular brand of worship) in their struggle to survive as a society.

However, once this struggle has eased or ceased, and the society becomes the dominant in that region and/or stabilises sufficiently, the requirement for the deity corresponding to their worship to exhibit these negative characteristics diminishes.

How, then, are future generations, now used to the relative ease of being in a dominant/stable society, to rationalise these aspects of the deity they worship? They no longer need their god to be wrathful, murderous or jealous. So, they 'spin' these attributes off the primary deity onto some demigod (or archangel). This allows their deity to assume the benevolent aspect more fitting their relatively stable society's needs, while holding on to the negative attributes as a fear-inducement not to abandon the worship.

Just a theory, mind you!


I like that idea Leo. Makes me think of the scapegoat concept a litle bit. New rulers move into the land and the old god is demonized and turned into the scapegoat, the one to blame for all the people who stayed. He was weak and inferior and they lost. This way the fleeing tribesmen lose the hearts and minds of the people and are forced to move on rather than retake what was theirs because the deity has been superceded. People are fickle and will follow the strongest not the original necessarily. Who was the scapegoat? Satan or Azazel or are they the same?

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#28    Mr Walker

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 01:56 AM

View Postnorwood1026, on 18 March 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

Maybe I missed something some of you still haven't anwsered why Christian tend to give Satan more power then other Judeo-Christian faiths.
Ah I hadnt recognised that as the core of your question There are many posible reasons One is the point at which christianity is presently evolved It often reflects metaphorically the very real battle in humans hearts and souls between good and evil. Much modern christianity also takes into account the role of satan in the bible from genesis to revelations. this is a different version of satan to the purely jewish or the muslim variant and does possess greater free will and thus ability for harm(power)

Arguably, many christians do not see satan as a pawn of god because that is not the story the bible tells. While satan is restricted by god he retains many freedoms and the ability to act as he wishes. (at least on earth)

Secondly, and perhaps sadly, the catholic church, in creating both the concept of everlasting hell followed by  the addition of satan as master of hell by later writers gives historical satan a much greater power than he deserves biblically.

Satan, according to the bible, dies in the fires which consume and renew earth, along with all the fallen angels and the lost souls.

Thus he has no power after that  Catholicism basically changed this bibblical perspective perhaps through honest misunderstanding, or perhaps to incerase the fear factor of hell and satan, to try and scare people to convert. An irony really given that the bible clearly demonstrates that the only relationship actually possible with god must be based on love and not fear.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#29    Sherapy

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 04:09 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 18 March 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

I am of the opinion that the appearance of Satan only late in the 'revelation', when reading either the Christian or Jewish scriptures, is an indication of the issue a stabilising non-secular society, with many of the immediate threats they faced while in their formative stage now removed, has to cope with in respect of the question of "who does evil/bad come from"?

While the society is struggling to assert itself in the region it inhabits, the particular deity that society worships is 'allowed' to exhibit negative characteristics, such as rage, wrath, jealousy, etc. This identifies with the (possibly immoral/amoral) actions that society has to commit against inimical neighbours (with their own particular brand of worship) in their struggle to survive as a society.

However, once this struggle has eased or ceased, and the society becomes the dominant in that region and/or stabilises sufficiently, the requirement for the deity corresponding to their worship to exhibit these negative characteristics diminishes.

How, then, are future generations, now used to the relative ease of being in a dominant/stable society, to rationalise these aspects of the deity they worship? They no longer need their god to be wrathful, murderous or jealous. So, they 'spin' these attributes off the primary deity onto some demigod (or archangel). This allows their deity to assume the benevolent aspect more fitting their relatively stable society's needs, while holding on to the negative attributes as a fear-inducement not to abandon the worship.

Just a theory, mind you!

Sounds like you read a lot of Nietzsche. :w00t:

17. ...Wherever the will to power begins to decline, in whatever form, there is always an accompanying decline physiologically, a decadence. The divinity of this decadence, shorn of its masculine virtues and passions, is converted perforce into a god of the physiologically degraded, of the weak. Of course, they do not call themselves the weak; they call themselves "the good." . . . No hint is needed to indicate the moments in history at which the dualistic fiction of a good and an evil god first became possible. The same instinct which prompts the inferior to reduce their own god to "goodness-in-itself" also prompts them to eliminate all good qualities from the god of their superiors; they make revenge on their masters by making a devil of the latter's god.--The good god, and the devil like him--both are abortions of decadence.


http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm




#30    Marby

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Posted 19 March 2010 - 08:24 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 18 March 2010 - 09:47 PM, said:

You got it luvie..... the ultimate scare tactic lol well they stole the idea off older religions but hey all just a scare tactic

I thought I was smart using monsters and even Freddy with Becky.....until she announced that she loves monsters and she pretnds to be Freddy....ohh good griefPosted Image .........Now? well she is bored with Freddy she now tells me there is a ghost that is in her room and plays with her toysPosted Image

I am fresh out of scare tactics for that kid...........sigh!! Ohh nope I still use the car wash scare tactic .....see Becky hates it when I drive through the automatic car wash...the big brushes scare her.......so if I want her to go to bed on time.if she balls at me and says NO!!.........I say - ok then let me get my keys and off to the car wash for Becky....................annnnnnnd that shuts her up and before I know it, she is in her bed teeth brushed and all:w00t:

:w00t: Becky is officially one of the coolest kids ever. Loves monsters, wants to be Freddie, but that car wash is the ultimate in terror!

But yeah, I see Satan as nothing more than a scare tactic to keep everyone doing what the church wants them to do.





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